Author Topic: Tire Choices  (Read 16806 times)

Ron500E

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Tire Choices
« on: April 02, 2015, 03:01:00 »
What is the general wisdom regarding tires in the USA. I realize that some tires available in Europe may not be available here due to DOT regulations.
I have narrowed it down to the following:
Continental Vanco 185R 14 @ $91.00 each
or
Michelin MXV-P 185R 14 @ $315.00 each.
A big difference.

Thoughts?
Thanks,

Ron

Jkalplus1

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2015, 12:14:52 »
I used MXVPs on my 190e (I know, different size), and it was the best set of tires I've had for the car.  You can also check out Vredestein Sprints and Coker Phoenix available on this continent, in our size.

mdsalemi

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 12:45:57 »
Don't forget the Coker Phoenix, or the Vredestein Sprint Classic.

If you expand your size choice from 185-14 to P195-14 the selection broadens a bit...and even 205/70 is not uncommon on our Pagodas.
Michael Salemi
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Panzer82

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 02:16:47 »
I think I've read every tire thread on sl113.org in the past few weeks, as I need to replace the 20 year old Pirellis on my 'new' 250SL.

Michael, you make a strong case for the Cokers, but I've spoken with enough local Pagoda friends who don't think as highly of them as you do, so I've ruled them out. Maybe you can take me for a ride in your car in Blacklick in the Fall and I'll understand. Cost isn't really the concern, as I'll probably replace whatever tires I get due to age before they wear out from tons of miles. It would be great to have the true, original size for driving dynamics, I absolutely believe in that.

I bought 195/75 R14 Michelin Defenders for my 230SL last Summer, on the recommendation of the local Pagoda owners referenced above. I didn't love the way they felt at highway speed... could they have felt 'twitchy'? I think that's the best way to describe them, at higher speed especially, 70 - 75mph... they felt almost unstable if I made anything but a super soft, gradual lane change at those speeds, which my little 230SL would do without complaint, for hours on end.

So I've been reading tire reviews on TireRack and all the posts here. It's hard to relate someone's experience with a tire on say a Honda or a Subaru posted to the TireRack website... but I saw a couple Alfa Spider drivers who were fond of a particular Khumo. Amazingly, I'm actually considering Khumos... never thought I'd do that.

While the Vanco tires mentioned in the earlier post are the 'original' size for our cars... we shouldn't really be putting van and light truck tires on Pagodas, should we? I had a set of those on my Volkswagen Westfalia, I can't imagine running the same tire on a Pagoda.

As usual, I walk away with more questions than answers... but certainly looking forward to figuring it all out.
You might find this interesting... I was at a friend's shop this week, big Pagoda guy, I walked around and looked at the tires on the four other Pagodas that were there. On one car... a very early 1967 280SL... like, serial number lower than 10, was still wearing its original Firestone Phoenix white walls, I about keeled over... took a couple of pics:

Garry

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 02:27:54 »
Maybe the topic of tires is a good one for one of you to throw around as a topic at PUB, I know a few of you have done quite a bit of research on the subject.

Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
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gimp

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 11:57:10 »
Ron
I have a set of Hankook Mileage Plus II 195/75/14 with W/W
They feel & look good
Frank

mdsalemi

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2015, 19:42:55 »
Michael, you make a strong case for the Cokers, but I've spoken with enough local Pagoda friends who don't think as highly of them as you do

Panzer,

It's really simple. At the time of restoration, I purchased a set of what I thought would be good tires, in the 205/70 size. From my days with British cars many years ago, on the Mini I went from 145-10 to 165/70-10; on my Austin I went from 145-13 to 165/70-13. On my Datsun 510, I did the same as the Austin. Later, my BMW 320i came with 185/70-13. So, I was kind of in the "70-series" thought pattern. The tires I got were Pirelli P600. As it turned out, I had a bit of "rubbing" with that tire size; and the spare did NOT fit, when inflated. S'ok, I lived with it--and bought any old thing that fit as a spare.

