Author Topic: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio (SOLVED!)  (Read 6108 times)

FGN59

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2020, 06:14:03 »
Good morning everyone. Another fine day in Provence, and a path towards more clarity on my problem, maybe.

First of, thank you all for your inputs, as always extremely comforting and useful, even if sometimes drawing a smile.

Commenting on your recent suggestions:

- the clutch is fine, been checked and adjusted recently in preparation for our Moroccan adventure (that got cancelled); tachometer shows exactly the same readings before and after adjustment

- alas, both the data card and the reverse position on the shifter indicate this is not a 5-speed transmission

- I bought a small electronic rev counter on Amazon yesterday to test the Pawel hypothesis,  for which I will have plenty of uses afterwards fine tuning the various mowers, generator, chainsaw, etc.

Absent a revelation from the latter, I am at a loss to explain (and improve) the situation...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 12:20:23 by FGN59 »
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Peter van Es

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2020, 07:55:17 »
Hi François,

I checked my rpms... ~3300 at 100 km/h, and ~4000 at 120  km/h. With our magnificent Cw value, the wind noise is louder than the engine noise, esp with the top up. Extrapolating to 140 km/h, you'd be at ~4700 revs, ~5000 at 150 km/h. Eminently doable, even for long stretches.

Peter
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

450sl

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2020, 10:12:10 »
ahh Peter, it seems 3300rpms are the absolute limit for you , that could mean a speedticket.   :) :) :)gr mark

FGN59

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2020, 10:39:55 »
Hello Peter,

Thanks so much for checking for me. This is more proof that something is wrong on my car: I need to push it to 4.325 rpms to reach 100 km/h, extrapolating to 150 km/h would yield roughly 6.450 rpms, well into the red zone.

Let’s hope the tachometer is off, because otherwise I have simply no idea what is going on. An answer maybe by Monday, when Amazon delivers my new electronic tacho.
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

FGN59

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2020, 11:59:45 »
Another hint in favour of the Pawel hypothesis is the idle regime:

- as I've written before, the car's engine has been completely redone, in a way that seems excellent
- prior to that, in 2015, the FIP was checked and calibrated by a specialist in Paris
- when the engine renovation was finished, the car was put back together by an excellent mechanic (who was not an MB specialist however); although the PO did things very well, I would say that the term 'no expense spared' does not exactly apply; it was very well done, but there was some small pressure or constraint to keep the amount reasonable (altogether, it still cost close to 20.000€ in 2019, of which ⅔ or 12.000€ just for time spent putting the car back together, including fitting new engine mounts and subframe parts); despite this, there were some small mistakes made, of which I caught 3 so far (missing bolt to secure the air filter box, which obviously fell in while the guy was putting it in, and which he left in the well below the airbox for me to find later and put it back in, wrong wiring in the TTS (G and W wires exchanged), and wrong program dialled into the new 123 Distributor, as well as wrong timing of the ignition (not enough BTDC at idle)
- now that I have had the car for a little bit more than 6 months, working out one (small) issue after another and breaking in the engine, I find that it runs extremely well, especially after setting the distributor and ignition timing right of course; I'm still not 100% happy with some transitions, such as when the car coasts in low regime (1.200-1.500 rpms), when the accelerator is neither depressed nor at rest (just giving it a sliver of fuel), where it seems that it is somewhat starved (there are oscillations where the car clearly needs more fuel to run smoothly), when going down an incline at slow speeds, where there is some backfiring (I think this is what you call it), muted explosions in the exhaust, (the fuel cut off solenoid is not activated, even though I checked it is working and the relay as well; must be the switches on the gearbox, that I will address in another time frame) and some such minor stuff, but altogether it gives a very convincing performance of being strong, in overall excellent shape, and not badly tuned at all (not boasting of my performance, as I had nothing to do with it except for the ignition)
- having said all that as an introduction, at idle, the engine sounds absolutely as it should, easy and at rest, strong and quiet, calm and even, but the tacho says it is running at 1.000 rpms instead of 800 rpms since I adjusted the timing (and I haven't done anything about that yet)
- the maths is very close: 4.325 rpms instead of 3.475rpms for 100km/h yields an 'overclocking' ratio of 1.24, and the 'above normal' idle ratio would be 1.000/800 = 1.23, identical if one takes into account all the errors in the various measurements and estimates.

I'm obviously putting too much stock into my idle regime impressions at this stage, but it is a tantalizing idea, that once again, it would all be 'much ado about (almost) nothing', a false tacho reading, while all the time the car has been absolutely fine and I can soon roar down the highway in full pursuit of Peter and consorts  ;D

I can't wait until Monday to find out if this is the (easy) out on this one.

This then begs the follow-up question though: what could cause the false reading of the tacho?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 04:55:44 by FGN59 »
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Pawel66

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2020, 12:18:56 »
This is going to be my big fail, when you discover the real cause...

To answer the question: e.g. diesel tacho internals. Or other change in the inner ratios. I think.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

FGN59

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2020, 04:53:39 »
Pawel

To be clear, I didn’t mean to put you on the spot as a potential scapegoat, but because I truly appreciate it when people either spot a weakness in some construction, whether intellectual or physical, or think ‘outside of the box’, both of which you consistently apply in your helpful, witty, and highly original suggestions. I hope you realize that  :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 22:06:56 by FGN59 »
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Pawel66

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2020, 06:24:42 »
Sure!  :)

Anxious to find out what the issue was!
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

FGN59

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1/ Pawel is a genius (see pictures below). If nobody ever told you that before, let me be the first  ;D.

There's a whole branch of mathematics dealing only with logic, if you don't know what to do with your spare time, maybe you could show these guys some of your stuff?

This is great news, and I am happy, just plain happy, that my car is normal. Isn't it a bit silly? 8)

2/ Now what? I don't really know how the tachometer works (I imagine it must involve some magnetic field created by the rotating end of the cable that comes from the engine, then a needle that reads the magnetic fleld?). I can see how you can have it tweaked by a specialist if it is off by a few percent, but in my case it is off by +25% (eg when the engine runs at 2.000 rpms the tacho shows 2.500 rpms). Is it just a matter of tweaking? Or is there a gear with the wrong ratio somewhere that needs to be swapped for the right one? I have no idea...

3/ Peter, I'm coming for you and your pals!  ;)

Thanks all for your help, advice, support, and good mood. :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 22:09:25 by FGN59 »
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

FGN59

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Why do pictures come out upside down? When I reverse them, they still do ???
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 18:36:47 by FGN59 »
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Pawel66

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1/ Pawel is a genius (see pictures below). If nobody ever told you that before, let me be the first  ;D.


Actually, yes, you are the first, others must have held it for themselves, I guess, as I usually hear the opposite.

Tell it please to my wife, my Boss and my kids. In this order if you were so kind.  ;)

Happy you figured out what was wrong without dismantling rear axle!
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

JamesL

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Re: Rear axle ratio identification and strange revs vs speed ratio
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2020, 21:09:24 »
Great result
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather