EFI for the Pagoda

[ctaylor738]

There was a lot going on at Startech, held in Milwaukee last weekend an hosted by Black Forest LLC.  But the most interesting to me was a very nice 280SL that had been converted to electronic fuel injection.  Out come the pump, lines, injectors, CSV, etc.  In go a fuel rail, electronic injectors, an ECU, throttle position sensor, oxygen sensor, and new innards for the distributor.  The conversion is made by a company in Wisconson, DoneRite Automotive Performance (doneriteautomotive.com).  Advertised cost is $4300.  

The claims are 25% more power and torque, smooth and stable idle, and reduced emissions.

Gernold drove the car, and commented "Very good running."

I think the conversion could be done better, like getting the some of the stuff out of the engine bay and using more 113-like hoses and wiring, but I am very interested in this for my 280SL project.  Obviously not for the concours crowd.  It seems to me it's a viable option for a car that needs a pump rebuild or someone interested in driveability or just being different.

Reactions at Startech were all over the map.

[mdsalemi]

EFI on a Pagoda?  Hmm...

Conversions like this, unless done for some kind of fun or sport, need to solve a problem.  What precisely does this solve?

A well sorted Pagoda with a well sorted stock FI pump is very robust.  Indeed, with the newest being 40 years old, that's quite an achievement.  The fact that Michael at Black Forest (with a nod to Hans and Gus as well) is rebuilding and tuning these mechanical marvels, some approaching 60 years old, is testament to their robustness and build quality.  Think about it--how many electronic things of the same vintage still work, and can still be "rebuilt"?  Not too many, I'm afraid.

I do not claim the most well sorted Pagoda, but I can tell you it would be hard to find a smoother 750 RPM idle than my car--at least when warm.  Don't listen when cold, however.  

25% horsepower and torque gain?  Well, that would have many people listening.  After spending $4K+ and obviously some development time getting it right, since they have a dyno used for their tuning, did they back up their claim?  That would be something.

One thing to consider is emissions.  A friend of mine here in Michigan was in the Federalization business.  He had a "last of the pre-BMW" John Cooper Works Minis, and one of the things they did was to install an EFI system from a Nissan to help meet emissions.  Maybe this really cuts down on the emissions of the Pagoda, which are not something to be proud of, but of the time.

If a $4,300 conversion gets just a "Very good running" comment, I'd think there are a lot of other places to spend the money on.  Many Pagodas I've driven at PUB and elsewhere would get the same comment!

But, an interesting experiment.  Nice to see the car is still on various radar screens--even this one!

[ctaylor738]

They do have dyno runs to back this up.  It is in their literature, but hard to read because it's so small.  I will try to get a better version and post it. 

I forgot to add that a) DoneRite Automotive and MB600 Grand Restoration (Karl Middelhauve) are teaming up on this, and b) that I encouraged them to bring the car to PUB 2011.

[GGR]

This can be done for much cheaper and can look much more period correct than this by using Megasquirt and and D-jet hardware. I did Megasquirt a euro 5.0 M117 using a 4.5 intake manifold and most of the 4.5 Djet hardware. The engine just looks like a stock 4.5, if you don't know it you don't really see it.

In your case, I would use a euro D-jet M110. There just happen to be one in a W116 at Crazy Ray's Baltimore. If you are really serious, go snap it. I can then walk you through the process of Megasquirting it and as you are local to me you can look at my install for guidance. When the engine is ready drop it in your Pagoda and keep your untouched original engine for the day when you want to return your car to original status.

A good install can yield up to 15% more power. This means 210hp on a stock M110.

25% gain is a bit optimistic, unless the engine also got other upgrades else where. Indeed a good fuel & spark set-up can smoothen out much of the rough running caused by a much more aggressive camshaft.

[ctaylor738]

This just in from DoneRite ...

[mdsalemi]

Not sure I'm reading this correctly...

I see a marginal (100 -->110) HP increase at 4000 RPM. (Is there that much of a HP loss at the wheels?  Isn't the engine rated at 170?)

An eye-popping torque increase at around 2250 RPM, from something like 50 to 100, or about double?  Is that possible?

