PM's for Support or Questions

[Peter van Es]

I've had a signature under my posts stating that I do not want to answer questions sent to me by PM or e-mail.

I want to explain why I don't want PMs for support. Even though I've put in my signature that you shouldn't PM me for support or questions,  I still get PMs. I know that others here who share their knowledge have similar trouble with this, so I thought I'd take a little time to explain why this is inappropriate and rude and should be avoided unless specifically asked for.

We're volunteers. We do this in our spare time. Most of us do not have much spare time, and when we do, we offer it up to people who need help. We choose who we answer, who we have the knowledge to help, who we have the time to properly help solve or address their problem.

And in public, everyone benefits. Future users who encounter the same problem will find the posts when they're public, so if you get helped in a public topic, it isn't just you that benefits, it's everyone in the same position as you.

Such generosity is rare, even in a volunteer community. Now, if you send us a PM, there's quite a few things different:

• It stops being about whether we choose to use our time to help you. Bear in mind we're doing this in our spare time (or some of us, doing this instead of earning money, so think about that, you might actually be costing us money to help you), you're expecting us to put aside our choice for yours.
• It only helps you. It's selfish, because the same advice may well help others but you're expecting us to help you and only you.
• It's impatient, because it doesn't allow us to go away and think about the problem and respond when it is convenient for us (given that it is being done in our time), instead it's expecting an answer sooner rather than later, and it also doesn't allow other people who are knowledgeable (often much more than I) to add their opinions and experience.

That's why I say that if you want help, or your question answered, you'll need to post it publicly.

I don't know exactly how others feel, but I'm fairly certain there are a lot of people who are getting fed up with this. I'm posting this here to let you know why it's irritating, and as a request to generally stop it if at all possible.

Thanks for reading, and to those of who don't go out and PM people because you're impatient, we appreciate it.

Oh yes, and those of you who search for something before asking a question... better yet. The search facility is excellent, but you need to ensure that you are at the top level of the forum to search all sections... and you need to be a little intelligent in phrasing your query. Nine times out of 10 the answer will have already been answered, and sometimes it is written up well in the Technical Manual.

[Flyair]

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa…..

[Neil Thompson]

Peter, sent you a PM,

 just kidding!!

Neil

[Benz Dr.]

I get PM questions and public questions all the time. To me they're about the same things although there are some things that are best discussed off any forum you might be on.

While it can be time consuming and once in a while anoying, I generally respond, eventually.

[Garry]

That is an interesting email and Dan's reply is also interesting.

I generally will not respond to questions if I know the answer but see that the asker has posted more that about 25 times and is not a full member, i.e they will not put in a few dollars to support the Group so I generally will not take too much effort answering but in reply will ask if they will become a full member. Like Peter said there are a few on here that are really knowledgeable, like Dan and many others that give up a lot of time answering questions and we should be very grateful for that. 

[Benz Dr.]

I keep seeing this thing about people not paying to be a member and really have to wonder about that. We've provided an open forum for people to post on free of charge and then ask them to be a member to reap all of the rewards. Aside from the us versus them atmosphere it creates, it's also a bit of talking out of both sides of the mouth. If you offer something free, don't ask people to pay up or risk having the rope ladder to the tree fort pulled away from them.


 Frankly, if the directors or excutive of this cub are not willling to answer questions relating to the runmning of this operation, they probably shouldn't be here. I'm not privy to what sort of questions we are talking about so I'm sure some are nonsense, as are some of the ones I get, so those don't count. If it really is a PITA for you, well..............

I don't get paid for my answers either.

[Garry]

Dan,

As you know, no one gets paid and I don't think anyone is seeking such or concerned about putting in effort to ensure that the Group and its Forum continue to run smoothly and seamlessly to the majority but someone has to pay for this forum to be up and running and hosted somewhere and if a member feels that he is getting value from the forum then it would be nice if he contributed to the cost of running the Group (read Tech Manual here) and the Forum. He doesn't have to but if no one paid then there would be no Group or Forum. I don't think Peter was talking about being questioned about the running of the Group or Forum at all.  It was more to do with people asking vehicle related questions on PM's but not posting the question on the Forum so that all can see the question and the answer. I know I have had some and usually suggest that they post on the Forum and see if others can give a better answer than I can. I personally have gained a huge amount from just reading about other peoples problems and the solutions and often I will go to my car and look at the parts involved just to get an understanding of the vehicle and also to check that I don't also have the same problem.

