Author Topic: Backside hub cap color match?  (Read 13728 times)

66andBlue

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Backside hub cap color match?
« on: September 18, 2011, 01:34:06 »
The backsides of the original 280SL wheel covers (hub caps) were painted in a kind of "military green".
See: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/WheelsTires/280slhubcap_inside.jpg
Has anyone found a good matching color in a readily available spray can?
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Richard Madison

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 09:27:38 »
Just curious Alfred why you want to find the original color

Do you remove the hubcaps for concours judges?

D you lie awake at night thinking the inside color is missing? or is there a more practical reason?

Richard M, NYC

If the answer is personal,  you can keep it to yourself or send me a Private Message     ::)
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

hauser

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 16:41:32 »
Hi Alfred

I have a set of hubcaps with the original green paint.  If you like to borrow it I would be more than happy to do so.

I'm sure the paint is there for a reason and I commend you for going the extra distance on this.

49er

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2011, 16:55:47 »
The paint is in pretty good shape on the back of my wheel covers. I can pop one off and send you a Hi Res photo if you like.

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

66andBlue

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2011, 20:45:21 »
... Do you remove the hubcaps for concours judges?
D you lie awake at night thinking the inside color is missing? or is there a more practical reason?  ...
Richard,
since you asked, I actually like to cuddle up next to them when I go to sleep.  ::)
Yes, there is a practical reason and it is the same that applies to the backside of the bumpers and other chromed steel parts. As my chrome plater explained to me, raw unpolished chrome tends to rust much faster than polished chrome and for that reason should be protected. Since I had the wheel covers re-chromed and need to paint the front in the correct chassis color I might as well do the backside in the correct color also.
Thanks to Bernd we know a good substitute for DB158, the bumper color (see: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10791.msg89234#msg89234), and I had hopes that someone might also know a substitute for the "drab olive" wheel cover color.

John and Hauser,
thanks for the offer but I did take photos of the wheel covers before I had them re-chromed. I just wanted to avoid some trial and errors, if possible.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mdsalemi

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2011, 22:45:01 »
unpolished chrome tends to rust much faster than polished chrome and for that reason should be protected.

I had to think about this one for a moment, and I'm not sure I agree 100%.  I will completely agree that these "behind the scenes" places like on the backside of bumpers and the backside of wheel covers will rust faster, but I would suspect it has nothing to do with the level of polish, but everything to do with the fact that these places are often left untouched and uncleaned for years!  Add the fact, minor as it may be, that the "rough surface" will hold dirt, moisture, salt--and never get cleaned!

Therefore I would absolutely follow your plater's advice in putting on an extra protective coat in the form of paint.  I would also add these parts to your annual or semi-annual cleaning regimen.  I pull the wheel covers off at least once a year; also the wheels and ensure that hidden places get cleaned.  Believe it or not, even the backside of the SS wheel covers can get nasty looking, but they will not rust.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

wwheeler

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 02:48:43 »
My understanding of why the chrome rusts on the backsides is because of what Michael said but also because of the concave curvature of the parts. Convex (bulging out) profiles readily accept the plating as the electrical current that allows plating has no problem reaching that surface. Concave surfaces however make it more difficult for the current to reach all of the deep inner surfaces. The deeper the concavity, the worse the problem. This is the same for zinc plating as well. Special anodes must be used if the concave surface quality is important.

Because of this, only very small amounts of chrome are deposited in these concave surfaces. That is also why the finish is always rougher. So it will rust faster. Since nobody cares about the inside of a bumper, they don't want to go the expense of making it look pretty. Same with the hubcaps.   
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Jonny B

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2011, 03:25:11 »
I have a couple of 190 SL reference books, and they list DB 158 as the color used on the inside of the hubcaps (with a small red dot too). The only other paint code I saw was for DB 169 a brownish gray primer used on the underside of the 190 SL.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Benz Dr.

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2011, 03:50:35 »
Those colour codes are correct but you should keep in mind that they are not like shiny paint so you need to use something to make the pain appear dull. Not flat and more like a satin finish.
I've seen DB 164 used for the back sides of wheels but it's too dark green. I think it really could be Army surplus paint that was cheap and readily available but still high qulaity.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

66andBlue

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 04:01:55 »
Jonny,
it is not DB158 for sure since this is an almond color and not a "drab olive".
I believe Dan could be right with his suggestion for army surplus paint, others have told me the same. I''ll look into that and will report back.
Wallace,
your explanation is similar to the one the chrome shop owner gave me. Since he can't spent the time to polish the backside at each step (copper, semi-bright nickel, bright nickel, chrome) the same way he does the front he claims that the surface is more porous and therefore more prone to rusting.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

66andBlue

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Re: Backside hub cap color match? Is it a match?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2011, 17:12:28 »
Looks like I found something that is a very close match to the original color - and it is dull.
But it is a primer, and now I am wondering whether the wheel covers were delivered by the OEM primed only and then the correct hardtop color was painted at the assembly plant on the front only.  ???
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mdsalemi

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2011, 19:17:47 »
My understanding of why the chrome rusts on the backsides is ... also because of the concave curvature of the parts. Convex (bulging out) profiles readily accept the plating as the electrical current that allows plating has no problem reaching that surface.

That is true, and fascinating as well.  Those wanting a technical explanation can read one here: http://www.nmfrc.org/subs/history/apr1954b.cfm  That "problem" specifically is why the electroless nickel process is often used on complex shaped parts--to deposit a uniform thickness of plate.  Based on plating reality, I'd suggest that the current flow issue is more significant say, on a bumper than on a wheel cover which is relatively flat.  And, if your plater is putting "just enough" chrome on the metal in the first place such that the back sides are compromised...time to find another plater??

Alfred--are you sure there was paint on these wheel covers?  Looks like a nice uniform rust to me, but it could be the photos.  I don't recall seeing any paint on the old steel wheel covers I once had (and I'm pretty glad I now have stainless... ;) ) but they looked pretty similar to what you have, maybe a bit worse.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

wwheeler

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2011, 20:01:03 »
I would agree with Michael that the rust on the hubcap backside is probably due more to expose to the elements than the plating theory. The more concavity (is that a real word?) the worse the problem.

Alfred,

That color looks a little on the blue side from the hubcaps I have seen. Of course it could be the picture lighting and such. I was thinking the grey/green color stopped just before the slots around the rim and was only in the bowl area. You can see the line where the rust isn't as bad. That is where the paint line stops on my hubcaps. As evidenced with this hubcap, paint sometimes traps rust and makes it worse underneath.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 20:11:59 by wwheeler »
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

66andBlue

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2011, 20:13:46 »
...   Looks like a nice uniform rust to me, but it could be the photos.  ...
Michael,
I suspect that your glasses are now starting to "rust" - have you seen an optometrist lately?   ;D
I can see the same green in the center as that shown in our technical manual:
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/WheelsTires/280slhubcap_inside.jpg
Unfortunately I don't know who the contributor of the photo is. Anyone out there claiming ownership?

Wallace,
the color on that old rusted wheel looks pretty much like the one in the tech manual. But you are correct, looking at colors on a computer screen is problematic.  That is why I put the cap on the wheel when I shot the photo and by all accounts they are very similar.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mdsalemi

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2011, 20:37:32 »
Michael,
I suspect that your glasses are now starting to "rust" - have you seen an optometrist lately?   ;D
I can see the same green in the center as that shown in our technical manual:

Thank you for the insult, Alfred.  It looked to me that you were using a can of spray paint in the center of the wheel covers as some kind of sample.  I did not realize that the color there was original, and that you are only trying to match the cap to paint that is already there.  To have rust around the edges and some kind of color in the center seems interesting.

If you have a sample then, why is this an issue?  Why don't you take the wheel covers to a reputable body shop; they will have a paint match system, and be able to mix up the paint for you quickly and accurately.  It will be of better quality than you can get out of any spray can.  They will give you matching primers as well, and may give you sound advice (which you might heed) on how to properly clean, treat and prep such rusted steel.  If you have no relationship with a body shop, any auto body supply house (where many buy their paint) will have the paint matching systems, but probably won't be able to give you experienced advice.  If you have none of these options available, Alfred--send it to me.  I have plenty of these options available and will be happy to get the paint for you, even if you do insult me.  You can take the paint and put it in a Preval sprayer or buy a sprayer that you pump up at Harbor Freight.  Or, if you want a proper job on these, leave it to the pros.  Without masking it is pretty easy for them.

My experience indicates that the best possible paint job you'll get out of a spray can will be something akin to a mediocre or bad professional job.  That's why auto body shops and repair shops don't use spray cans.  Thank goodness I've never seen Mercedes paint in Dupli Color.  Goodness knows what we might find out there!

Are these wheel covers worth salvagiing?  What condition is the chrome in on the front?  Dents, scratches?  There's a lot of work to be done on those backsides to get them ready for paint, as I'm sure you know.  Sounds like you are trying a better than Concours quality job since even at a Concours they don't remove the wheel covers.

My old wheel covers had no such evidence of any paint by they way, just lots of rust.  The dents, scratches, etc. on the front made them substandard, and replating would have been ridiculously expensive.  And later I would have had to find out about painting the backsides, too!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 21:08:37 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

49er

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2011, 21:00:47 »
photo of my wheel cover with natural lighting from the California Sun. I used to rotate the tires myself and when doing so always scrubbed the under carriage, wheels and wheel covers. It did help preserve them pretty well. There is a slight darkening due to brake dust. Hope this helps in your quest for the right color.

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2011, 09:29:46 »

I can see the same green in the center as that shown in our technical manual:
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/WheelsTires/280slhubcap_inside.jpg
Unfortunately I don't know who the contributor of the photo is. Anyone out there claiming ownership?


Guilty  :D

Guess I should have cleaned them up first!

Naj
68 280SL

114015

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2011, 15:15:44 »
Quote
Guilty   :D
Naj

Hello Naj,
As to your new avatar ... Are you now the proud owner of a 300 SL?? :o :D
Or is it a 190 SL?? :D ;D

Best,

Achim
Achim
(Germany)

114015

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2011, 15:21:27 »
Wow ...
after 37 years of W114 experience ....
... I just learned something again!   :D

Well,
I know that the early style hub caps (the small W186 ones) have the DB 158-alike color inside, as Jonny and Dan confirmed...
... but the late style.... :o .... and (sort of) green??? :o ???

My 1971 stainless steel hubcaps are clearly factory-unpainted on their inside.
That's why I guess that only the early style W108 chrome-plated steel hubcaps are painted. I guess you both have those, Alfred and John (49er), since both your cars are genuine 1968ths.

Any other observation here regarding this issue??
 ;) :D ;D

Achim
(only stainless late-style hubcaps)
Achim
(Germany)

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2011, 19:52:47 »
Hello Naj,
As to your new avatar ... Are you now the proud owner of a 300 SL?? :o :D
Or is it a 190 SL?? :D ;D

Best,

Achim

Hi, Achim,

Just Dreamin....  :'(

Naj
68 280SL

Jonny B

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Re: Backside hub cap color match?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2011, 19:57:35 »
Ah yes, but 'tis a good thing to dream!
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor