Anti-Freeze

[hrwilson]

My W113 is getting head done just now as one of the valve guides is worn and the car was smoking. The head showed a fair bit of corrosion round the combustion chambers and the guys doing the recon advise me this is probably because the wrong anti-freeze has been used. I post this as a warning, I'm sure the topic has been covered before but it doesn't come up as a red flag. The head has now been welded and ground back down, looks great. The valve guide has been re-made (no buying things for this shop!) and I am now waiting to see what Mercedes can supply in terms of timing chain, head gasket, valve seals etc. Question though, is current MB anti-freeze OK for the car?

[mdsalemi]

I think Joe Alexander has mentioned "just buy the antifreeze at a dealer" and be done with it.
However, if you want the science behind it, there's plenty of information out there available for searching. What we need is a coolant designed for multi-metal operations as we have brass, aluminum and cast iron all parts of the cooling system.

When was the last time your coolant was changed? Maybe somewhere along the way someone thought coolant was forever; it's not. It starts basic, and ages to acidic and it doesn't take much acid to eat aluminum. Just look at any old pitted cockpit! And that's just from tomato sauce! Your coolant should be changed every couple of years. Time to do mine this season!

[wwheeler]

This raises a good question. We just bought a used '10 ML350 and the maintenece schedule on the coolant flush was something like 120-150K miles!!! I couldn't believe it and checked a few forums including MBCA to confirm. From what I read, it is determental to change this new coolant before the recommended interval. Why? According to the forum, it is because the coolant forms a protective coating on the parts in contact with coolant to prevent corrosion. When you flush it, the coating has to start the process over.

Is there any truth to that AND is that good to have that same coolant technology in our 50 year old cooling systems? New isn't always better (as in motor oil).    

[Benz Dr.]

I did some tests last fall using regular green coolant and the new MB blue coolant. Both gave the same level of protection from freezing at the same mix ratios and for the most part they were pretty much the same in all but one area. When it came to alkalinity reserves, the MB coolant was much better. Since you have dissimilar metals in your engine this is your best choice. And, it's only a bit more than the regular stuff.

Dan

[ja17]

The PH levels of different brands of anti-freezes varies greatly. Even though MB anti-freeze is manufactured by a well known supplier, it is specifically formulated for Mercedes engines. The MB dealer will supply you with antifreeze suitable for an early vehicle.  Some other brands are acceptable if you change a little more often. However some brands of anti-freeze are out of spec. even when they are brand new they can have a PH of 9 to 11PH. You can also test the PH level of your fluid to see when it needs changed. It should be between 7 and 8.5 Ph.  I just use the MB fluid, its not that much more. There is a very scientific discussion of the whole issue by  George Murphy in a "Star Magazine" a few years back. I will see if I can find it.

[wwheeler]

I never use the green stuff! I have been using Zerex G05 but that is for another topic. So I guess what I hear is that there are different coolants at the MB dealer and get the one for early cars. Is there a part number? I am going to start using that soon and just wanted to make sure. Some counter guys are more informed than others. 

When I bought my W111, it had the green stuff and the damage to go along with it. I couldn't get that stuff out fast enough!

Thanks for the info.

[mdsalemi]

If you want to boggle your mind, or just have some intense, interesting reading, there is plenty about antifreeze technology. Yeah, for the most part raw (undiluted antifreeze) is more than 90% PG (propylene glycol, which is "non-toxic") or EG (toxic ethylene glycol). The balance are all the "additives" or inhibitors which include a Pandora's box of proprietary chemistry including silicates, phosphates, pH adjusters, organic acids, borates, corrosion inhibitors which include BTA, TTA...get the picture? I think most of us can be equally mystified by going to the antifreeze aisle of an AutoZone or Walmart!

Take the advice of experts...use a brand/formulation specified for our car, check your pH, change your fluids...

I'd be interested to get the part number of antifreeze from MB specified for our older engines and cooling systems...anyone?

[JPMOSE]

Good question Mike.   I'm beginning to wonder if the newer blue MB antifreeze is the only one available?   Look at the attached MB document. 

[thelews]

I've seen that using tap water to mix is a negative, only distilled water.

[mdsalemi]

I've seen that using tap water to mix is a negative, only distilled water.

You'd think that it would be a given, John.

Our water here has a lot of minerals in it, and the hardness numbers proffered by government here are misleading. The numbers say we are on the soft end of hard water (6 grains?) but all you have to do is look at a shower head, the ring around a pot after you boil tap water, or look at a humidified filter. I don't want this in my expensive radiator or engine!

Distilled water is easy to find and not expensive. I'd just be careful that you buy, particularly if you are trying to dilute antifreeze, "steam distilled water" as opposed to some that are mechanically "distilled" by reverse osmosis, or deionized water. I've seen both available commonly, along with spring water in the water aisles of major stores. RO and deionized water have been shown to be a bit corrosive, kind of what we are trying to prevent here, yes?

[ja17]

Some  say tap water is OK to use, however as implied, the PH of  tap water varies widely. So unless you know the PH of your tap water, go with distilled.

[wwheeler]

Extremely interesting JP! Thanks for posting.

Interesting that MB called the old stuff G-05 which is the same name that Zerex has for theirs. And Zerex is yellowy green just as the discription of the old MB fluid. No, I am not going to use the new antifreeze in my old cars. Too much funky chemistry for me. Back to Zerex G-05.

The letter says that the new fluid will be provided by Valvoline and guess what? Valvoline owns the Zerex brand. Interesting again.

Using distilled water is a no brainer for me. Cheap, easy to find and takes the whole soft/hard water issue out of the equation. And you only use a gallon or so. That is my opinion anyway.

[JPMOSE]

I'm STILL searching for the post that mentioned an MB Antifreeze for the classic cars.  I remember reading it too!  It was probably discontinued as well....but I'm determined to find the post and call RBM of Atlanta (a dealer that fully supports getting parts for the classic models)!

[mdsalemi]

Interesting that MB called the old stuff G-05 which is the same name that Zerex has for theirs

G-05 is a "market designator" as opposed to proprietary brand name, used to describe automotive coolants made with "Hybrid Organic Acid Technology", or HOAT. That's why there are several manufacturers using the name G05. Same basic technology, different formulations and additives...

[JPMOSE]

OK guys....let's assume the only MB Antifreeze available is the new blue formula.  Would you use MB Blue or Zerex G05 in your next antifreeze change?     I have to change my antifreeze on my cars real soon and I'm torn!!! 

[ja17]

Looks like they could both be options at this point.  The most important thing is to change it every two or three years. You can check the PH level of your anti-freeze with swimming pool test strips. It might be interesting to see how both brands hold up.

[hrwilson]

Thanks to all for info. I'm sure problem was caused by 1) wrong anti-freeze and 2) leaving it in too long. From forum it seems to me that Zerex G05 might be a safe way to go. I found a data sheet here http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/zerex_g05.pdf which says it is approved by Mercedes and shows test results for different metals. It's available on Amazon. Thanks again!

Correction: the G05 coolant available in the UK on Amazon and Ebay is from Comma http://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/products/subcategory/13. All the 'good' coolants seem to use BASF's Glysantin and meet MB 325.0 requirements as far as I can see. However G05 seems primarily designed for trucks etc and otherGlysantin specs such as G48 also meet spec.

[vande17941]

The antifreeze in the 2010 ML has an extremely long change interval because the vehicle contains a silicate packet which slowly dissolves inside its cooling system that automatically replenses lost additives, as described by MB, for whoever wanted to know why the new intervals are so extended

[wwheeler]

Interesting. So is the packet in the cooling system or the coolant? If in the cooling system, then the coolant would need changing normally WITHOUT the packet?

Then I guess after the 150K miles or so, the packet must be changed? Or does the whole car get scrapped because the packet costs more than the car is worth?

[66andBlue]

.... Or does the whole car get scrapped because the old technicians are gone and the young ones only know how to change chips and computer parts?? 

[Iconic]

In 2011 I got this number from the MB Classic Center: Q-1-03-0002 coolant
I didn't see that anyone had posted that in this thread yet.
From memory, I don't think it was blue, but it was 4 years ago ..... uh ohh, too long. I'll have to check my records.
I thought it was red, but I certainly could be wrong.

[WRe]

Hi,
see  https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/325.0_de.html for alternatives to MB anti-freeze-coolant.
I use Ravenol Alu(minium) coolant together with rain water (recommendation of a German classic car magazine, if it's not to acidly).
...WRe

[labella]

I use Evans waterless coolant in all my restored cars.we do a flush 1st then fill with Evans.the main reason is to raise the boiling point .

[Mike K]

I sent an email to BASF asking which anti-freeze they recommend, their reply is below:

Dear Mike,
Thank you for your question regarding Glysantin®
Our recommendation for your 1971 Mercedes is our Glysantin® Classic

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With kind regards
Ihr Glysantin® Team / Your Glysantin® Team
BASF - The Chemical Company

I always figured they were going to be pre-disposed to selling me the "Classic" version- http://www.glysantin.de/en/products/classic.html
Irrespective, I purchased the Glysantin G48 concentrate (this seems the closest to the MB coolant, possibly the same product?), which I diluted 60% concentrate to 40% distilled water.
http://www.glysantin.de/en/products/g48.html

It also comes in a G48 ready-mix solution- http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B002UXQZRC?redirect=true&ref_=s9_simh_gw_p263_d0_i2
Any thoughts or input?

Best,
Mike

[Benz Dr.]

There are so many things that are Classic today, including almost every old post war car that really isn't, I walk away as soon as I hear the word.

 It's all about marketing things with words like green, organic, gluten free, all natural, and Classic, which are catchy ideas that often times have nothing to do with the product or reality.