I find it very odd (and a bit selfish) that someone can be a member of the forum and have sought advice and in some cases, asked more than 100 questions but do not think that he or she may have got some value from the forum such that they would like the Forum to continue and thus put in something to assist in the cost of the hosting and insurances so that he/she continues to be able to draw advice from others.  If a person is only looking and occasionally asking questions but prefers to remain as a non contributor that is fine.  Additionally some contribute lots of information that is of assistance to others but they also chooses to not contribute to the running costs and I can also understand that as well but there are some who take everything but give nothing and those are usually the ones that also send the PM's as well.

I know there are two very opposed thoughts on this and the answer lies somewhere in the middle but as the Forum turns from an online Group to where there are gatherings occurring around the world now annually, the funds that are gained above the costs could perhaps be put back into assisting in the cost to hosting a gathering or as suggested somewhere else, in providing 2 years Full Membership for the cost of one. This is surely for discussion on the Full Member Board at some point in the future on what the Full Members want.

And just so we know what we are talking about here, these are the stats that exclude inactive members.

Basic members and number if Post

100-200 posts   17 Basic Members
200-300 posts   10      "
300-400 posts    3       "
400-500 posts    3       "
500-600 posts    5       "
900-1000 posts  1 Member

No doubt several of those have forgotten to renew

[Peter van Es]

For me the reason for posting is that, even though I have had this signature for many years, I still get PMs or e-mails asking me things of general interest (what should I do with my car, how much do you think it is worth, how do you fix X, how do you upload a photograph). Everytime I need to compose an answer asking them to post it on the forum, so that the question AND the answer benefit everyone.

A PM or e-mail about a personal type thing (can you retrieve my password) is no problem, and I'll deal with that.

Dan, if you get PM's or e-mails with questions about a something of general interest, you should also ask these people to post it on the forum. They are not at all the same as a public question. For the reasons I outlined in the post below. That way, others can chime in, others can benefit from the answer, and if you wait two days, most posts will have been answered by others. Asking for that kind of help in a PM or e-mail is a selfish thing...

I'm not concerned at all about paying membership, nor about the people who've asked 100 questions... and are still a basic member. We designed this group that way, it's a kind of honour system.

We currently have 2596 members, of which 1207 were, at one point or another, full member. Currently we have 670 fullmembers in good standing. The other 537 probably let their membership lapse because they lost interest, sold their car, stopped visiting the forum... that's all fine.

The fact of the matter is that the full membership is still increasing year-on-year, and the success of events like P-50 Williamsburg, the 50th celebration in Australia, and the European Events show that the Group is very healthy.

Peter

[Tomnistuff]

I sometimes (quite often, in fact) ask questions on the forum.  I rarely PM unless it`s an emergency and the answer can come from only one person.  I also try not to ask a question until after I have unsuccessfully searched for the answer in several places, including off this site, in the BBB, the Haynes manual and the Chilton`s manual.  Often I even search photos in the restorer`s galleries for answers.

I find that this site and the people who participate in it are of inestimable value in the process of maintaining and/or restoring a Pagoda.

Curiously, to me at least, I find that while the Technical Manual has tons of valuable information about very complicated issues on these cars, some very basic but valuable information is not in the Technical Manual, or for that matter, in the BBB, Chilton's or Haynes manuals, initial build tie-rod length, for example.  Andy Burns helped me with that one.  As I learn these things and put my car back together, I will try to put some of the basic information in the TM that I think needs to be there.

If anyone ever gets upset by my questions, please let me know and I will cease and desist.

By the way, Peter, until this thread, I never before noticed your "miniature signature" about not sending PMs.  Maybe it should be in BOLD RED LETTERS.  At my age, I can barely read print that small, and only if I look for it.  Just teasing.

Tom Kizer

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Peter, I recommend you formulate only one response to unwanted PM’s then all you need to do is copy and paste it without wasting anymore of your valuable time.

This thread took me back some 50 years when I first started my engineering carrier in Canada. My Chief Engineer had to attend to some serious field issues in Canada’s first Heavy Water Plant and reassigned his projects to various Senior Engineers. As Chief Draftsman at the time I had 18 people report to me, in addition he (my Chief Engineer) ask me to look after several Junior Engineers during his absence. Make a long story short. As time went on I came close to a nervous breakdown due to the bombardment of questions I was now faced with.

