Author Topic: w114 engine change. need opinion.  (Read 12064 times)

w113dude

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w114 engine change. need opinion.
« on: January 21, 2013, 00:35:19 »
Hi All,
I have a 1972 250c that has a carb, engine not very reliable,  I'd like to change the engine to a 250se fuel injected, has anyone done this? other than electric fuel pump any thing else? condition of the care is great.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Shaun

stickandrudderman

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 14:02:40 »
I would try to find a 250CE at a breakers and buy the whole car. The job shouldn't be difficult but having another car alongside will make it pretty straight forward.

w113dude

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 14:08:53 »
250ce are not very common in the US, that was my first choice but I ended up with the 250c.

114015

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 17:59:48 »
Hello Shaun,

I would not recommend to replace the engine by an incorrect one.

Your 1972 (built in 1971) 250 C has got an original 280 M130 dual Zenith carburettor engine (I assume).
Basically that is the old 280 S/W108 engine with a few less bhps.

That engine is known to be almost bullet proof. If not something severe is ongoing with this engine (worn, burning oil, etc.) there is no reason to replace it.

I rather assume that you are not getting along with the both Zenith 35/40 INAT units...
Let me tell you this: if those are not properly taken care of you will never get a correct idle, cold start, etc.

Against a very general opinion of (poor) amateurs, these carbs are not a nightmare - like perhaps the 190 SL Solex units.

The dissassembly, cleaning and assembly is well described in the BBB W108 - 113. Go ahead with that advice there and clean them thoroughly - one after the other, not both at the same time. If you are scared you can start with a spare carburettor and play around with that one first.
In utmost cases you only need a new gasket set, not more. No new jets, etc.
However, it is very important to make sure that you have your correct carbs on your engine. They look (almost) all the same: 220 S, 230 S, 250 S, 280S, 230/8, 250/8 M114 250/8 M130 but they are actually not!!
You could convert one carb into another, but that's already advanced tinkering.

Most important is a proper tuning afterwards, and I recommend the help of a professional shop there with its equipment (vacuum measuring device to syncronize the carbs, CO tester, etc.)

In summary: If you intend to sell your car (what is what you want), then keep it as original as possible.
Carb handling is no nightmare. Go for it.

Just my 2 cents...

Achim


Achim
(Germany)

114015

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 18:04:01 »
Shaun,

Well,
your car looks (completely) European.
If so and if it was produced before 04.1972 then you still have the M114 2.5 litre engine with the 35/42 INATs.

By far not as nice an engine like the M130 but still ....

... my advice above holds.


Achim
(230/8 with 2 self-overhauled35/40 INATs)
Achim
(Germany)

w113dude

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 13:10:41 »
Hello Achim,

You are right in many aspects, I have owned the car for the last ten years or so, I did finish the restoration a few years ago but never got to the engine, the car is actually 250c with a 2.5 double zenith carb, the car is not European I've converted in to one by simply changing a few things.

The fact is that I know nothing about carburetors and every so called old school Mercedes mechanic that I have talked to say the same thing "you can never get these adjusted right don't wast your time" . In the mean time I happen to have a fuel injected m129 engine on hand but now after further investigation I realize the engine arms will not work from one to another and can not be replaced.

I think I'll have to take your advise and tackle the engine by myself, I do have the right tools as well, including the vacuum device for carburetor, CO meeter and BBB. so I guess I have excuse right? :)

I'll let you know how it turns out.
Thanks for the advise,
Shaun

m300cab

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 15:51:22 »
I had a 280S with carburators , drove the car for 12 years. got 24 mpg on a trip from NYC to Niagara Falls
Yes< I agree fix the carbs the right way
I had a Joe Savino in Brooklyn NY
Savino International
PLUS he has  Gullwing in the shop that he used to race way back when
Michael Parlato

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 17:47:37 »
I have four 114 coupes around here. 250C, 250CE, 1974 280C and a 1973 280C. The 250 CE has a good engine but the car is not that great. Since it's so rare I keep it under cover. Might be the ticket for someone.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

ja17

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2013, 02:17:55 »
Yes, setting up and mounting the carbs correctly is difficult. But once done properly they are reliable and keep in tune. Only the most experienced techs know these ins and outs of these old complicated Zeniths. The factory set-up procedure is about 9 pages long. I have it in PDF if you need a copy email me. Adjusting these is not very intuitive, but I can help you with what to look for and how to set them up.

Here again the USA versions with emissions are a different animal than the emission free original versions in the 220 SB, 250S, 230 (finback) etc. In the US, timing ignition retard, tamer camshafts, timing and engine cooling temperature relays and sensors, and anti-dieseling valves were added by the late 60s and early 70s. Sizes of carb. venturis, fuel and air jets, and basic adjustment procedures changed as did emission regulations.

If you know carburetion, you just do not get into these and start turning adjusting screws. You need to have the set-up procedure and know what everything does.

Mounting is critical, the base mounting bolts become loose with age, and the paper gaskets above and below the heat insulators shrink and cause vacuume leaks. The rubber secondary diaphragms are almost always split after 20 years. The accelerator pump seals may not be working anymore, causing hesitation at acceleration. Adjusting them and cleaning the fuel discharge tubes is critical.

If you get this far the automatic chokes with an electric heating element are the subject of  volumes of discussions by pre-maturely grey haired owners. Only the best most experienced can easily achieve the correct warm up idle, cold start up and hesitation free operation.

On cars which have sat for years, fuel varnish will clog up tiny passages. Complete tear down is most often needed. One idle passage can only be cleaned by drilling out a factory plug, and re-installing it after the dirt and varnish are reamed out.

Now that I have scared you a bit, these units will run well for years, once restored, mounted correctly, synchronized correctly and adjusted correctly.

Lastly, I have installed many W129, W130 mechanically injected engines in W114 cars(cioupes and sedans) mostly for the increased power, as I used this combination in my SCCA Pro Rally car back in the 80s.  Its more work than getting the carbs going right. Lots of info on this if you go that route.  If you do you will be building a  car which may have value only to  yourself.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 02:24:53 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

w113dude

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 13:13:07 »
Thanks Joe and others,

I will try and tackle the job with a friend, most likely we'll need some help during fine tuning, is there any way to get rid of all those US emission clutter that is on the way and make it simple? I would love to clean up the engine bay and get rid of them all.

ja17

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2013, 14:45:33 »
The carburetion can be simplified by finding a set of early 220Seb Zeintih Carbs and a pre-emission distributor. The carbs will still need to gone through most likely.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

w113dude

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 19:35:59 »
The carburetion can be simplified by finding a set of early 220Seb Zeintih Carbs and a pre-emission distributor. The carbs will still need to gone through most likely.

Hi Joe,

Any idea of particular distributor? I have a few aluminum ones on hand.

114015

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 19:38:58 »
Quote
is there any way to get rid of all those US emission clutter that is on the way and make it simple? I would love to clean up the engine bay and get rid of them all.

Dear Dave,

As Joe indicted, "maybe".
Other (or better) choice will be to find the correct Zenith 35/42 INAT carburettors of a Euro version donor car.
A quick search on ebay - Deutschland revealed this:

www.ebay.de/itm/170836981032
www.ebay.de/itm/160969033450

With a bit more patience you may find the correct 35/42 INATs as well.

Or:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=zenith+mercedes&_sacat=0&_from=R40

The 250S carbs probably come closest to your setup.

Good luck!

Achim

Achim
(Germany)

w113dude

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Re: w114 engine change. need opinion.
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 19:45:11 »
Thanks Achim,

But wouldn't euro carbs have to have matching distributors?