Anything interesting would be great to see at PUB.  Maybe El Benzo or Benzomino, from MBGrand and Karl.

For those interested in such aftermarket things, I saw some aftermarket airbags yesterday...in an advertisement in C&D.

[ecasar]

Hello,  

I am Ed Casar from Done Rite Automotive Performance, we design EFI kits and calibrate all types of performance vehicles.  Karl Middelhauve at MB 600 Grand had brought us the 280SL as a EFI conversion project.  Karl knew that these cars could benefit form electronic fuel and spark management.  This kit was designed to not adversely alter the car in any way.  The original parts can be bolted back on at any time.  

The comparison test was performed with a stock 1969 280 SL running the way it came to the shop, and the after data is running the car with the EFI.  The low RPM torque increase is mainly from steady state tuning on a chassis dyno and having compete control of the fuel and ignition timing.  At low throttle angles this kit runs a high ignition spark angle.  A mechanical advance cannot produce the nonlinear advance curve like the EFI.  

Typical driveline losses to the rear wheels are 20-25%.  Again, the comparison testing was the result of the way we received the car and after the EFI was installed and calibrated.

The kit is designed to alleviate idle and stalling issues with an electronic idle control motor ignition and fuel idle strategies.  The idle will stay constant with the power steering against relief and with the air conditioning on, no matter if the car is hot or cold.

21 – 24 mpg and drastically reduced emissions are more nice benifits.   

There are more benefits if anyone is interested.

Thanks.

[Shvegel]

The operative phrase being "The comparison test was performed with a stock 1969 280 SL running the way it came to the shop." The owner of the car probably didn't say "My car runs GREAT! I think I'll have the fuel injection system replaced."

If you need an injection pump, injectors and a fuel pump it might not be a bad way to go. But I would get spare sensors etc for the chance that 10 years from now you need one.

I hope there is a knock sensor in there somewhere.

[mdsalemi]

You got that right, Shvegel.  If you put some time and money (if need be) into getting the stock system where it should be, as designed, you will NOT have starting issues, will not have idle issues either.  Problems in either of these areas are indication that something is amiss, not a fundamental issue with the hardware choice.

While this is a good experiment and all, I can't help but think back to trying to fix ide and running issues by removing points and going to electronic ignition.  You first have to get the car running well first.

You will have the stock HP and torque curves...and it does provide a more modern approach for those that want it.

[Shvegel]

Michael,
I noticed you mentioned your car ran rough when cold. You have probably been down this road but have you looked at/replaced your warm up air filter on top of the FI pump? Someone re-plated mine with the paper filter still in it. Needless to say the paper was gone but the metal disc that used to cap the top was rattling around in there blocking warm up air flow. Drove me nuts trying to find it.

[mdsalemi]

Shvegel, thanks for the heads up.  The car isn't cold for long, and still seems to run as well or better than most so I have not been religious about nailing down the last few % of runnability issues...and I'm a nit picker on some of this stuff.  Many never noticed my lean running condition, but I did.

...that being said, I'm attacking the last few % in June, with help.

The weather and my schedule have not meshed and my car is still in storage 150 miles away, and I won't have the opportunity to get it until Memorial Day weekend.

[ctaylor738]

My view is that the mechanical pump and injectors are absolutely the best technology available - circa 1960.  The lines are visually very appealing sweeping around the front of  the engine.  It is very satisfying to tinker with the system and try to make it work right.  But it has shortcomings - the most obvious is that it has no feedback loop and can't do anything to correct itself. 

I know the EFI isn't for everyone, but I am going to take a serious look at it for my 280 project IF the aesthetics can be improved.  I think that I would rather have the additional power and improved drivability than originality.  But don't say what I think you're thinking ("Well then go buy a Malibu.") because I do greatly enjoy the cars and think this is a worthwhile improvement.  If the emissions numbers are good enough I would even consider adding a catalytic converter and actually be able to drive without guilt.

[glenn]

Are you trying to tell us that adding knock/rpm/timing/etc sensing with feedback control via computer chips to the given analog system parameters is BETTER?  I'm shocked.  Next you'll propose crossflow aspiration.  Those 1950s Germans!!  Shame on them for turning a Sherman tank into 20 Pagodas.....