It was so bad that my hands and feet started to swell, I ended up having to stay home for a few days since walking was so painful. It gave me time to think and how I would remedy this unbearable situation.

On my return to the office I called a meeting and told everyone the following;

“Starting today I will entertain no questions whatsoever unless you have at least 2 solutions to your question as to what should be done to resolve it.” If after discussing your resolve I cannot agree then we shall see how your question can be resolved”

Prior to this my office door was like a revolving door, after my meeting people started to think for themselves some even expressed thanks for pointing them in this direction. I learned then that all some people need is a little push in the right direction. Foe me anyway it worked like a charm. Needless to say I was able to concentrate on my workload again.

[ghenne]

Great story!

“Starting today I will entertain no questions whatsoever unless you have at least 2 solutions to your question as to what should be done to resolve it.” If after discussing your resolve I cannot agree then we shall see how your question can be resolved”

[Benz Dr.]

For me the reason for posting is that, even though I have had this signature for many years, I still get PMs or e-mails asking me things of general interest (what should I do with my car, how much do you think it is worth, how do you fix X, how do you upload a photograph). Everytime I need to compose an answer asking them to post it on the forum, so that the question AND the answer benefit everyone.

A PM or e-mail about a personal type thing (can you retrieve my password) is no problem, and I'll deal with that.

Dan, if you get PM's or e-mails with questions about a something of general interest, you should also ask these people to post it on the forum. They are not at all the same as a public question. For the reasons I outlined in the post below. That way, others can chime in, others can benefit from the answer, and if you wait two days, most posts will have been answered by others. Asking for that kind of help in a PM or e-mail is a selfish thing...

I'm not concerned at all about paying membership, nor about the people who've asked 100 questions... and are still a basic member. We designed this group that way, it's a kind of honour system.

We currently have 2596 members, of which 1207 were, at one point or another, full member. Currently we have 670 fullmembers in good standing. The other 537 probably let their membership lapse because they lost interest, sold their car, stopped visiting the forum... that's all fine.

The fact of the matter is that the full membership is still increasing year-on-year, and the success of events like P-50 Williamsburg, the 50th celebration in Australia, and the European Events show that the Group is very healthy.

Peter

Some questions I get are from my friends or customers - I'm not sharing that with anyone. Other questions are general in nature and get a general reply but there are those questions that this forum will never get an answer to.  I know the answer but you will ONLY get it by PM. How to get into a locked car comes to mind as well as a few others. You don't think I'm actually going to tell everything I know do you?

[Peter van Es]

Some questions I get are from my friends or customers - I'm not sharing that with anyone. Other questions are general in nature and get a general reply but there are those questions that this forum will never get an answer to.  I know the answer but you will ONLY get it by PM. How to get into a locked car comes to mind as well as a few others. You don't think I'm actually going to tell everything I know do you?

Dan, why would you not share something of general interest on the forum that you would share by PM?

Peter

[Benz Dr.]

Why? Because there are lurkers who hange out on this site that don't need to know how to get into someone's car.  That's not something that I consider to be a thing that people who don't need to know, should know. If someone wants to know how to do this I might tell them if I know who they are or they properly identify who they are. Everyone else can get a locksmith, I won't tell you because it's very easy to do and leaves no trace of entry.


Aside from making cars easier to steal..........lets see. Maybe I don't want to?  If a customer asks me a question then that answer is for them. They could just as easily use my own email address to contact me, or should I share that too? I figured out a long time ago thatvery few are going to buy new parts from me so it's not like I'm expecting them to do that for some perceived good deed that I did around here. Anyone could easily buy all kinds of new parts through me by going to K&K and asking that I get the credit for the sale, but hey, if you can't figure that out on your own I can't help you anyways.

Haven't I given to this place just like others have? Why do I need to share the odd PM post on the forum?  Besides, most of my PM is private. I did mention that didn't I ?   Besides, it's probably already been covered 20 times.

[Peter van Es]

Of course Dan, you can use PM's for private conversation. That's not the issue. And I see your point about providing info on getting into cars etc. And finally, it is your own decision to answer, or not, questions in PM's.

I just tried to indicate why I will not deal with questions asked via PM: precisely because it deprives the community, the Pagoda SL Group, of the benefit of the exchange.

By the way: your e-mail address is public, underneath each message you post, as part of your signature. That makes it easier to contact you for business.

Peter

[Benz Dr.]

I'm aware of how it all works. I think it's fair to say that I probably share more than most would.