Author Topic: low nose 6 production number and rarity  (Read 18412 times)

perry113

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low nose 6 production number and rarity
« on: December 26, 2011, 23:59:46 »
Does any one know the production numbers for low nose 6 cylinder coupes and Cabriolets. These cars sesentually are only indistinguishable from a 3.5 minus the 3.5 badge. I saw this low 6 on ebay and started thinking about it. see:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-200-Series-1970-Mercedes-Benz-280-se-LOW-GRILL-COUP-/260921660147?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cc02492f3

The seller claim "around 440 units .produced in 1969 and 1970 only" This is a rare car.

Are the Mercedes production records on hand and out there somewhere in our forum? Would the classic center release this information.

You can find overall production numbers on W111 coupes and cabriolets on Silver Star's website but it does not carve out low nose cars.
see
http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/111SE.htm

Production Numbers of the 280SE from 1968 to 1971
The chassis prefix for 280SE Coupes is 111 024 The engine prefix is 130 980/984
The chassis prefix to 280 SE Cabriolets is 111 025 The engine prefix is 130 980/984
Coupes 3797 units
Cabriolets 1390
 Total: 5187 units

I would like to start researching this information. It would be neat to find out how many were USA cars (which I believe specically had transistorized coil ignition systems) versus european cars.
I have seen a few 69 high cars and they set up so much differently the low nose set up. I found this out when saving my 280SE 3.5 living doner car now technically built from a 1970 low nose cabriolet 6.

Cheers.

Peter
see picture link of project W111 280SE 3.5 living doner car.

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355593055710048515/1970280SECoupe#
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:56:53 by perry113 »
Peter Perry
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perry113

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 19:01:39 »
I am still fishing for information and feedback from the forum. Would anyone like to comment?
Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed Barn Find
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Jonny B

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 19:01:24 »
According to the book by Tim Slade (Original Mercedes Benz Coupes, Cabriolets and V-8 Sedans 1960 - 1972, ISBN - 0-7603-1952-9) The low grill cars began production in November of 1969 through to the end of the 111's in May 1971. The book lists these as all being 3.5 V-8's. (M-116 engine) According to the table in the back of the book, 3270 units were produced with 1232 cabriolets.
Jonny B
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perry113

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2012, 21:42:29 »
Thanks for your reply. Your response seems to reflect the V8 cars only which were all low nose, however, they also used the V8 low nose bodies and fit them with 2.8 six cylinder powerplants. I am led to believe that the low nose 6 cylinder cars, both cabriolet and coupes might have been made by the handful.

According to Silver Star's website there were a total of 4502 3.5 V8's, 3270 of them being coupes and the remaining 1232 of them being cabriolets.

280SE cars which would encompass the entire run of high and low nose 6 being 5187. 3997 of these cars were coupes and the remaining 1390 of them being cabriolets. There data however does not carve out how many of each were high and low nose configurations.

My friend recently bought a 69 high nose coupe that is an amazing original survivor. It however is quite different under the hood than my 70 low nose. The fuse panel as an example is located under the bonnet whereas my car is under the dash much like a 3.5.

Are there any forum members out there who own low nose 6's?
Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed Barn Find
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hauser

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2012, 22:10:03 »
As a long time fan of the W111 low grill coupes I find it very disappointing that many of them have been sacrificed for cabrio parts.  These beautiful coupes have also had their roofs decapitated to convert them into cabrios. 

When searching for a W111 it is easier to find a cabrio than a coupe.

Benz Dr.

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 22:42:35 »
I think there were about 3,500 3.5 coupes and cabs built, all would have the low nose. I've owned a 3.5 coupe for about 15 years but have never found the time to restore it. I managed to find NOS front fenders for it which are probably a small fortune today.
The 3.5 coupe is what I'd call a modern yet old car.
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Garry

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 22:47:01 »
I think Waqas has a 6 cylinder 2.8 Coupe that he had a PUB?
Garry Marks
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bogeyman

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 00:10:07 »
John Olson (SL Market Letter) estimates 1600 6 cylinder coupes built between 68-72.
The low grille began production in mid '69 so an estimate would be around 1,000 low grille 6 cylinder coupes?
Rick Bogart
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Jonny B

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 00:18:25 »
I went back and re-read the section of Slade's book regarding the low nose cars more carefully, and it does indicate that the 6 cylinder was put in the low nose cars at the same time. It indicates the cars are indistinguishable from the outside save for the 3.5 on the tail.

Thanks for clarifying.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

stickandrudderman

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 11:40:21 »
There are significant panel differences between the low and high noses. I recently looked into converting a high nose to a low nose but there was just too much work to make it worthwhile.

perry113

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 18:48:51 »
There are significant panel differences between the low and high noses. I recently looked into converting a high nose to a low nose but there was just too much work to make it worthwhile.

There alot of differences. As far as sheetmetal goes I think the inner aprons are different which would make it really hard to do. Do you know if the doors and rear fenders are different?
Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
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stickandrudderman

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 17:14:03 »
AFAIK:
Doors are the same but rear fenders are different due to some additional stiffeners.

hkollan

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 07:37:11 »
AFAIK:
Doors are the same but rear fenders are different due to some additional stiffeners.

The changed rear fenders where introduced on later high-grille cars, so it is not a change that can be used to distinguish between low and high grille cars. 

Hans
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mbzman

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 07:39:33 »
I have both the low grill and high grill. They are all beautiful cars and should be left original. I would never convert a high grill to a low grill. A lot of people think the 3.5 is the best/ to me the 6 cy is also an amazing car. I can drive both of them on the FWY over 100mph with no problem.

JPMOSE

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 13:20:28 »
I looked at my statistics when you first posted the question.   It is indeed difficult to segregate between the high and low grill 6 cylinder by serial numbers and data available!   I didn't have any success....sorry.

It's interesting though...I have a 3.5 cabrio and sometimes wish it was a high grill, as I think it looks more stately!   I guess the grass is always greener on the other side!
Best Regards,

J. P. Mose
1968 250SL
1970 280SE 3.5 Cabriolet
1987 560SL

waqas

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 06:19:33 »
Catching up on unread threads, and I just saw this.

My w111 is a 250SE/C (so, high grille). When I was searching for a car (circa 2006), I came across a 1970 low-grille 2.8 with a five speed (not ZF). I still wonder if I should have bought it. It was a bit more rusty than I was comfortable with.

I remember searching for production data on the ZF versus MB 5-speed, but found conflicting numbers from various sources. Never went back after all was said and done to check the numbers, so I too would be very curious to know more about the production data.

I'm very happy with my coupe, the high-grille, four-on-floor, and sunroof. The 250 motor is as peppy as ever (with a fresh transmission rebuild and new clutch!). I frequently take it on road-trips and average 80 mph, and it always feels very responsive. These cars are very under-valued, and the 3.5 cars are (IMHO) over-valued. Of course, I'm biased ;-)
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

perry113

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 18:48:13 »
The coupes in general, even 3.5's seem to be undervalued. These cars are a BUY :). I am totally in love with the my low nose 6 coupe. It is a spectular car to drive and to just look at.
I can't wait for the roads to clear up so I can go for a ride.
Peter
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 15:50:06 by perry113 »
Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed Barn Find
1970 280SE living 3.5 donor car

perry113

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 15:49:33 »
I just found this website from the posting on the the fintail coupe. There is some great information to be found here. see:

http://www.heckflosse.nl/prodccv.htm

This may shed some additional light on production numbers. According to the site it shows on 613 280SE coupes and convertibles built in 1970 and only 68 in 1971. It differentiates 3.5 cars from these numbers. It also shows 2501 280se coupes and convertibles built in 1969. There would be some cars in this timeframe that were low nose cars  but I would guess there was only a hand full.

It is interesting to also see they list only 176 3.5 coupes and convetibles made in 1969.


Peter Perry
1970 911T Bahia Red
1972 911T Albert Blau
1963 220seb coupe barn
1965 230SL Light Ivory automatic
1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed Barn Find
1970 280SE living 3.5 donor car

wwheeler

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 05:35:00 »
I am on the fence when it comes to low versus high grille. I love my high grille but also like the more modern look of the low grille. There is one thing I would do differently if I bought a coupe today, and that is to get a 250 SE. I love that wood binnacle and all of the interior chrome trim that mine doesn't have. I believe the 250 also doesn't have the horrible US side markers.

I am slowly changing some of the items to the earlier stuff like the heater levers and the chrome rearview mirror. Man that looks good! 

I would be really surprised if the coupe values don't rise significantly by the next decade. Get 'em while you can.
Wallace
Texas
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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 15:25:36 »
Wallace,

I hate the side markers as well.  Fortunately, my W111 is a Euro version.   Unfortunately, my 250SL is a 1968 USA version with side marker lights!!!  While I love my 250SL...the engine is no comparison to the 3.5 when it comes to performance...but that's just my humble opinion!
Best Regards,

J. P. Mose
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1970 280SE 3.5 Cabriolet
1987 560SL

wwheeler

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 20:32:59 »
Whenever I get around to painting my W111, I am seriously considering plugging up the side marker holes. Whenever I see a sideshot profile, the markers distract from the wonderful curves of the sheetmetal. Without the markers, the car is transformed my opinion.
Wallace
Texas
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Ben

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2012, 11:12:10 »
Actually I expect there are less 280's with the high grill than with the low, considering the 280's arrived in Feb '68 and ran to Nov '69 whilst the high grille went from Nov '69 to the end of production in '72.

I do think the early cars have the more elegant interior and look more stately but the low grille cars manage to look so much more modern and sleek with just that little tweek. The light ivory interior on a 3.5 with macassar wood is just stunning IMO !

I sold my 280SE high grille a few months back and miss it terribly, but needs must and all that. I will definitely buy another without a shadow of a doubt.

Jack Jones

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2012, 13:49:34 »
I have to say that I agree with the comments regarding the US style side markers and I had my 1970 280SL fenders and headlamp buckets welded and metal finished to remove all evidence of them. If I ever sell the car I have a new set of markers if the new owners feels differently but the clean look with the addition of the European headlamps are stunning.
Jack Jones                                                                                                   
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gerster

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Re: low nose 6 production number and rarity
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 09:48:29 »
Hello, I have a book called "Die S-klasse von Mercedes Benz" writed by Heribert Hofner and he writes in his book that of the total of 5187 280 SE Cp/Conv. (3.797 Coupé's, 1.390 Convertibles) about 2/5th are with the lownose.
Maybe this will help.