FYI--ZF 5 speed trans.

[rocketman1]

Good Evening. Hey I pulled up the ZF web site for our Pagoda's. According to the factory (ZF Germany)
Reports:    1963-1971
Platform:    MB  W113
                2.3L M127
                2.5L M129
                2.8L M130
All had the option for:   4-speed Auto
                               4-speed manual
                               5-speed manual  (sorry BenzDr.)
Is there anybody out there with a 1963/1964/1965 factory installed ZF-5 ?
Stuff for the archives
Thanks
David Lewandos
Corpus Christi,Texas
AKA: rocketman1
1964 230 SL W/ZF-5 268H Dark Green
PS: still waiting for my data card from MB

[DaveB]

I don't think that can be right. There are no records of '63-'65 5-speed cars in our database. I'm pretty sure your data card will indicate the car was originally a 4-speed.

[66andBlue]

Hi Dave,
According to Engelen with VIN 16411 on May 6, 1966 a 5-speed manual gearbox became available (SA 55540). Of course, that does not provide proof that one was actually ordered but it should not be in a 1964 230SL

[ricrose]

Hi Guys

I'm quoting from the new Brian Long book -

"As it happens, the five-speed transmission was announced in November 1965, but there was no price listed against it until March of the following year."

I can only presume that Brian has it researched as the rest of the detail in the book seems very definate. That probably further strengthens what has already been stated.

Richard

[Richard Madison]

There is a 1965 230SL in our Car Registry that lists a 5 Speed ZF but does not say if it is original or a later add on.

Richard M, NYC

[DaveB]

Thanks Richard, missed that one. Benz Dr's is another possible pre-'66 w. ZF but I don't know the year, or whether it's the original trans.

I was under the impression that there had been a transmission tunnel modification in 1966 to fit the ZF, so I will be pleased if that's not the case and it the ZF can be easily retrofitted to pre-'66 230sl.

[Benz Dr.]

My car was built around Sept 1966 so it would be an early install. Since it was also exported to Italy where many of them were delivered, I believe it's original.
I can't see why there would be any need to modify the tunnel because the auto trans is larger that the 5 speed. I would say that the length would be similar. A ZF 5 speed really isn't that big.
I bought my car in Dec 1993 when not that many people were collecting these cars and even fewer knew that 5 speeds were even made. There's little reason for me to suspect anything non original because I've had it all apart several times and there are no modified parts. Nothing has been welded, cut or changed. It's the real deal.

[George Des]

Same with mine--no mods. I think Dan's and mine were built not that far apart although mine was registered as a 1967 and like Dan's was originally sold to someone in Italy-in my case someone in Rovigo--I still have all the original paperwork including the Italian libretto and Foglio Complementare used to register it in 1967. I'm the second owner--the first was an Italian physician and I have had it since 1976 so I know it is original.

George Desiderio
1967 230SL w/ZF 5 Speed

[rocketman1]

Thanks Guys, very good info. I just sent for my "data card" from the MB Classic Center in Stuttgart and sent the fee for the new "Zertifikat"
Can't wait, that would be insane if it was built with a ZF-5.
Best Wish's
David B. Lewandos
Corpus Christi, Texas
AKA:rocketman1
PS: stupid question, do the "American shipped Pagoda cars" 1963-1971  have solid aluminum hoods/trunck lids/driver and passenger doors like the Euro models??

[Iconic]

There is no stupid question, at least not on this forum. 
Yes, the aluminum body components are the same on US cars. Don't forget the convertible top storage cover.
There is a MB Classic Center in Irvine CA, USA also. Just FYI.
Please tell me about what the "Zertifikat" is.
Thank you.
Mark

[Garry]

David,

Its the MB Centre in Irvine CA that usually provides the Zertifikats for free and does so within hours if not a couple of days to you via email with a scanned copy of the original certificate.

Dont hold your breath on the 5 speed for your '64. 66 appears to be the year they became available. So many US cars have been modified away from the data card with the ZF in the USA that it is fairly critical to get that data card to see if its original or just another modified one.

I used to think it was pretty cool that more than 900 of the 882 ZF 5 speeds had survived in the US alone

[Iconic]

Garry,
I know this string is about the 5-speeds, but Rocketman1 mentioned both the data card and the "Zertifikat".
So, I'm under the impression they are separate items.
He said he paid the fee for the "Zertifikat".
I would love to know what that is.
Mark

[49er]

Garry,
I know this string is about the 5-speeds, but Rocketman1 mentioned both the data card and the "Zertifikat".
So, I'm under the impression they are separate items.
He said he paid the fee for the "Zertifikat".
I would love to know what that is.
Mark

Me too! I missed out when MB was selling the "Birth Certificates" for around $100US. I have contacted Irvine recently and they said the offer is still not available

John

[114015]

I missed out when MB was selling the "Birth Certificates" for around $100US. I have contacted Irvine recently and they said the offer is still not available

Deers ... Dears,

These "Zertifikate" were a while quite popular in Germany but it has been reported that the Classic Center has discontinued to sell them - due to limited demand.
Why?
Because it is only a nice looking kind of "certificate" on a fancy type of paper for your living room wall (like a painting) but doesn't provide you with any more info than is on the datacard.

Go get the data card for your car and "leave out" that stupid certificate ;
the first one is for free, the second (too) expensive and useless.

IMHO 

Achim
(only datacards)

[114015]

I used to think it was pretty cool that more than 900 of the 882 ZF 5 speeds had survived in the US alone Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Personally, I cannot understand where that number "900" derives from.
I also only know about the 882 ZF 5-speeds that were built in total - for the worldwide supply (based on Michael Egan's article in the MercedesCollector (ed. by the late Frank Mallory) in ... 1992  - and those numbers came from ZF  - I believe to remember.


Achim
(4-speed)

[Garry]

Hi Achim,

It was a joke.  There always appeared to be more 5 speeds with out correct provenance in the USA so one can only assume that lots of PO's fitted the ZF 5-20's in the past in a similar manner to putting GT stripes on a Mini.

I understand that there were about 3700 of the zf 5-20 gearboxes produced (882 for the W13 as you pointed out) and others including the Maserati.

There is one on the German Ebay at the moment from a Maserati

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Maserati-Sebring-Mistral-Mexico-Mercedes-Pagode-W113-Getriebe-ZF-S5-20-Gearbox-/250921622992?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item3a6c181dd0#ht_500wt_1061

Mark,
 I did mix up the Data Card that Rocketman1 wanted with the Certificate that used to be available.

[Iconic]

Thanks Achim and Garry,
You just saved me $100.
I don't want the "Zertifikate" and even if I did, it sounds like it isn't available.

[rocketman1]

Good Evening Gents. Well lots of talk about the trans./data cards/Zertifikat's.
First the Zertifikat's ARE available. I sent for mine today via fed ex. It now costs $125 US (thats a rip), plus shipping. Achim probably is right, it will look nice on your wall, but hell, I have lots of wall space in my garage. If you google and go to: classic parts @mbusa.com
you'll see the seperate site for Only the Zertifikat application. Click on that and you got the form.
Is it different than the data card? There's one way to tell, why doesn't somebody send us an e-mail of there data card (and yes you can block out the key codes) and if Achim will send his Zertifikat we'll know for sure the difference.
The ones in our Technical data base that Klaus Drexl refers too, are too fuzzy for me.
Lets talk about the ZF-5 Trans.
The MB # on mine is 1025 401 042
The Diff. # is 110 357 00 17
Now we know George D. and BenzDr. have ones in there 1966"s, 230 SL's, what are the MB # for those two parts? Maybe we can "back into" these question's ourselves.
Good discussions on a great subject. I really look forward to meeting you guy's sometime in the near future.
Thanks for the feed back
David Lewandos
AKA: rockerman1
PS: that was my nickname in high school, I used to "modify" the Estes Rockets in my physics class. They went way higher, and we didn't find many of them after launching!!!

[Benz Dr.]

If ZF made 3700 units most of them were not installed in MB cars. My information tells me that Benz installed them in about 1,400 cars. 882 113's, 108's and some 111/112's. I think they made a few for 189 engined cars and I saw one once at the Meadowbrook car show that was a 300SE Cab.  Not only is this car rare, but the factory only instaled a total of three 5 speeds in that version, making it the rarest of the rare.

The one I saw belongs to MB - they know it's rare.

[Garry]

Dan,

in a current German Ebay advert for the ZF the seller is quoting the number 3700 total for the gearbox.  I don't know how accurate that is and think it may be a bit high but I do know that any 5-20 box that I have seen in the last couple of years, have all come from Maserati's, I am just not going to chase up how many Maserati's had them but I suspect not an awful lot of those cars were built anyway.

[George Des]

Garry,

I took a look at that ebay advertised ZF 5-speed. Not sure what good it would do for anyone interested in fitting a ZF to a 113. The setup required by the Maserati inlcuding the linkage and the bellhousing are entirely different. In addition, the casing also looks quite different. My guess is the only commonality to the Zf designed for the 113's is the internal setup. I'll ask Dan to chime in further with his thoughts on this.

George Desiderio

[Benz Dr.]

The ones used in Maserati cars are similar but the external parts are diffferent. Bell housing, ouput shaft and shifter are not the same parts but I would think the internals are the same. I know little about these cars but it could be that on some models this was all they used.

 The set up used for our cars has all ZF parts. Even the bell housing is ZF so if you find one without a bell housing it won't do you much good. All of the aluminium parts were sand casted indicating low production numbers. ZF made their own input and output shafts that have the same dimensions as a MB box but the internal ends are not the same. You can't use a MB input shaft on a ZF box, it won't fit or work.

[George Des]

Garry/Dan,

Exactly where on the data card should I be able to find the ZF 5 Speed called out. I got a very hard to read copy of my data card today and I've been able to decipher most of it by cross checking with the info that I already have such as the body number, key numbers, etc. This all checks out. I can make out the transmission (Getriebe) number but can not find anything that resembles a code for the transmission--the numbers across the center of the card are all but unreadable they are so faint.


George desiderio

[mbzse]

.../...Exactly where on the data card should I be able to find the ZF 5 Speed called out../..

The codes for the ZF box and 1:4,08 rear axle that goes with it are SA 230 and 232.
On your data card, they are in the upper right hand quadrant. Heading is "wenig gewuenscht" in small letters
/Hans in Sweden

.

[Garry]

Attached is my data card

Note the second line right hand side codes 230 being the optional 5 speed and 232 being the 4.08 rear axle ratio.