Author Topic: Oil change seal ring question  (Read 14390 times)

scoot

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Oil change seal ring question
« on: May 30, 2015, 02:42:37 »
I'm changing the oil in an old Mercedes.   I have all the parts but I'm really confused regarding part number 48 in the attached diagram.  Mercedes calls it a "seal"  The diameter of this little rubber ring fits snugly on the bolt that holds the oil canister to the housing, but it seals nothing.  As best as I can tell the only purpose of the little rubber ring is to keep the bolt from falling out.   The outer diameter of the rubber ring is smaller than the inner diameter of the oil filter itself.  Comments?

thanks
Scott
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

66andBlue

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2015, 04:48:52 »
Scott
take a look at reply #17 and the parts graphic here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2589
Your #48 could be either seal ring #40 or more likely #44 in the 230SL oil canister parts list; one seals the bottom of the filter and the other any drainage through the bolt hole.
Do any of the p/n correspond to what you have?
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2015, 05:24:31 »
Scott
take a look at reply #17 and the parts graphic here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2589
Your #48 could be either seal ring #40 or more likely #44 in the 230SL oil canister parts list; one seals the bottom of the filter and the other any drainage through the bolt hole.
Do any of the p/n correspond to what you have?
Yes, it corresponds to seal ring #40 and the part number matches.  If you look at the picture in reply #17 you see that there actually shows a gap between the seal and the neck of the oil filter, as if it is not touching it (which is the case).  Also the hat shaped one is held in by the pressure of the filter itself.  It's sort of self-centering but definitely not held in by #40.   My conclusion is the only point of that one is to grip the bolt so it doesn't fall out.  It's not doing anything to prevent oil from leaking out of the bolt -- that's done by the crush washer on the outside of the can...
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

ja17

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2015, 06:28:58 »
take a look at Tech Manual also scoot...........
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/Lubrication

The little o-ring seal is nested inside the metal sheet metal disc in the bottom. Yes I think the small o-ring forms a seal and also can keep the bolt in place. The washer on the bolt head outside the canister is not crush seal but rather a bearing surface for the bolt head. The bearing washer is steel..
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2015, 06:34:06 »
The little o-ring seal is nested inside the metal sheet metal disc in the bottom. Yes I think the small o-ring forms a seal and also can keep the bolt in place. The washer on the bolt head outside the canister is not crush seal but rather a bearing surface for the bolt head. The bearing washer is steel..

On my car the small O-ring only contacts (firmly) the bolt.  The outer diameter of it is signficantly smaller than the inner diameter of the filter element, so there is nothing to seal with.  And nothing in particular keeps that O-ring pressed against the filter can / the disk.  It's a friction fit on the bolt only, or at least in my application.
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

66andBlue

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2015, 18:29:42 »
So what exactly is "your application", what MB model is this?
Perhaps you got the wrong seal ring??
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 19:01:05 »
So what exactly is "your application", what MB model is this?
Perhaps you got the wrong seal ring??
It's an M189 in a W112 300SE but the parts in EPC are exactly the same.
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

kampala

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2015, 00:24:27 »
Scott,

Look at message 37 & 38 in the same link that Alfred posted.  If the filter canister is the same as a W113 -- the large donut seal at the bottom of the canister AND the small seal that I think you are referring to, both fit onto the "metal hat."  The donut seal's lip fits around the metal hat and the small seal fits inside of the metal hat and snugs against the main bolt (the inside of this small seal is against the bolt and outside is against the metal hat). 

Since you seem to be saying that the small seal only touches the bolt, are you missing the metal hat? 

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2589.msg136147#msg136147

250sl - later - manual
280sl - 1971 - Auto - LSD

Aslam

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2015, 04:04:15 »
Scott,

Look at message 37 & 38 in the same link that Alfred posted.  If the filter canister is the same as a W113 -- the large donut seal at the bottom of the canister AND the small seal that I think you are referring to, both fit onto the "metal hat."  The donut seal's lip fits around the metal hat and the small seal fits inside of the metal hat and snugs against the main bolt (the inside of this small seal is against the bolt and outside is against the metal hat). 

Since you seem to be saying that the small seal only touches the bolt, are you missing the metal hat? 
I do not have a metal hat in which to insert the small seal.  What I have in the bottom of the metal canister is a slightly raised disk that matches the large donut seal.  But there is no "inside" to that disk, nor is there a separate part number shown in EPC for the metal hat.

The canister is the same for most 6 cylinder Mercedes engines including M189, M127, M129, M130, M108, ...   Part number A 000 184 2302

Is the metal hat a part that has no separate part number and can become lost?  It would appear not to matter as there is not oil leaking there...  at least not yet...
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

ja17

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2015, 07:04:36 »
You should have the metal hat. 
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2015, 10:00:36 »
I do not have a metal hat in which to insert the small seal.  What I have in the bottom of the metal canister is a slightly raised disk that matches the large donut seal.  But there is no "inside" to that disk, nor is there a separate part number shown in EPC for the metal hat.

The canister is the same for most 6 cylinder Mercedes engines including M189, M127, M129, M130, M108, ...   Part number A 000 184 2302

Is the metal hat a part that has no separate part number and can become lost?  It would appear not to matter as there is not oil leaking there...  at least not yet...


Hi, Scoot,

The metal hat is part of the oil filter bowl and not listed separately.
The inner lip of the larger seal actually sits under the hat flange.
The small bolt seal sits between the hat and that small seat at the bottom of the filter bowl.

naj
68 280SL

scoot

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But I don't have a Metal Hat !!!! :-(
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2015, 14:11:06 »
Thanks for the pictures Naj, I don't have a hat.  Is that a hat removed from a bowl (or one that fell out)? 
Joe - does it matter if I lack the hat? 

I'll find a junker and get the bowl off that and see if it has a hat.  Do I just need the hat or the whole bowl? 
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2015, 18:59:26 »

Thanks for the pictures Naj, I don't have a hat.  Is that a hat removed from a bowl (or one that fell out)? 
Joe - does it matter if I lack the hat? 


Scoot,

Thats a hat removed from the filter bowl. The hats don't just fall out. They have to be driven out with a drift or similar implement and can get damaged beyond use if not careful.

i prefer to replace the seals without removing the hat. Takes some perseverance.

i think it will be easier to find another filter bowl.
naj
68 280SL

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 02:16:42 »
In the 4th picture, the hat sitting outside of the can, the hat is upside-down, correct?  What I mean is you put the rubber thing inside the bowl of the hat, flip the hat over, and mount it flush with the inside of the oil canister.  If that is the case, how is it possible to replace the rubber seal without driving the hat out of the oil canister???
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

66andBlue

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2015, 05:16:00 »
Scott,
looks like you ignored the advice you received from Kampala (reply #7) : "Look at message 37 & 38 in .... ": http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2589.msg136147#msg136147
Jonny B and 280sl1968 describe how you can remove the "hat" to get to replace the old seal and install a new one.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2015, 06:17:02 »
Scott,
looks like you ignored the advice you received from Kampala (reply #7) : "Look at message 37 & 38 in .... ": http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2589.msg136147#msg136147
Jonny B and 280sl1968 describe how you can remove the "hat" to get to replace the old seal and install a new one.
I saw it but didn't retain it.   So once the hat is "out" nothing but the filter really ever holds it back in?  Doesn't sound like an as-designed approach for MB.  Or they expect it to last forever...   Whatever, I'll try it when I find another canister at a junkyard...
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2015, 10:35:10 »
In the 4th picture, the hat sitting outside of the can, the hat is upside-down, correct?  What I mean is you put the rubber thing inside the bowl of the hat, flip the hat over, and mount it flush with the inside of the oil canister.  If that is the case, how is it possible to replace the rubber seal without driving the hat out of the oil canister???

Yes, the hat is upside down, note the screwdriver marks on it when trying to drive it out.
The old seals go quite hard and may break up when you try to remove it. I use an 'L' shaped bit that you get in a 4 pc. O ring tool set..
The new seal is soft and pliable and can be squeezed into place. Takes some perseverance as I said before.
Naj
68 280SL

scoot

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Re: Oil change seal ring question
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2015, 13:52:52 »
Yes, the hat is upside down, note the screwdriver marks on it when trying to drive it out.
The old seals go quite hard and may break up when you try to remove it. I use an 'L' shaped bit that you get in a 4 pc. O ring tool set..
The new seal is soft and pliable and can be squeezed into place. Takes some perseverance as I said before.
So the MB intention in this design is to never remove the hat and get the new seal into the hat after you chip the old one out?  It seems like the cheap set of dental picks I got at Harbor Freight might be useful for this...
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California