I had no driving experience on any other Pagoda, and thus no tire experience either. However, my observations on the Pirelli were much like you observed with yours--some float, even the feeling of instability. I could say it felt as if the chassis/body were completely disconnected from the tires; it would seem that the body would have to "catch up" to the rolling tires when going over certain terrain. I was thinking this was not as designed--and every element of my chassis was new. All rubber, bushings, shocks, springs, tie rods, etc. etc.

When you read a little history of the Pagoda specifications (this is where others now, begin to say nonsense) of the Pagoda, the ONLY radial tire of the era, the Michelin X, was specifically evaluated and rejected as a tire for the Pagoda. The ostensible reason was the sidewalls were too soft. Chief engineer (that wasn't actually his title but it'll work here) Rudi Uhlenhaut worked with both Phoenix (the German Firestone) and Continental (second source) to come up with what he called semi-radials; tires with both radial and bias plies in their construction; tires that had much stiffer sidewalls by design, than Michelin X radials. That's all history that I did not invent. Where some people say this story falls apart is that later in the production, conventional radial tires were fitted, not the Firestone Phoenix or Conti RA60.

Back to me--after a year or two of this floating experience, I ran across Tom Sargeant, and he had the [then new] Coker Phoenix, which were "designed and made in conjunction with the German Mercedes Old Timer Club". Again, I didn't make this up. Tom's car drove much better than mine, and I bought a set when they were only $189 each. One of them was rejected and replaced as it could not be properly balanced on a Hunter to my satisfaction. Clearly, from my balance experience, they don't measure up to a mass-produced tire in terms of consistency of construction. However, they do indeed offer a good ride on my car, and a vastly improved ride over the Pirellis. I don't know how they would compare on my car to a set of Vredesteins Sprint Classics, Conti Vanco. I don't know if they are "the best" or not. People seem to be happy with very inexpensive tires, so cost does not seem to be a factor here.

What has happened over the years since I bought my set of Cokers is that the cost has skyrocketed. I think they are now something like $260.00 each. The Michelin MXV-P, once a fairly common, and reasonably priced sporty tire, has moved to limited production and its price too, has gone up drastically--to $315.00...more than the Coker Phoenix.

While I think some people have had issues with the Cokers (particularly with the first generation w/o the rub strip which was added) my experience is good. They are essentially hand made, and have greater variability than they probably should--but that's what a good balance will correct. I suspect any lower-volume tire might have the same issues. Coker took one back on exchange w/o issue when I told them it wouldn't balance on a Hunter GSP. I also found a tire on my Explorer a few years ago that wouldn't balance on a Hunter, and based upon my current experience wouldn't buy any Hankooks.

There are many people as annoyed at the Coker price, than they are with the tires (ones they don't have or have never owned). The Sprint Classics are $163.00, about the same as the Cokers when I started--and that's not inexpensive either.

Just to be different, I suspect I might go with "added white wall" Sprint Classics for the next tire-up, which will probably be in the summer of 2016...if they are still available!  :o
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
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66andBlue

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 01:46:35 »
Time has come to replace the old tires and I am pondering the same questions.
If one wants to stay within the same tire circumference - to avoid having to recalibrate the speedometer and odometer - then the choices are very limited. There are only three 185HR-14 tires and another there in the 195/75-14 size.
The price range is huge, from $50 to $315 per tire (without tax and shipping).
However, what concerns me is the tread design and speed rating. The three 185 HR-14 all have a tread that reminds me of "winter" or at least "all-year" tires. The Michelin is the only one with 2 longitudinal grooves. The Kumho and Hankook have a more modern tread design for water channeling and the Coker Classic is close - BUT its maximum speed rating is only "P" or 93 mph (150 km/h)!!  
While an "H" (130 mph or 210 km/h) rating is not necessary, a "T" (118 mph or 190 km/h) is desirable.
Considering the price for these tires and their specifications the Kumho looks quite attractive.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Garry

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 03:13:28 »
I really like my Coker Classics and at 150kph, it is an instant loss of licence for 6 months so I am not ever going there.  Max speed in the centre of Australia is 130kph but most areas its a max of 110kph.

