Author Topic: Disc rotors & pads  (Read 8717 times)

johndd

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Disc rotors & pads
« on: May 31, 2013, 08:21:11 »
Looking into a brake service for my W126 300SEL. Just want to stay standard, no need for oversized dinner plates nor multi calapers arrangements with fancy paint jobs. Nor do I have the need for crossed drilled rotors that resemble an Italian cheese slicer nor with fused volcanic lava and diamond encrusted pads, simply the standard rotors and pads that leave my shiny wheels black every week will do. Any recommendations for brands of disc rotors and pads and any to avoid will be appreciated.

jameshoward

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 09:06:40 »
Simple: ATE or Bosch. The car probably came with ATE discs and pads. They're readily available and not overly expensive.

Just picked up ATE rear discs, pads and handbrake shoes for about 90 euros for my 113.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

stickandrudderman

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 17:09:37 »
Just buy originals from your MB dealer. They're not expensive.

jameshoward

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 18:39:13 »
Just buy originals from your MB dealer. They're not expensive.

Which will probably be Ate at a mark up... ::)

For what its worth MB prices were almost exactly double the price of the Ate parts, and that's with discount. Don't go to MB, you're wasting your money for no benefit.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

stickandrudderman

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 19:10:53 »
I disagree but it's your money and your choice.

jameshoward

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 19:58:09 »
Colin,

You're quite right about how one spends ones' luca, of course. However, people use this forum to get advice about their cars, quite obviously. Some, like me, use it to get advice on how to fix things because we like to work on the car. Others, like me, too, need the site because I can't really afford to pay a Ninja like you to do the work my car needs. MB parts are in some cases essential, but not where brake parts or consumables are concerned. I was simply saying that it makes no sense to pay the ludicrous prices MB charge for some parts when you can get exactly the same parts for half the price elsewhere. As i said, I got brand new discs, pads and shoes for half the price MB charge. A glance at the BBB will show that the cars use Ate, so there should be no concerns about buying these parts. MB rip classic car owners off quite enough as it is. I see little point in helping them make it easier.

You wouldn't buy your tyres from MB, would you?

 ;D
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

stickandrudderman

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 22:44:23 »
All I know is I can drive your car and tell you whether you've got genuine brakes or not.
I am also obliged, as a professional, to ensure that my customers get the best. Not just in materials, but in service, reliability and back up. If I use aftermarket parts then some or all of these elements become compromised.
I am certainly not here to dictate to owners what they can and can't do, only to inform anyone interested what I would do and at no charge!

Iconic

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 01:01:34 »
In support of stickandrudderman, I would like to add that just because Ate has disks and pads that fit our cars, and assuming Ate makes the disks and pads for MB, that does not mean they are of the exact same design specification and/or materials.
For some parts they might be the same, but for others, I know that an OEM supplier can manufacture to a different specification for MB or any one else.
The thing is, there is really no way to know (unless a part number is stamped in the part).
But, when a guy like stickandrudderman says he can feel the difference, that makes me think there are differences.
The differences might not be important to some, but they can be important to others.
Since I had a muffler fiasco, I go first to the Classic center for parts (except for shocks   :D  ). They always fit and do what they are supposed to do. And I count on them doing it for as long as they should.
The wonderful thing is that this is a free world, mostly, and we can do what we want with respect to what parts we decide to buy for our own (or our customer's) cars.
1970 280 SL Automatic, USA version, Grey-Blue (906G/906G), Blue leather (245)
1968 SS396 Camaro Convertible (owned since 1977 -- my first car :D)
1984 Porsche Euro Carrera coupe, LSD, SlateBlueMet/Blue
1998 BMW M-Rdstr Estoril Blue
1970 280 SL Automatic, Anthracite Grey-173G, Red Interior-132 - sold

jameshoward

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 08:12:39 »
Colin,

You do come out with some real pearls from time to time. ::)

Never a dull moment.
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

m300cab

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 03:34:51 »
I believ I have a set, email me we can discuss further
m300cab@gmail.com
Michael Parlato

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 17:20:38 »
I'm not sure about brake rotors; I think maybe pads make as much difference in how well a car stops but I will agree with one thing - the hand full of people on this site who do this for a living offer their advice for free.

Since most people live too far away from our on line gurus they wouldn't be able to work on your car anyway, even if you wanted them to work on it. I've had cars come from as far away as Iowa and WV so they're not all local. I kind of have to laugh to myself when somone from Toronto tells me I live too far away. ( 3 hours )  ;D
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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mdsalemi

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 18:02:08 »
We have discussed this before.  I have brought up the quality issue with consultants who specialize in it, and they all seem to agree that if a manufacturer is making a specific part, the quality is the same regardless of the end use or box color.  So, if ATE is making brake pads for Mercedes for our car, and also selling the same part aftermarket, it is the same part. But you have to compare the same part to the same part...and that can get tricky some time.

I posed this quality question directly to Bosch some years ago, specifically because someone came to this site and proferred the nonsense that a Bosch-rebuilt starter or alternator was a different quality when bought through a Mercedes dealer.  Here is Bosch's response, directly from the person responsible for quality:

Mr. Salemi :
 
As per the request below from MR. XXXX, I am responding to your question concerning Bosch quality with respect to Rotating electrical products. In my capacity as General Product Manager for Rotating Electrical Products for NAFTA, I have considerable interaction with our OES (Original Equipment) and Aftermarket sales divisions here in the U.S. as well as with our Remanufacturing facility and Marketing divisions in Germany.
I can assure you that your initial thoughts are correct. It does not matter what the color or design of the external packaging is, Bosch only has one quality level....Premium. Regardless of whether you purchase a remanufactured starter or alternator from a Mercedes distribution channel, or through an aftermarket warehouse distributor / Jobber here in the U.S. all of the product is remanufactured on the exact same assembly lines to the same exacting standards in the same Bosch owned and operated facilities.
 
Bosch customers and the Bosch name are too important to attempt to achieve a lower selling price, at the Risk of reduced quality.
 
Best regards / Mit Freundlichen Grüßen,



That being said, sometimes the parts from Mercedes are less costly than one might think.  That has ALSO been discussed before and others have pointed out that some eBay sellers in particular, have prices higher than normal retailers AND Mercedes! And, regarding my query, there is a distinct difference between new and rebuilt.  Finally, there are some people I'm told, selling Bosch remanufactured starters and alternators, that are remanufacture, but not by Bosch.  They are done in China, and have been described, not surprisingly, as junk.  What a waste of a good core... :-\

And Dan is quite right: to the best of my knowledge, Stick and the Dr. (Colin and Dan) are the ones making a living at this that pass their experience here for free.  Not many others do that.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 18:06:13 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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2019 Ford Flex SEL
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 20:38:06 »
Quote
And Dan is quite right: to the best of my knowledge, Stick and the Dr. (Colin and Dan) are the ones making a living at this that pass their experience here for free.  Not many others do that.

I think you can add garymand to that list!

There are others on here who know plenty, yourself included, but the fact remains that any advice given here is indeed free and also, like any other internet forum advice, not to be relied upon as a definitive source of information.

I've been at this a long, long time, and some of my beliefs were learnt a long time ago. They may or may not be accurate today but they certainly were when I learnt them and are the principles on which I work and it seems to meet the needs of a lot of people.

mdsalemi

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 21:32:06 »
but the fact remains that any advice given here is indeed free and also, like any other internet forum advice, not to be relied upon as a definitive source of information.

There are plenty of other "forums", non-internet, that can be or have been, hotbeds of misinformation.  The internet is just a delivery method, not a source by itself.  It's still people behind it and they can be right, wrong, or somewhere inbetween whether they are face to face; at a dealer; at an independent, paid or free, or on this internet forum!  Don't sell it short!

Don't know garymand, will have to look him up!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
2019 Ford Edge SEL

Peter van Es

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 13:33:02 »
These are garymand's posts.
1970 280SL. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

garymand

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 21:13:06 »
Thanks Stickandrudderman,  Not sure how I got into this one.  I'm new here but bought my first Benz, a 190sl, in 1970.  Unfortunately it was from Germany and the body was mostly bondo and I could not get over the drop pedals and 90 HP 4 banger.  But the overhead cam, tuned intake, tuned exhaust, and beautiful dash cause a viral brain infection. I was part time working my way through school as a foreign car mechanic at the local college: Stanford.  A wide variety of european and japanese cars to play with.  in 72 I snatched my 250SL for $4200.  Bought a full set of manuals and tore it all apart and rebuiltnearly everything.  I've learned a lot from mistakes, but living in Coopertino CA, I easily located a few real experts who were grateful to share correct wrenching tips to a neophyte who  appreciated the expertise and engineering excellence that went into 1960's Benz's.   I've owned nothing but Benzs since and I do all my own work and work on a few friends cars.  Its a passion / hobby with no end, there is always some new challenge, sometimes self-inflicted. 

Here is just one example: My wify borrowed the sl one day and fried the motor, Exactly what happened has never been fully disclosed.  Her 280sel was hit from behind, smashed into the car in front while stopped at a light, totaled the sel.  Hense, the need to borrow the sl.  So I eagerly swap the 250 with her totaled 70 280sel motor. 

Why?  The 250, while much better than a 230 motor, just never accelerated as much as I need.  The 280 was better, but had a mis-adjusted FIP, running too rich according to work orders from the prior owner and many things, even valves where tried, but nothing directed at the FIP.  I've played with the FIP adjustments for about 20 years now.  off an on for years with tail sniffers all with no repeatability.  I stumbled onto an air/fuel /O2 sensor/meter that does repeat and really dug into fine tuning the FIP.  It is, just today, pretty close to perfect and accelerates a bit quicker that I hoped.  It feels more like low 200HP.  Impressive!  It still has the 250 pressure plate and disk and on these 110 degree days at 75 mph if I floor it the clutch will slip, next project: will a 280 pressure plate bolt to a 250 flywheel? and take the torque of this reborn 280 beast.

Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, 560SEL, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2013, 18:20:36 »
I think your clutch disc may be worn. I'm pretty sure the 3250 and 280 use mostly the same parts - at least the disc is the same.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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garymand

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2013, 21:49:43 »
Thanks, I was afraid the bolt pattern might be different on the Diaphram pressure plate used on the 280.  I also assume the clamping pressure is higher on the 280 pressure plate to handle the higher HP.   Any experience there?

I hate to R&R the clutch disc and find the pressure plate is why the disc is slipping.
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, 560SEL, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

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Re: Disc rotors & pads
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 22:14:55 »
I'm using a 280SL pressure plate on my 250SL engined 230SL. (try saying that three times in a row )  It was a bit of a challenge to figure out what parts would work with the five speed because the regular 280SL throw out bearing wouldn't work.
So, yes, a 280 pressure plate will work.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn