Correct hard / soft top handles?

[jhpcat]

I am trying to determine if my handle is correct or not (69 280SL).  I know there should be two, but I only have one which measures almost precisely 4.75 inches end to end.  Before I go looking for another one, I want to confirm that the one I have is actually correct for my car.  Can anyone weigh in on this?  (Seems like there are several different handle designs and lengths out there).  Futhermore... were all pouches black vinyl or MB Tex or were the also leather and matching the interior color?  Thanks much!

[mrfatboy]

Please post a picture of what you have. I believe all the pouches were a black vinyl.

[mnahon]

Beyond the length of the handle, there's also the length of the 'tang' to pay attention to. Have a look at this thread, and the others that it refers to.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26869.msg192328#msg192328

[jhpcat]

Sorry for the delay. I've been away for Christmas in PA.  Here are two images I think you'll find helpful.  One notes the length of the tang and overall handle, the other highlights the bearing seat that the steel ball rests in when the handle is inserted.  The production number of my car is 60133 and I dont have a clue if that matters or not.  The long handles dont work work a lick, but the short one seats very well (thats the one in my images shown here). Certainly, I'm interested in comments which enlighten me on this unsolved mystery.  Would be nice to hear from a fellow club member who also owns a 69 model 280sl so I can compare what I have against what she/he has.  With great patience, I wait.  Best  --jp in GA

[MikeSimon]

I have a late (1971) 280SL and the handles in my car look exactly like yours.

[jhpcat]

Thanks for chiming in, Mike.  Are they the same length?  12cm?

[MikeSimon]

Thanks for chiming in, Mike.  Are they the same length?  12cm?

No. Actually they are not "exactly the same". They are 14cm long.

[LakisAkylas]

The posted photos show soft top handle for an *early* (up to chasis # 012192) 280SL.  Soft top handles for later 280SL are long-tang.

Lakis

[jhpcat]

Very interesting.  I wonder if it is German vs. US specs accounting for this.  Nahhhh.  I doubt it.  This is a really strange journey I'm on.  More variations to the handles than I thought possible. Most, however seem to be 5" like yours (aka 14cm). I am going to wait for more members to post what they have just so I can be sure.    Thanks Mike!

[Jonny B]

I just checked the handles for my 280 SL (VIN 12730) and they are 12cm. I believe them to be the ones that came with the car.

Curious as to the reference for a change at 12192? There was nothing noted in the Engelen book.

[jhpcat]

Hmmmm.  So I believe my chassis number to be 010701.  So you are saying that they should be 12cm long?  Some are 14cm.  (I am getting my chassis number off the data plate on the A-pillar, left side.  Is that correct?)

[Jonny B]

These are reference to the VIN, which should be on a plate as indicate, in the door opening. I think the 280 SL is on what is considered the "B" pillar, where the door lock mechanism is. 113 044 1X XXXXXX format.

[jhpcat]

On my 69, it is located on the A-pillar for sure. No plates on the door jam areas whatsoever.

[jhpcat]

to be clear... that is where the plate is, not a stamping, as might be found on the frame or tranny, block, etc.

[Iconic]

The posted photos show soft top handle for an *early* (up to chasis # 012192) 280SL.  Soft top handles for later 280SL are long-tang.
Lakis

Mine are ~12 cm and I believe them to be original to the car. My VIN is 113 044 12 012287. Please see the picture.

Hi Lakis ! I hope all is well.
Where did you get the VIN # cut off you posted? Is it out of a book?
Take care,
Mark

[MikeSimon]

Chassis number of my car is 22774 and upon closer inspection, the front end of the handle is slightly different also.

[Jonny B]

The VIN plate changed locations at 280 SL VIN ending with 10704 in July 1969. moving to the B Pillar under the door latch mechanism. Jhpcat, so yours is just before the change. Sorry about that.

It is stamped on the front chassis under the intake manifold .

The other body stampings (hood, transmission plate, softtop case, and hard top are the body number that is on the plate inside the engine bay by the secondary hood release.

[LakisAkylas]

Well, the cut-off VIN I posted may not be exactly accurate (I believe it was stated in an earlier discussion of this same issue in this forum). At any rate, my car (VIN 022689) has the long-tang handles and they are original to the car.

Lakis

[jhpcat]

Jonny, as you can see, this is a genuine MB plate on my A-pillar. Might be one at the intake manifold, but this is easier to get to (unless I am confused about what plate you have in mind)

[jhpcat]

and a second angle...

[Jonny B]

Aha, should have recalled this. This is the "visible VIN" a requirement in the US to have the VIN number observable from outside the car.
From the list of changes:

VIN ending 7114, 23 Dec 1968 USA cars with the additional VIN plate on the windshield frame, to comply with US requirement for “public” view, per 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) 565

The VIN under the intake manifold should still be in place.

To get back to close two topic. The two piece soft top handle was put in place for the 250 SL on VIN ending 5089, near the end of November 1967

[jhpcat]

Thanks Jonny.  Can you please tell me how long your pouch is, or better yet, send me an image incase the bottom of the pouch is mitered which is the case with some of the pouches over the years.  (assuming you believe your pouch to be original).  I need a pouch so this will help me to know when I am looking at the correct pouch for my 69 280SL.  I very much appreciate all the attention you are giving me.

[Iconic]

Guys,
Isn't it true that the same handles that started when Jonny B states (250 SL VIN 5089 November '67) went to the end of production for W113?
I thought I learned years ago that the longer handles (~14 CM with a longer case) were from the R107. The picture I posted a few replies ago are what I believe to be original on everything W113 Pagoda after the VIN that Jonny B stated. Am I wrong?

[Jonny B]

I think there is one style handle and the one type of pouch. Pictures attached as requested.

[neelyrc]

Mark, the handles in your post 14 above are identical to my original ones delivered with the car at the factory (007749 January 1969 production).  As indicated in the referenced threads above, I also have a a set of the longer tang 14cm handles.  I ordered these from MB in 1970 and they came without the pouch.  It is my belief
 that these are for late 113s which I understand had a different latch mechanism at the windshield.  I don’t know when the change took place.  The handles for my 107 (560sl) are even longer than the 14 cm long tang handles. I don’t know if earlier 107s had different handles.

Perhaps MikeSimon can advise if his late 113 handles are the same as my 14cm long handles pictured here with my original handles.

[Pawel66]

It is my believe that these are for late 113s which I understand had a different latch mechanism at the windshield.  I don’t know when the change took place.  The handles for my 107 (560sl) are even longer than the 14 cm long tang handles. I don’t know if earlier 107s had different handles.

Perhaps MikeSimon can advise if his late 113 handles are the same as my 14cm long handles pictured here with my original handles.

What I could find in the system that may help (up until the below chassis number the PN for soft top handles and PN for hard top handles are different; there are 3 types of PN for hard top handles that I see):

As of chassis number 044 0012193 the soft top handle is A 1077760017.
Same part number is the last PN of hard top handles (no info as of which chassis number). It has also become a replacement part for latch assemblies 9with additional parts).

It would be logical that when A1077760017 was introduced for soft top, it could also be introduced for hard top. They could start equipping cars with just one handle instead of 3 or 4 - saving. I do not know if they did that, but part list states as number required for a car: 1 in the hard top section, 2 in the soft top section.

I am very happy to have 230SL solution both in soft top and hard top.

[jhpcat]

Thank you gentlemen.  I believe that there is enough evidence to me to make rather certain the fact that my 69 280SL is to have the 12cm handles as per the images you have provided.  I really appreciate it and ask that you now keep yer eyes peeled for the one handle and pouch that I am missing for my car.  (I am amazed at how many people THINK they have the correct handles, when it is not actually the case.  Just because the handle fits in the socket, doesnt mean it's "correct".)  My gratitude to all who have contributed to this thread.  Happy New Year, and if every you are near Atlanta, I'll  buy you a hamburger, ...just as Wimpy would surely do!

[jhpcat]

I must add one final comment.  There is much talk about the "tang".  I really dont know for sure what that is, but I believe it to be the actual part of the tool that your hand would grip.  For example it might comprise roughly 10.5cm of a 12cm handle.  That being said, there is one other characteristic that very much stands out.  The 12cm handles posted here have a miter to the casting at the male end, whereas many (but not all) handles I have seen are not mitered in the same way at the male end.  They are squared off. I think this is very important to understand that it is not just about tang length, but also what the make end looks like.  And now that I've made this point, I must admit that I do not have any idea as to what is correct for those who claim their 14cm handles are correct.  Miter or no miter to the castings?

[MikeSimon]

Mark, the handles in your post 14 above are identical to my original ones delivered with the car at the factory (007749 January 1969 production).  As indicated in the referenced threads above, I also have a a set of the longer tang 14cm handles.  I ordered these from MB in 1970 and they came without the pouch.  It is my believe that these are for late 113s which I understand had a different latch mechanism at the windshield.  I don’t know when the change took place.  The handles for my 107 (560sl) are even longer than the 14 cm long tang handles. I don’t know if earlier 107s had different handles.

Perhaps MikeSimon can advise if his late 113 handles are the same as my 14cm long handles pictured here with my original handles.

Ralph:
It looks like my handles - believed to be original - are identical to the lower set shown in your second picture. I will post a picture as soon as i get around to it.

[LakisAkylas]

Hello Ralph and Mark,

The handles for my car (12/70, VIN ending in 22689) are exactly the ones at the bottom of the photo. They are original to the car.  The vinyl pouch looks the same.

Lakis

[Iconic]

Lakis,
Is your pouch ~5.75 in (~14.6 cm)?
Or is it longer?
And, sorry to ask this, but how certain are you that they are original to the car?
Regards,
Mark

[MikeSimon]

Here are pictures from my handles. Car 22774. Believed to be original. 3rd owner and have the car since 1982.
Length is 14cm. look at the ends that slip into the cam locks. The machined step is straight, not slanted, and they are missing the hole for a ball seat. That lends credence to the prior statement that the mechanism may have changed. I have ONE handle, which I cannot find right now, that seems to be for the same function, but it is not chromed and significantly longer.

[neelyrc]

I must add one final comment.  There is much talk about the "tang".  I really dont know for sure what that is, but I believe it to be the actual part of the tool that your hand would grip.  For example it might comprise roughly 10.5cm of a 12cm handle.  That being said, there is one other characteristic that very much stands out.  The 12cm handles posted here have a miter to the casting at the male end, whereas many (but not all) handles I have seen are not mitered in the same way at the male end.  They are squared off. I think this is very important to understand that it is not just about tang length, but also what the make end looks like.  And now that I've made this point, I must admit that I do not have any idea as to what is correct for those who claim their 14cm handles are correct.  Miter or no miter to the castings?

Jhpcat, what I call the tang is the flat portion that is inserted into the top mechanism.  I understand that the tang of a knife is the straight portion of the blade that extends into the knife handle.  I do not know how the word came to be applied here but it seems to me to be descriptive.

The tang of my 12cm handle inserts fully into the mechanism of my 280SL top with the mitered surface flat against the mechanism. The tang of the 14cm handle has the same cross section as the 12cm handle and can be inserted into the mechanism on my top but can not be inserted fully due to the tang length.  It can be used to operate the mechanism but from the “feel” it seems clear that it is not correct.  I believe that the 14 cm handles are correct for LakisAkylas’ later car and for MikeSimons later car. Does the tang of this longer handle insert fully into the top mechanism on these later cars?

[LakisAkylas]

Hi Mark,

The handles and pouch that came with my car are identical to those in the photos by MikeSimon above. This makes sense considering that the VIN of his car is very close to mine (22689).  I am the second owner of my pagoda — I bought the car directly from the original owner who claimed that the handles were original.

Lakis

[Iconic]

Thanks Lakis, Ralph, and others. I think I got it now.

[MikeSimon]

  I believe that the 14 cm handles are correct for LakisAkylas’ later car and for MikeSimons later car. Does the tang of this longer handle insert fully into the top mechanism on these later cars?

Ralph: Yes, they do. At least on the hardtop, which I have on the car right now.

[jhpcat]

I think its interesting that the longer 14cm handles do not have seats for the steel balls in the latches.  Does this mean that on those later cars there are no steel balls?  I peeked inside the socket of the latches on my  69 280Sl which uses the 12cm handles and there are indeed small steel balls inside.

[Rahul]

Does anyone know where to source a decent black vinyl pouch for the handles?

My understanding is that OEM ones are no longer available.

The only place I have seen that offers similar pouches is the Authentic Classics site, but they have been out of stock of black vinyl ones for over a year now (I believe because their supplier was a one-man operation that stopped producing them).

Would there be any interest in a group buy if we could find someone that could reproduce them?

Thanks!

[mauro12]

Hi guys , I was curious if it’s a common problem to all of you or not . I do not have the front handles to lock in place the hard top . For the soft top they are attached to the whole piece and there is no problem , but for the hard top I’ve never had since I bought the car in 2001. I’ve always used a screwdriver   or a general tool to make a leverage in order to lock the front hard top .
Are you in the same problem ? I wanted to buy the set of 2 handles but the price is quite high and it can be easily replaced by a general flat tool.
Also is not clear why they sell 2 handles,  since is also possible to have the same effect by having 1 only , you just lock or unlock one at a time .

[mdsalemi]

Of course, my car is a 1969 280SL, early build, -7262.
I have ONE set of handles. I think there is a set screw where one could leave the handles in place, but I use the handles for both hard and soft top, and when locked in place, put them in the nice original vinyl pouch and store in the glove box.

[mauro12]

Mike , basically are you saying that the handles that I have in my soft top are the handles that could be used for the hard top too?
Those in the soft top are screwed inside the whole piece .

[dirkbalter]

Mike , basically are you saying that the handles that I have in my soft top are the handles that could be used for the hard top too?
Those in the soft top are screwed inside the whole piece .

Mauro,
That's interesting. My (66 230) has permanent handles in the hard top as well.

[mauro12]

For this reason I have to use a screwdriver or a flat tool to put the hardtop on .
I don’t know if the handles have been lost from the previous owners of the car or maybe they are in the soft top and could be removed to use for the hardtop too.
Good question .

[mauro12]

Anyway , 2 handles cost around 200€. I don’t think it’s worth to spend this money . You loose probably 30seconds more with a general tool but the effect and result is the same .

[mdsalemi]

I can only speak about my car, which is a 1969. Other cars may be different. As I mentioned, it has one set of handles which you use for both the hardtop and the soft top. The very fact that there is a pouch to store them indicates that you remove them and use them as necessary. Attached are photos of the hardtop and the soft top fittings. The first photo on top, is of the hard top. The photo below that is the soft top, which is up and fastened. Note that the "receiver" for lack of a better word, is basically identical.

Again, this is only on my car. I cannot speak to others.

[BobH]

As far as i know all cars had fixed, non removable handles in the soft top and hard top until November 67, just before the end of production 250's changed to removable handles, so assume one pair was supplied for both tops.  I guess if a later 280 hard top was bought for an earlier car, it won't have fixed handles and will need a set of removable handles, or as Mauro says, improvise

[Jonny B]

The soft top handles were made removable at 250 SL VIN ending in 5089. This is in the list of changes for the Pagoda from Frank Mallory's listing in the Mercedes Collector magazine.

[rwmastel]

Mauro,

You probably have an early style soft top (230, or early 250) with fixed handles.  You probably have a late hard top (late 250, or 280) with removable handles.

I would assume you could buy a set of handles from a member for under 200 Euro.

[mdsalemi]

Don’t the [considerably more plentiful and less costly] R107 handles fit into the W113 receivers? I seem to recall in the past that these were readily available, but not perfectly “correct”. Certainly this is better than using a screwdriver…!!!???

http://tinyurl.com/3d4yatj7  From Etsy. OOPS SEE BELOW*
http://tinyurl.com/cesm23fz  From eBay

One of our better known suppliers, Vintage Euro, also has them for W113. https://vintageeuroparts.com/?s=soft+top+handles&post_type=product&dgwt_wcas=1 Don’t know if used or reproduction.

*Sorry, Etsy is one of those poorly designed websites that doesn't allow easily sharing a link. The link I have above takes you to the general Etsy website, NOT the product I had discovered. See the photo, and go to Etsy and search for "R107 Soft Top Handles" and you'll find the photo below unless they have sold out.

[Pawel66]

The soft top handles were made removable at 250 SL VIN ending in 5089. This is in the list of changes for the Pagoda from Frank Mallory's listing in the Mercedes Collector magazine.

Soft top change is also reflected in the spare parts catalogue, confirming your finding. In addition, some 6 first 280SLs went back to one-piece handles and then as of VIN 000007 to VIN 012192 back to two-pieces ones, to be replaced again by a 107 handles after.

But I am not responding in this discussion because I could not figure out what happened to the hard top handles. Were they replaced at the same moment? No clue. We can speculate that yes, but I am not sure.

All in all my car was ordered without a soft top. One of the POs installed a late soft top with one-piece locks - I am grateful for that! My hard top also has one-piece locks, most likely replaced by a PO as well - and I am also grateful for that! It is so much more convenient! I have read here on the forum that this change was due to safety regulations. It has nothing to do with comfort, I am afraid.

Back to earlier question from Mauro - a set was two pieces as per the parts list.

[mauro12]

My vin ends with 001533. I have an early 250sl and I’m pretty sure the hard top is the original one and hasn’t been replaced . Soft top handles cannot be removed .

[Pawel66]

With this VIN, you should have single piece handles in soft top. Hard top - no idea, as I wrote. If the hard top is original it should have the appropriate number stamped on its rear rim.

[rwmastel]

If the hard top is original it should have the appropriate number stamped on its rear rim.

Mauro,

Yes, compare the hard top stamped production number to the one on the hood.  It is also on the soft top cover lid, I believe?  Maybe also on the transmission support plate?  These should all match and you will know if your hard top is original to your car.

For 230SL like mine and early 250SL like yours, all handles should be fixed into the mechanisms on both tops.  No need for a pouch.

[mauro12]

Thank you guys . I will check . I have also the data card with all numbers .

[mauro12]

Do you know exactly where the hardtop number should be specifically?

[mauro12]

I’ve just looked in the data card and there is no hardtop number , only option 416 hardtop mounted on the car . Should be a number on the data card that matches the one printed on the hard top ?

[Pawel66]

Mauro, we are talking about the last 3 or 4 digits of the Aufbau number that are stamped on various parts of the body (hood, trunk lid, gear box support, soft top, hard top). Refer please to the Technical Manual, line 4 here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/BodyandPaintNumberPlate

I am sorry, I do not have picture of exact location of this number on hard top, perhaps this can help, reply No. 5: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=474.msg1957#msg1957

[BobH]

Have a look on here

https://www.motoringinvestments.com/mercedes-280sl-w113-buyers-guide/

[Pawel66]

I had a similar idea

http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm

Go to Mercedes, look for "Holy Grail", scroll down through pictures a bit.

[dirkbalter]

Mauro.
On mine its on the rear underside crossbar of the top. 

[mauro12]

Thank you all guys . I have to go in garage and check . I haven’t been using the hard top for 5 years now . It’s stored in the trolley cart .

[zoegrlh]

Yes a set of handles come in a pair.

[mauro12]

I guys , I’ve just checked and I have the same number printed on the hard top and the bonnet , 1403. It means that the hard top and the bonnet are original .
No handles in the hard top .
What’s your view on that ?

[Jonny B]

Could the original handles have been replaced at some time with the two-piece ones? It is most unusual that an early 250 SL hard top would have the separate handles.

[mauro12]

Maybe in the hard top were removable handles and the previous owner lost it .

[rwmastel]

That's very strange that the production number on the bonnet and hard top is original and matching the data card and fender plate.  (Fender plate - see at bottom of this link, explanation of row 4. https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/BodyandPaintNumberPlate)

I don't know why your fixed handles would be changed out for removable handles.  How about the handles at the b-pillar?  Those should be fixed to the top as well.  The hard top on my w107 450SL uses the same removable handles from the windshield latches to operate the b-pillar latches.  I assume 280SL Pagodas are the same?  What do you have?

[mauro12]

I guess the easiest thing that has happened is that the handles for the hard top were removable for the production of my car ( April 1967) and they have been lost somehow .
I’m happy to see that all my number matches perfectly .