Restoration Difficulty Level

[andyburns]

The chrome platers finally finished up with the seat parts so I went and picked them up today.  All the nuts and bolts have also been zinc and gold plated so I can get into the final rebuild of the seats.  Probably wait till next week and try and continue on the under body.  

[jameshoward]

Andy,

Great diff pics. Having had a look, I personally wouldn't bother stripping it. I say this because, first, it looks good enough, and second, you'll probably find - as I did - that even old rubber on these is actually fit for purpose. If you strip the diff there's a chance - albeit a small one - that you may not get the proper torque on the bearings when you put it back together. If it all seems sound and the diff carrier arm is tight with no play, I think it’s enough to replace a few easy bushes, etc and put it back in. Of course, if there’s play and it doesn’t feel tight, you’ll want to strip it. So for me, it's a no brainer: don't do it unless you HAVE to, rather than just WANT to.

I would add the following comments based on your pictures:

Diff resto 23: This bush is very hard anyone, but it’s easy and cheap to replace. Replace.

Pic 22 and 19 – this is the only area I’m slightly unsure about, as I can’t really see what the photos are showing. The rubber ‘donuts’ sit over the bronze bushes, presumably to keep the grease in and grime out. You’ll need to get that area a really good clean and put fresh grease in.

Pic 20: These trailing arm bushes look pretty tired and I would replace them. The bolts can be a bugger to undo, and you may need to replace them, also. MB does a kit with all the parts. Read the thread I posted that’s below here some way about how to put these back. Don’t use any lubricant or slip (talc is OK) because they shift a little too easily once the weight it back on. You want them looking like they do now. The circlips aren’t that hard to get back on. I’ve posted a picture showing a method in the thread below which uses a vice and a few bolts. Piece of cake.

You should also replace the large rubber donuts at the front of the trailing arms in Pic 25. Note that the arms are ‘sided’ – ie different for left and right.

James

[andyburns]

Thanks James,  that is really good sensible advice which I think I will probably follow to the tee.  I am going to start pricing and sourcing all the new rubber this week.   Spent most of today under the car again prepping the underside for epoxy sealing.  Quite a job.  Wish I had bead blasted the entire car right about now. 

[Tomnistuff]

You should also replace the large rubber donuts at the front of the trailing arms in Pic 25. Note that the arms are ‘sided’ – ie different for left and right.

James

Andy, you probably know this, but in addition to the arms being "sided", the rubber donuts are to be installed in a "non-obvious" direction.  There is a taper on the floor "cone" and a taper in the rubber donuts.  Don't be tempted to install them so the taper on the donut matches the taper on the "cone".  If you do that, then the donut will be upside down, even though it is easier to install that way.  There is a special tapered "donut" GUIDE that screws onto the "cone".  It's used for installing the arm and donut on the "cone".  The tapered guide flares open the small end of the tapered hole in the donut so it will install over the "cone".

I didn't have a GUIDE, but after installing the donut into the arm with the small end of the tapered hole "up" (in car position), I pressed progressively larger lubricated sockets into the donut, each larger socket pressing the smaller one out the other side, until the donut hole was large enough, with a big socket in it, to be bigger than the "cone" on the body.  I then jacked the arm and donut onto the lubricated "cone".  The cone pressed the socket back out the bottom as the donut was jacked onto the "cone".

On one side of the donut is the word "UNTEN" which means bottom.  It should be facing the ground, which makes the small end of the tapered hole point up toward the "cone" on the body.

There is the following thread that discusses the donut installation:  http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19385.0

Good luck.

Tom Kizer
 

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, just like to backup what James is saying particularly about Pic20.  Buy  the kits as he suggests, including the shafts. If James has an easy  way to get them back together go for it. Regards Tommistuff comments, the rubbers on the other end of the trailing arms are a bugger to get back on.  I did it but wished I had made the big tapered nose guide afterwards.  Could machine one up quite easily if you want to wait until I get back.  I have a picture of what the official MB one looks like. If someone can tell me what  the largest diameter of the guide should be I will get a pice of aluminium shaft (quite cheap) while I am in Sydney. Really good metal supplier close to where I am staying here.

