Author Topic: Swap engine  (Read 7903 times)

Ancedes

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Swap engine
« on: August 27, 2013, 13:54:23 »
I own a 1967 Fintail 200 and am in the process to remove the engine to put it into my 1956 190SL. I bought a 230 with a good engine to place into my 200, having an excellent body and interior. I thought the swap should be easy, but I encountered few problems. The 230 radiator frame had to be enlarged and the crankshaft pulley had to be modified in cutting one groove, interfering with the sway bar. I think the rest will be easy to fit.
André Hudon

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"Unterzylindrig" (to few cylinders)
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 16:59:38 »
A common observation. ::)
The modular construction system of Mercedes passenger cars (and other carmakers perhaps too) often gives us the wrong imagination that criss-cross replacement of parts or complete components might be an easy task.
Not so for an inline six into a W110 chassis. 8)  For the incorporation of the M180 the front body structure of the W110 was thoroughly modified by the factory. The front cross member is different and the radiator surround also in order to make space for the deviating radiator assembly.

This is not a too easy swap for a shading tree mechanic anymore but can be done of course. The easiest would be to have the complete donor car by hand, which I understood you already have… ;)

My recommendation: don’t do it. :o
If your W110 200 is really as excellent (body and interior) as you describe, leave the car stock as is.
The 200 engine in your 190 would only be of a partial help since it is not the original engine for your SL and would only reduce the value of your +50 year old car. Your 190 SL is only correct with a 121.921 or 121.928 engine (numbers from my old memories, not absolutely sure here) but nothing else. You cannot turn a 200 engine easily into a 190 SL engine although the 5-bearing engine might deliver a smoother run than the old 3-bearing M121. :o :o

My 2 cents: keep the (beautiful) W110 stock and overhaul your old 190 SL engine or get a correct one.
On the other side …
…you could place the M180 in-line six in your 190 …;
there was one (or a few) 220 SL (190 SL 2.2) factory prototype with a 220 SE engine available. This would provide the proper refinement that the 190 probably misses.  :D ;D 8)

Or: get rid of the 190 and go hunt after a Pagoda right away… ;D 8)
But leave the W110 as is.


Achim
(4 MBs, none with too few cylinders)
Achim
(Germany)

garymand

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 17:57:32 »
Well said.
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, 560SEL, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

Ancedes

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 13:55:06 »
You are absolutely right, but my pleasure in this hobby is to improve performances without altering the look. 
The 190SL engine will be kept in order to put it back if the next owner wants it. The modifications are easy, both engines sharing the same block. The manifold studs must be shortened and the valve cover breather to be relocalized or replaced to a banjo type.
The 230 radiator is already installed along with the engine. Tricky but challenging. The 230 body was sold to a guy who owns a 220 engine to put in. I did not reserve the front frame surrounding the radiator.
About your comment to switch to a Pagoda, to me it is a matter of taste and not to offense anybody, but I don't  like the square lines of the carrosserie.
André Hudon

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 18:52:52 »
I would put the 230 engine in the 190 SL as a tribute to the works 220SL (That very car is now in Australia I understand). You may have to use a 220 ponton oil pan and oil pump.

If I were you, I would try to fit an early euro 500 engine in your w111. You may be able to fit it without any structural modification if you use the right parts. I did fit a 560 motor in my Pagoda with a manual transmission, I did not have to make any changes to the car's structure. The story is here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15521.0

Engine swaps is not everybody's cup of tea, so be ready for critics. As far as I'm concerned, I like tinkering and like you, improving performance without altering the look. And I'm having a blast each time I drive my Pagoda!

Ancedes

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 22:59:22 »
I am an active member of 190SL Group for more than 8 years but never heard of a 220 engine in a 190SL. I saw Lexus V8 and MB 200 only.
It is difficult for me to figure out a 6 in line inside a 190SL without piercing the hood.
I own a W110 which is shorter than a W111 at least for the engine compartment, a larger engine will not fit without major mods.
After the transmission installation today, now the fan rubs against the bottom of the radiator. Some works for tomorrow !
Thanks all for your input.
André Hudon

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2013, 03:12:37 »
In fact there were two Mercedes 220sl made, chassis type w127. They made a recess of 15 cm in the bulkhead to fit the M180 engine.  There is an article about them here: http://benz-books.com/blog/314/mercedes-220sl-alternative-190sl-1950s/

The M117 V8 engine alloy block is shorter and same weight as the 6 cylinders. It fits without modifications wherever the L6 fits. It would sit fine in a W110 230. In your car, I guess it would need the same modifications as you need to do to fit the 6 cylinder.

m300cab

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2013, 15:26:15 »
check out the new mercedes benz club magazine
someone just put a Ford Engine into a Pagoda :o
Michael Parlato

Ancedes

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 13:52:17 »
Everything is installed and after several modifications the fan clears the radiator sufficiently. I started the 230 engine and it worked fine even without a choke. The 200 engine had a manual choke but the 230 carbs had an electric one, I did not transfer.
I am unable to get in gears, the clutch slave cylinder is not retracting the pressure plate to disengage the disc. I had flushed the hydraulic system several times using the brake oil pressure, but the clutch pedal did not come back up. I installed a spring to skip this problem momentarily.
I will adjust today the slave travel close to the pressure plate release point and remove the clutch master cylinder to check any leak sending the oil to the reservoir, preventing the residual pressure to push up the pedal.
André Hudon

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2013, 14:04:22 »
Hi, good progress!

I'm curious about the modifications you had to make for the fan to clear the radiator. Did you move the radiator forward? Can you post pictures? I'm asking because I have as a long term plan to fit an alloy block M117 in a W110 (like I did in my Pagoda and my W111 Coupe). I was considering a 230 as a donor, because the fan and the crank pulley of the M117 fall at the same place as the ones of the L6, so I was figuring that the radiator set up of the 230 will be perfect. Now, if there is an easy way to do that on a 4cyl car, this would enlarge my possibilities when it come to source the project car.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Ancedes

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 22:45:10 »
Yes, I had to move the radiator inside the front frame, about 3" forward. you will find the pictures and progress on this site.
http://forums.190slgroup.com/showthread.php?9841-Fintail-engine-pics&p=83259#post83259
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 23:01:36 by Ancedes »

Ancedes

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Re: Swap engine
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2013, 00:37:20 »
I had to remove the radiator after a 10 minute ride when the water temperature gauge went to 225 deg. I put water into the upper pipe but noticed that not a lot of water came thru. I increased pressure with no flow increment. The vertical tubes were plugged at 80%.
With a propane torch, I removed the bottom solder and pulled down the reservoir. With a piano wire I removed the dirt accumulation  inside each tube, mostly in the lower one inch, and flushed it. The car did not run for 20 years, deposit was expected.
The bottom part was welded and the radiator is now under pressure to spot any leak.
A. Hudon