waiting for 66 and blue's new top (Alfred)

[rmmchl]

I submitted a theory to Alfred, and in the next couple of months I might have my answer.

At the PUB I took over 12 pictures of convertible tops that all had the same  "exact" wear areas, holes, and curled bottoms. I remember the original convertible top on my 67 250sl. It was cream in color. I had it replaced in 1986.  It looked like it was made of the type of material that military duffle bags are now made of.

It seemed much thinner than what we are purchasing from GAHH and the other suppliers. It fit into my compartment easily. It was plenty big and fit well. The soft top and frame lifted and unfolded very easily. Now I have all the problems everyone else has.

It is my theory that these tops  everyone's making are not correct.  To achieve what these top suppliers feel  (and probably are)   superior tops,  I think they are adding that rolled stitched bottom, and using thicker material. They  use the same material on a lot of different imports. They are using very good materials, but this is too thick for our cars around the edges. The material is too good.

They are trying to eliminate leaking and soaked tops. That is why I feel the tops are hard to fold into our compartments.  All of this rubbing , curling and holes are not normal. Alfred found some original material in Germany and is having them make him a top out of it. I may get an answer to my theory.

Another way to prove my theory would be to get permission from Elvis Pressley's estate, and look at Priscilla's 230sl on display in Memphis at Graceland. Probably the most correct Pagoda in the world. It would have the original canvas. I hope this opens some discussions on this topic. I have proof with the PUB pictures that something is not correct.

As far as the correct installation, my upholstery guy tells me the pagoda is one of the easiest of all  tops to install. Most of it is glued. I trust my top guy . He has done hundreds of tops over the last 40 years. I think the problem lies in the material and stitching not being original to our cars.

[Garry]

Hi Michael,

I think you are right as I noticed that one of the cars at PUB had the original soft top and it definitely appeared to be of thinner material and thus would make the folding easier into the compartment.

One who would know the answer is John "49er" who is the original owner and can compare his known original top with another replacement one and confirm that the thickness had indeed been made heaver is the interest of "improving the top.

John,  any comment?

[rmmchl]

Garry, I hope these discussions could  lead to a top being made that actually fits our cars like the originals. Remember that I requested that maybe you could include a few pictures showing the left to right hand drive conversion of the jag XKE when completed. Be careful, Tom Collit might covert it to a Pagoda-ha ha

[al_lieffring]

When I installed the new top on my 66 230 about 4 years ago I intentionally ordered the Haartz top without the herring bone liner because it is thinner and folds more easily than the "German Cloth" material.

[Benz Dr.]

I'm not sure if the original tops had this, because I don't think I've seen one, but the replacement tops also contain a rubber membrane sandwiched between the outer cover and the herring bone liner. Aside from any decorative features, I imagine the liner is there to cover the water proof membrane. This membrane is what makes the top water proof and also what makes them shrink.
Any wrinkles are from the menmbrane and any holes are from frictional wear every time you open or close the top. There's also the problem of material getting caught in the folding parts which will also cause holes to form as the top is lowered or raised. Thicker material would only make this worse.

It's one of the main reasons I never lower my soft top. 

[66andBlue]

When I installed the new top on my 66 230 about 4 years ago I intentionally ordered the Haartz top without the herring bone liner because it is thinner and folds more easily than the "German Cloth" material.

Hi Al,
That is very interesting. How were you able to buy a Sonnenland canvas without the liner?
As Dan pointed out correctly the "original" Sonnenland material is a three-ply canvas in which a rubber "membrane" is embedded between the "herring bone" (or more correctly "dobby weave") lining and the top fabric and cannot be separated.  Did you buy a different product from Haartz?

I wanted a "Firenze gray" canvas since it was the closest available to the original gray/white canvas on my 230SL but it was only available with a black (not tan) liner. Through a connection in Germany I found out that the original manufacturer - Rode & Schwalenberg in Mannheim, Germany - had a few yards left of the gray/tan fabric. Since Haartz had bought up R&S I contacted Mr. Eric Haartz and after some friendly discussions he agreed to sell me enough for a top. The material was shipped to GAHH who made the top that is now waiting to be installed.
What I noticed was that this old cloth material was a bit softer than the sample of the newer gray/black that I had obtained from GAHH earlier.  Contacting Mr. Haartz again about this difference he pointed out to me that the company now uses a slightly thicker rubber membrane to make the material more durable. The details of the old and current fabric are explained here:
http://www.haartz.com/en/consumer_info/components/details_of_components.asp  and here:
http://www.haartz.com/en/products/convertible_toppings/cloth/cloth_convertible_topping.asp

It is my theory that these tops  everyone's making are not correct.  To achieve what these top suppliers feel  (and probably are)   superior tops,  I think they are adding that rolled stitched bottom, and using thicker material. They  use the same material on a lot of different imports. They are using very good materials, but this is too thick for our cars around the edges.

Hi Michael,
the difference in thickness and the somewhat less pliable characteristics are not necessarily the reasons why we have trouble with these newer tops. In my view this is mainly caused by (1) a stitched rim that is too thick and therefore too stiff as you pointed out, and (2) the canvas being too long, that is, it folds onto the chassis rather than pressing on it without flattening out. Some top manufacturers went that way thinking that less water might enter underneath. I believe that the GAHH top has shorter side walls and thus should be less prone to rubbing the rubber seal on top of the compartment when folded and lowered.  At least that is my hope. I 'll provide photos once it is installed.

[Iconic]

Hi Michael,

I think you are right as I noticed that one of the cars at PUB had the original soft top and it definitely appeared to be of thinner material and thus would make the folding easier into the compartment.

One who would know the answer is John "49er" who is the original owner and can compare his known original top with another replacement one and confirm that the thickness had indeed been made heaver is the interest of "improving the top.

John,  any comment?

Garry,
I remember someone feeling my top at PUB and commenting on it's thinness. Maybe that was you.
My top is original (So far all indicators are that it is original.).
If there is anything I can check out for you guys, just ask.

[tel76]

I have just fitted a new soft top to my project,the old one was origional and in very bad condition.
I have just measured the two materials and have come up with the following,
  1 - The origional top is 1.11mm thick.
  2 - The new one is 0.95mm thick.
I do not know the name of the new ones manufacture as the new top came with the car.
If anyone wants a sample of either please let me know before i dispose of the origional material.

[hauser]

I do not know the name of the new ones manufacture as the new top came with the car.


If you take a look at the one of the bottom corners of the plastic window there might be some indication as to the manufacturer of your top.

[tel76]

I am not concerned about who made/sewn the top as i am very happy with the workmanship,my reason for saying i did not know who manufactured it was to pre-empt the question that someone would ask the question,  who made it?

[rmmchl]

tel 76---how did the thickness at the bottom seams  and thickness of the rolled seam compare to the newer tops?

[jaymanek]

It does make a lot of sense and a very good observation.
 
Manufacturers of hoods would not keep a thinner material in stock just for the W113. They would simply use the same thickness as later cars such as the R107.

[tel76]

All the stitching in the new s/t is in the same position as the old,the only difference is the beading that goes around the bottom edge ( the material that contacts the body) on the old material it is a larger cross section,therefore it is stronger and would resist the lifting at the edges that owners complain about.

[rmmchl]

I know for a fact that my original top was much thinner than those they are making now-Like I mentioned before, it looked like dufflebag material----------------and fit perfectly.

[66andBlue]

Michael,
I have seen several 230SL original soft tops and also several old soft top fabric samples but none of them ever looked like a dufflebag material. They were all much stiffer. The last two weeks I have visited a few upholstery shops and looked at old sample books and measured the thickness of the old (pre Haartz) and new Sonnenland fabrics and they were all between 0.84 mm and 1.09 mm.
I wonder whether your "dufflebag" top was really made from the original Sonnenland material as sold by Rode & Schwalenberg. All samples that I could find - old and new - did vary in flexibility and I believe that this is determined by the rubberization process.
The current GAHH tops have a narrower stitching pattern at the bottom (see photo with red double-headed arrows) which should help preventing too much rubbing on the the compartment edge or the hinge. What I also hope is that the bead is made from a different, more flexible core to prevent the early cracking when folded.

Dan,
what you call a rubber "membrane" is not really a separate membrane sheet but more a layer of rubber that was perhaps sprayed or pressed on before a vulcanization process.  Take a look at the attached photo and tell me what you think about this membrane.

[66andBlue]

Here are a few more photos of the new top.

[thelews]

Harbor Freight digital calipers?

[rmmchl]

alfred-thank you for the photos-the top looks great---Does it seem thinner than the other aftermarkets. Maybe it was the rolled stiching that seems thicker. This is what I have been waiting for . Can you explain the fit of your new top to us? Does it fold into the compartment easier?--Does the lid shut good, leaving a good seal around the soft top lid and the car body?-In a nutshell, is it better than the tops the rest of us have on our cars?