[Raymond]

Chuck,
Have at it.  I believe there is a need to experiment with making our cars more compatible with the future.  There are enough of them out there that are magnificent examples of the original and elegant design.  Michael Salemi is rightly proud of the work he has done to make his just right.  It's georgeous.  But if you can find a way to make the car burn cleaner and use less fuel, then go for it, and keep us in the loop.  (Just keep the parts to revert it to original if it doesn't work out.)

[GGR]

I'm in the middle of it with my '62 Coupe in which I have fitted an early euro 5.0L M117. It's a really great experience and I learned a lot on how an engine works. I 'm now in the tuning process and it makes me realize how well cars work in stock form, as it's quite a process to get it there. I think time on a dyno is the best approach, though it's not the cheapest one.

Apart from the learning experience, one also has to consider that we may end up running our cars with different fuels given that oil is going to get rarer and more expensive. So it may be more and more blended with other stuff ending up with different properties and stochiometric values. This is where a programmable fuel & spark system comes handy as it will enable our engines to run as best as they can with different fuels.

Chuck, my car now runs well enough to get an idea of its potential. You are welcome to have a look at the install if you want to get some ideas out of it.

   

[mdsalemi]

Chuck,
But if you can find a way to make the car burn cleaner and use less fuel, then go for it, and keep us in the loop.

Raymond, thanks for the compliments.

However, keep in mind on this project (not specifically from Chuck's assessment, but from the guys who are doing the development) the raison d'etre for doing this was not cleaner burning, and better fuel economy.  Their statement was something to the effect of "curing" the "problem" of bad idle and hard starting.  Since they started with a project car that nobody was sure was operating to spec, well, that's a fundamental engineering problem in itself!

Anybody who has a bad idle and hard starting with a stock setup does NOT have a fundamental engineering issue to be solved by new EFI.  They have something wrong with the specific hardware in their specific car.  The time and money spent to correct those issues and create a car that starts well and idles well will be significantly less, guaranteed, than engineering and adapting a modern EFI system.  That does not, of course, bring any benefits other than having what was intended in the original design.

Chuck's assessment included stating the stock FI system was the best 1960 had to offer.  I agree.  So are the brakes, steering and suspension.

Now, if your goal is "working on a car" and development tinkering, for fun and challenges?  That's a horse of a different color.  If the thought of more horse power, clean, lean burning, better poise for future fuels, etc. is attractive, too?  Well than as you say--Go for it--you will not get those pleasures from the stock system.

[glenn]

The 60s Bosch FI utilized empirical data based engine management with no feedback control.  How can the Bosch system be tweaked to 1, control fuel and air separately, 2, control idle speed, 3, vary timing, 4, tie in O2, 5, control rich/lean, 6, etc, etc...?  All without major expense and reversible to original???   

Makes one appreciate FI advance over carburetors and EFI controls over mechanical injection.

I suppose a Model T could be fitted with a $4500 EFI.    What do you get?  A better running engine. .. For $4500 you should.   Hydraulic brakes make it better, too. 

Do what floats your boat.   

[GGR]

Here is a presentation of my Coupe with EFI Megasquirt fuel & spark set-up : http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=14796.0

[W113SL]

I'm sure everone here knows that in Germany in 1969 one could buy a 250E which was essentially a M129 fitted with Bosch D Jetronic system.  It developed the same HP (advertised) as the 250SE motor.

I would guess the same system might have also been available on the 280 OHC enigne.  If it ran better with fewer tune problems than the older MFI  system , I couldn't speculate.

I'm with Michael, nothing beats a properly set up MFI system.

W113SL

 

[Travis71280]

I agree with everyone here, whether its mechanical fuel injection or EFI, you can still achieve the same performance. The only difference would be instead of turning screws and adding shims, you would just modify the fuel map on EFI. Personally if I were to run EFI, I'd probably look into the self adjusting EFI controllers that tune itself on the fly like the FAST XFI or Holley EFI units where all you do is specify a target Air Fuel ratio and the computer adjusts the fuel map while you drive. I'm kind of old school though and prefer the factory MFI system myself since I'm planning on keeping the motor stock.