I put Kumho on my Jag whilst in the USA just to get it through the roadworthy.  They were horrible on that car and i ended up junking them when I got the car home and went for a basic Dunlop.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 03:25:33 by Garry »
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

Panzer82

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 03:15:54 »
I know you're not making any of that up Michael, I'm well aware of the story and the importance, I believe, of using original spec tires whenever possible, as the cars were made / designed / engineered for them.

A good friend of mine has a 1960 Alfa Giulietta Spider and goes on and on about how much better his car behaves now that he finally found the hen's tooth tires in exactly the right size, ridiculously skinny little things, but he loves them and the car performs well with them... whatever brand and size they are.

I didn't see your post until a couple of minutes ago... I bought a set of Khumos with white stripes this afternoon. The good news is.. if I don't like them... I'll put them on my set of alloy wheels and perhaps try the Cokers on my steel wheels after all.

  

Benz Dr.

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 05:38:58 »
In some cases, poor handling is due to worn steering componets that are often overlooked. First thing that comes to mind is a worn idle arm bushing. I just replaced that and the actual idler arm ( new one ) on a 230SL and the difference was instant.
This is not an easy job if you have the early header system on a 230SL as this car had but it's considerably easier on a 280SL. I've found that a long, right hand, sweeping curve, will make the right front wheel move all over the place as there is very little side thrust on the tire at that point. Known as '' bump steer '' it can put you into the ditch if you aren't attentive. If you find that you are constantly making corrections while driving, and particularily while making those entrance ramp curves, you probably have a worn idler arm bushing. Prices are high for these parts on 230SL's but they are available

Another odd result:
As you fix loose parts in your steering gear, end and radial play will be taken up. The more play you take out, the more it will magnify the play in anything that's still worn. You alone are responsible for putting a safe car on the road - the very least you want to have is good brakes, tires, lights, and steering.


 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
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mdsalemi

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 11:59:57 »
Coker Classic is close - BUT its maximum speed rating is only "P" or 93 mph (150 km/h)!!  
While an "H" (130 mph or 210 km/h) rating is not necessary, a "T" (118 mph or 190 km/h) is desirable.

The "Coker Phoenix" set I purchased some years ago is an H-rated tire; this isn't to be confused with the "Coker Classic". You can see the size of the Phoenix on the photo at the Coker website, "185R14-80H"
I don't know why they specify this tire outside of what was the standard at the time; maybe it's new DOT rules. I would call this in the old terms, a "185HR14-80" They also don't bother to mention it in the specifications, which they should. Come to think of it, they don't mention much of anything like load rating, etc. which is all embossed on the tire itself.

https://www.cokertire.com/185r14-phoenix-3-4-whitewall-tire.html

That Classic (not the Phoenix) has a nice, if not exaggerated look, with the wide whitewalls. Kind of nice, like some of the old studio shots of the early Pagoda development!

At about 78 MPH--which is a reasonably safe (safe from the police that is!) speed in Michigan, I'm turning 4,000 RPM and the noise from wind, tires, engine and everything else is pretty deafening. That's well below the P rating and H rating, and about as fast as I'd like to go for any sustained drive. No fooling, when I drive a distance (such as to PUB) I'll have earplugs in to soften things a bit.

Tread design is a whole different issue. No two tires across the board (except perhaps racing slicks!  ;)) have identical tread patterns. With the Pagoda, I don't drive in the snow or too much in the cold, and the only time I'm on wet pavement is when I'm caught somewhere unaware. It isn't intentional. I would assume also, at least for Alfred, that the dearth of rain in California even without the drought makes wet-pavement driving rare.

One thing is certain--we don't have a lot of choices out there.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 12:04:58 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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thelews

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2015, 12:12:03 »
hard to beat the sharper steering that comes with the Vreds.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
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1970 Porsche 911E
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Ulf

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2015, 15:02:50 »
Pardon my intrusion into an existing tire-thread, but does anyone have experience with the Vredestein SPORTRAC 5
(size 195/70 R14 91H)?
The Vredestein Sprint Classic in 185/14 are out of my price range (other financial obligations) and my 205/70/14 Tiger Paws are starting to feel too slippery when wet despite there being plenty of thread left (guess the rubber is getting old). Would love an intermediate size like the 195's, but unsure whether this choice is too modern...
Any opinions would be greatly appreciated

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2015, 21:16:35 »
I had Vredestein Sprint Classics on my previous toy and loved them, but this time, I'm installing (they are on order at Fritz's Tire in Arundel, Maine) Diamond Back AS4 195/75R14 with 2 1/2" wide white walls.  They are Hankook tires with the wide white walls vulcanized in place by Diamond Back.  Fritz is the New England distributor for Diamond Back Tires.

Tom Kizer
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mdsalemi

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 11:52:06 »
I think we have at least one member here who has had Diamond Back (they do custom!) place WW on Vredestein Sprint Classics.
Michael Salemi
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ghenne

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Re: Tire Choices 2015
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2015, 13:41:19 »
Just checked my tires - they are 9 years old. Overdue for replacing!

1. What are people buying these days? The Vredestein Sprint Classics seem to be mentioned often. Should I consider anything else?

2. I've always used 205/70 on my Pagoda: I like the slightly beefier look. The original size is 185HR14. Has anyone compared the handling of the two sizes?

simonarn

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 13:54:06 »
I have literally just come off the phone to my garage having ordered the Vredestein classics for 100 chf abt 107 usd plus fitting. i like the tread style of the tyre.
If its a total disaster I will suck it up and go back to the Michelins

Erik

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2015, 10:57:04 »
When I bought my 230 (import from US) it was fitted with Michelins that didn't have the proper size.

I looked around and finally chose the Vredestein Sprint Classic.

They fit perfect, give good grip and comfort, have a retro tyre-design and were (in Belgium) among the cheapest.
If you can buy them in the U.S., don't look any further.

Good luck,
Erik


ghenne

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2015, 08:35:22 »
Best price I can find today on Vredestein Sprint Classis 205/70 14 is $227 each:

http://www.vulcantire.com/cgi-bin/tiresearch.cgi?stock=10824&f=sprint_classic_t.cst


Jkalplus1

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 12:29:25 »
But only 144$ in the 185R14 size!  Did you try your car with 205s?  I cannot help but think the steering must be compromised at low speeds. I am changing mine soon -if I can only get off my ass and reinstall my rechromed bits and put the car back on the road!

Peter van Es

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2015, 07:06:10 »
I have the Vredesteins in 185R14 size and am very happy with them. Excellent tyres, great looking, and good performance. And, my speedo is 100% accurate!
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

Larry & Norma

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2015, 08:41:21 »
Ditto with Peter :)
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Naj ✝︎

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2015, 13:18:09 »

Best price I can find today on Vredestein Sprint Classis 205/70 14 is $227 each:



Are these for your Pagoda?
Have a look at my picture. The one on the left is a 185/80x14 Falken, the one on the right also a 185/80x14 but a Vredestein.

They are plenty wide enough!

Naj
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 13:33:04 by Naj »
68 280SL

mdsalemi

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Re: Tire Choices
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2015, 13:29:37 »
Are these for your Pagoda?
Have a look at my picture. The one on the left is a 185x14 Falken, the one on the right also a 185x14 but a Vredestein.
They are plenty wide enough!
Naj

Naj, curiousity: precisely what size with aspect ratio, and what model is the Falken you have? Didn't have any luck in finding them in USA so I must have had some data incorrect...
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid