Air con-to fix or not to fix

[Conor]

I am a new member to the SL group and am intending to purchase a 1971 280SL (usa model) .It is in good running condition but the air conditioner doesn't work.Since I live in UK and probably won't "need" it much is it important to get it fixed for the overall value of the car and also by having the air con working will it by any chance put extra "strain" on the engine that may lead to other problems caused?
Thanks for any advice-I am a relative newbie to this!

[Jordan]

Conor, welcome to the site and congratulations on your upcoming purchase.  I can only speak for myself but if you aren't going to use the air conditioner why fix it now, unless you plan on reselling the car in the next couple of years.  If you fix it and never use it for 10 or 20 years, it may not work once you want to eventually sell the car.  Of course if you plan to take the car onto the mainland for holidays etc, you may want to use the air, in which case fix it.  All depends on what your plans are down the road.  So now you know what to do. 

[TR]

If you check out the Hagerty Insurance online car valuation tool and then click on "Vehicle Valuation Details" you will see under "Notes/Buzz" it says "+15% for a/c".  At least that is the case for a late model 280SL; I did not check the other models.  But at a 15% value-add it might be worth considering keeping it.  I've found an old Frigiking a/c unit can be brought up to a near-modern standard of performs for what I considered very reasonable cost.  You can now even get new, really nice, aluminum Frigiking placards for the front panel at reasonable cost.

[Conor]

Thanks guys for the advice, much appreciated !

[Tomnistuff]

If this is in the wrong place, Mods, please move it.

As a part of my restoration, I am considering adding AC to my never-had-AC 67 Italian 230SL.  My question is, "Should I go the easy route and install a new Buds Benz system or should I, for the sake of pseudo-authenticity, search for an old Frigiking, Kuhlmeister, Behr, or Thermoking system and restore it?

The Buds Benz system is probably more efficient, newer technology, definitely easier to find new and perhaps easier to install, given that my engine and dash installation has not started yet.  Although Pagoda AC was a dealer installed item and therefore not "technically original", a Frigiking, Kuhlmeister, Behr, or Thermoking unit is at least period correct.  On the other hand, I restored the AC system on a 1969 Ferrari, and if I never again see a York compressor, it will be too soon.  It even made a smooth idling V12 shake like a wet dog.  I also don't want to deal with idle speed variations due to compressor cycling or the "garbage disposal" sound of a York piston compressor pumping at idle.

Is AC type relevant to a discussion of correctness and classic car value?  I've seen the NADA values discussion, but it didn't discuss "AC type", only the presence or absence of AC relative to the value of the car.  Maybe since there were so many different systems installed by dealers, maybe one more (a modern, efficient and quiet one) makes no difference to the value or authenticity.

Are there any opinions out there?  (I understand that like some unmentionable body parts, everybody is supposed to have one.)

Tom Kizer

[johnaz]

Can I get input on adding a/c to a 230?  Stock restored car that never had a/c.  Can one install a/c and still be deemed a truly stock 230?
Was all a/c dealer installed on 230's?
Should I install a factory unit, and if so which one would be correct for a late 67 230?
Or is an aftermarket with rotary compressor deemed ok for install?
All input is appreciated.
Thanks,
John

[Tomnistuff]

johnaz,
You and I were writing the same question at the same time for the same kind of car.  Talk about coincidence !!
I suspect the mods should combine our posts.
Tom Kizer

[johnaz]

For sure we posted almost the same thing at the same time.
Hopefully we will get some good info.

[Khurram Darugar]

" But at a 15% value-add it might be worth considering keeping it."

Here in the UK if it is hot enough to have the aircon on then its top down season.

Some years back I mentioned installing aircon to Roger Edwards of Roger Edwards Motors.   He looked at me comically and just asked why??  Aparantly this is a shared thought with many a UK owner where aircon relatively less common.  So yes as with anything extra there will be an associated price but its probably not as much as you think.  It is unlikely in the UK that aircon would command a significant premium such as 15%.  I would take a guess and say 5-10%. 
It would probably be more of an issue if you were to export/sell the car to a climate where aircon is really needed..... Arizona, OZ, Dubai etc.

Kay

[66andBlue]

Tom,
since your car never had a/c my question is, why then do you want to molest it?  
I could understand putting an a/c into a Pagoda if it was incorporated into the ventilation system, perhaps in exchange for the blower under the dash.
But this unit is just monstrous and plain ugly, imo.

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Alfred,

I`ve had the car since 1987.  In the early years, it was in good shape and I used it quite a lot (in Michigan), but my wife, whom I love dearly, is an “autophobe” (I think I just made up that word), which means she doesn’t like cars, doesn’t like to drive, and unless the car is really comfortable, doesn’t even like to ride.  (She didn’t learn to drive until she was 35 years old, and then only by necessity).  That’s a psychologically difficult situation for a mechanical engineer who spent 34 years designing and developing automobile powertrains and doing advanced automotive engineering.

When we take out the Pagoda, for her it’s either too cold, or too windy, too noisy or too sunny with the top down, or its too hot with the top up or the hardtop on.

The climate here in Quebec City doesn’t help, with a six-month winter during which the car is stored, a one month spring, during which it rains, and a one month fall, during which it is to cool for top down driving.  That leaves four months (maximum) of summer, two months of which it’s too hot not to have AC.  I love driving with the top down and if there are a few hours that are appropriate to that kind of driving, I lower the top.  The AC will be for my wife.  I’m also planning to install lots of noise and heat insulation and a modern four channel stereo radio (USA-4 DIN or Retro Sound) as well as cruise control for me and a wind screen for her hair.

I’m trying to maximize Pagoda time.  Making the car enjoyable for my wife is a big part of that effort.  I’m too old to worry about collector car purism, however, my philosophy, like Jim Villers, is drill no holes (except for the two hoses).  I may be a purist but I’m not a masochist.

It doesn’t hurt that it will add about 15% to the value of the car, and will therefore pay for itself, at least on paper.  When it’s back together, I’m going to drive it as a daily driver for six months out of the year and store it for the other six months – until I die or can’t drive any more.  By the way, that statement that there are two months that are too hot not to have AC, is my statement, not hers.  Up here in the Northeast, the ozone layer is THIN.

So to re-ask the original question, does it matter what kind of AC it is, once I`ve decided to add AC, or should I just make it easy on myself?

Tom Kizer

[johnaz]

And my 230 will live in Arizona, my wife will drive it too, and she wants a/c.  And if driven in the summer one just needs a/c to make it reasonable to drive in that climate.  Most of the rest of the year will not need a/c.
Just want to keep the car stock, and wanted to know what unit would be proper for a 67 230.

[Garry]

I agree with Alfred, It just spoils a good Pagoda.  I had a Sanden compressor unit in my 230SL and I took it outtogether with all the under dash gear and sold it for a couple of hundred dollars. Improved milage, improved looks, took stress off the motor, etc, etc.   Adding 15% to the value of the car, I want some of what they are smoking. I don't think so. For a purest point of view I think it detracts.

[dpreston Virginia]

I have a Buds Benz unit in my 70 280SE Cabriolet and absolutely love it. It allows the car to be driven much more often. Looks fine under the dash. If my Pagoda was a concours car I wouldn't think of adding A/C but mine is a low mileage original and would definitely consider adding the A/C.
In a smaller cabin the unit would be awesome in hot weather. If adding A/C makes you drive your car more then go for it. That's what owning these cars is all about. I would be shocked when its time to sell a buyer would not like the A/C. " Spoil it"...... Have fun driving it!!!

[Cees Klumper]

I'm with DPreston and in addition If I were considering choosing between three Pagodas, one without a/c, one with the period-correct old-school diesel attachment, and one with the modern variant, all else being equal I would definitely opt for the last one.
But then I also have a 123 ignition in my car ...

[Garry]

Now if I thought I could fit it such that the cool air comes out of the dash vents I would be there in a flash but the big under dash units are just plain ugly to me.

[TR]

Eye of the beholder...

[Garry]

Absolutely correct TR.  I work on the principal that if it is hot enough to put the air on then the top comes down. You cannot beat top down driving.  And if it's that hot that it is too hot, i.e over 100f and 90 - 100% humidity then I will not be out driving anyway.

[66andBlue]

 

Eye of the beholder...

Tom
that is quite understandable since you do not have the eyes of a "traditionalist"! 

See: .... BTW, it was another hot & sunny day in Boise, Idaho, at 102 F.  I ran a few errors around town; top-down, but with the A/C blasting and the Webasto seat coolers (modified) it was pleasant ... this from a guy who does not like heat, and who was forced to set through several minutes of dead-stop because of road work - but the engine temp held steady. ....
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11089.msg74203#msg74203

Are all these creature-comfort-things still in your car after Gernold went through it?

[TR]

Alfred,

Yes, those creature-comfort adders remain firmly in place.  The car is still with Gernold, currently freshing up the hardtop.  But your question is a good & timely one.  Just the other day I asked his opinion about returning the seats to there original configuration, which would be no big deal, or perhaps sending them to Mecatronic for some even further comfort.  I do not wish to put words into Gernold's mouth, (wouldn't dare), but my take away from the response to the M-B OEM modern adders (seat coolers, heaters, back massagers) are that they are nice.  So no plans to take any of that out, at least not within the foreseeable future.  And again, probably not if but when it does go back to standard it will not be hard to do.

Garry, I agree that top-down driving is the best.  The only way I know to improve on it is if it's really warm to switch on those seat coolers and crank up the old Frigiking A/C, which now looks at least as good as new, and performs far better than new.  And yes, part of that now includes some chilled, or heated, air flow coming out of those round side vents in the dash.  Between the ice-cold A/C, the seat coolers, the wind screen behind the seats and side-windows up one can comfortably cruise at high speed on some pretty warm days.  But when the sun is beating straight down forget about it; the tops is going up.  Then the enclosed cockpit can very quickly turn into a deep freeze. 

And re the value-add of A/C identified by Hagerty, well, sure makes sense to me...and ever more so for my wife.

BTW, we used in live in Australia and loved it.  It gets almost as hot in Idaho, (100 F not unusual mid-June thru Aug), as in some areas of Australia.

[Garry]

Hey Tom,

I am about to drive my 1974 Kombi on a 14,000km trip around Australia for a couple of months.  Air Conditioning.  Yep got air, well windows and a fan   it even oscillates from left to right

Now just how can I make the fridge that is between the front seats provide cooling to the seats?

[GGR]

if it is hot enough to have the aircon on then its top down season.

Exactly.

When we take out the Pagoda, for her it’s either too cold, or too windy, too noisy or too sunny with the top down, or its too hot with the top up or the hardtop on.

Wouldn't a nice W111 Coupe 3.5 with A/C be more adapted to your needs? That is a beatiful car with all the equipment and comfort you wife needs.

[TR]

Hey Tom,

I am about to drive my 1974 Kombi on a 14,000km trip around Australia for a couple of months.  Air Conditioning.  Yep got air, well windows and a fan   it even oscillates from left to right

Now just how can I make the fridge that is between the front seats provide cooling to the seats?

Garry,

Sounds like a great adventure.  Have a good & safe trip.  Hopefully you'll post a few photos along the journey?

BTW, since no A/C I believe your seasonal timing is good!

[Alan Smithee]

The Hagerty valuation of AC on a 280SL seems very high to me.  I was keeping a very close eye on the market until I bought mine last year, and I just did not see that sort of discrepancy.  That said, from a collector's perspective, any added value would be for a car with AC originally fitted; adding AC to a non-AC car does not necessarily increase the value of the car by 15%.  If you live in a climate that necessitates AC, then obviously it will increase enjoyment and be easier to sell regardless of whether it is original or not, as long as it is working well.

To the OP:  If AC is original to the car and you do not use it, I would not spend the money to make it functional, but I would not remove it, either.

[Garry]

Since no cars left the production line with air conditioning, it is a mute point whether the car came with it or not unless you have the dealer receipt to show one was fitted by them otherwise nothing on the Data Card will show this and I suspect very few have the original receipt unless very lucky.

Thus the 15% may only apply to those that can prove the origionality of the fit by the dealer with receipts.  Otherwise I suspect the value like you suggest is much lower and more of a nicety can comfort thing for some.