[andyburns]

Hey Rodger,  thanks for the offer.  To be honest I feel kind of ill at the moment and am having huge regrets taking the diff apart.  The further into it I get the more I realize I am totally under qualified to be doing this.  I stripped the brakes and all the external hoses etc this afternoon but am a bit stuck on how to get the brake backing disks off.  It looks as if you have to take the entire half shaft out.  At this point I should probably spend a good couple of hours reading the BBB.  I have a huge mounting pile of parts to restore and feel as if I am now playing some twisted game of snakes and ladders and I have just slipped on the longest snake on the board.  I doubt very much if I will have even touched the diff for the next couple of weeks as I am back working on another short term contract for the next month or so.  Really wish I could just wake up on Monday morning and dedicate my time to this for the next couple of months but have the family to feed and cloth.  Will do my best to push on the diff project each day.

Another question for you all, how do you determine if the main swing arm pin bushes are shot.   I can feel a little bit of lateral play.  I have been reading James and others posts on getting the central pin out and didn't really like what I was reading.  It sounds as if the rear diff assembly is one of the hardest most technical parts of the car to work on requiring all sorts of special tools to accomplish tasks.

In any event I really appreciate all your help and advice.  Just need a huge boost of confidence and enthusiasm and I am sure I will be off laughing again.

[rutger kohler]

Hi Andy, how about leaving the diff and getting on with the seats etc.  i will be back Wednesday week if that helps.  With regard to telling how much the back trailing arm bushes are worn, I changed mine as a matter of course whilst I was doing the rest of the suspension rubbers etc. The flanges you cuold see on the rubber bushes looked ok  but the rest of the bush was another story when i got it out. can you not check back with the last owner?

Just remember I did mine with the diff in place  so changing the parts should be a lot easier on yours.  Would be amazed and alarmed if you had to take the axles out to remove brake back plates but i cleaned mine up in place and spray pianted them there, was happy with result.  As James says don't open any of the pre-loaded bearings up a such as the diff or axles if it is running right.

cheers

Rodger

[mbzse]

.../...how do you determine if the main swing arm pin bushes are shot.../...

You hold the left rear axe half (housing) firm, and then you push hard to wiggle the right axle half (grab it out by the end) in the car's longitudinal direction.
There should of course be no play whatsoever in by the center pivot pin and its bushings. It is useful to have a helper to hold the left axle half firm while wiggling.
Note: if you do this while the axle is still attached to the car, the right trailing arm must be disconnected

As an aside, I change all rubber parts in the chassis by default on the cars that I own or manage. This is because the rubber now is some 45 years old, and comes out deformed and hardened. The results in driving comfort are noticeable. Alignment of chassis and wheels is performed in the same go
/Hans in Sweden

[andyburns]

Hi Hans, thanks mate.  Pretty much well confirmed what I thought.  I can detect and observe the lateral movement of the pin so guess I am in for stripping all this down as well.  Have been reading accounts of all the difficulties getting the bushes apart and how people have damaged the pin and had to use dry ice or heat to budge the bushes.  Just feel a little overwhelmed as I am not an engineer and when things start to get technical I feel as if I am struggling to keep my chin above the water line.  Guess I need to just take a deep breath and take things as they come.  Probably not as bad as my mind is currently making it out to be!

Thanks again for advice.

[andyburns]

Rodger,  would dearly love your help if I run into problems.  I will be going back onto the interior this week as a matter of fact.  Also have all the under body prep and painting to do so not as if I cant find anything else to work on.

Just make sure you have a nice holiday and dont start thinking about my unfortunate problems 

[jameshoward]

From memory, the backing plates are held in place by threaded studs with a cut out on the head that allows them to be tapped into the axle tubes from the rear. You need to remove the studs to remove the plates. By the time you get to the point where you tap the studs back to remove them, you'll have everything out. Removing the stub axles is not hard. (It's easier when the axle is on the car and reduces the weight you have to move around, not that this helps, Andy. The stub axles weigh a ton and it'll be easier putting the axle back on the car without them, I think you'll find).

Joe A has demonstrated how easiest to remove the stub axles. There's a ton of info in this post, which you should read: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4487.0
Whilst I know a few have struggled to get the axles out, I think most don't. I've used the piece of metal trick a number of times, and whilst it does occasionally take a good bit of hammering, they've always come out in the end.

Don't sweat pulling the diff apart. I appreciate it's going to be an unwanted additional task, but having done it on my own from scratch using only the info on the site, which is now considerably more detailed given recent efforts, it's not that bad at all. There is talk of dry ice and heating and cooling, but I never had to do any of that. I used a kettle of boiling water to heat a part, and a torch at one point but no need for anything more dramatic. Just make sure you index the crush sleeve unless you're going to be changing bearings, etc in which case you'll need to go through a pretty laboured process that I was spared. You may not be an engineer, but you know a ton more about this sort of thing than I do, and I managed it - eventually. So if I can do it...

I think you'll be fine, plus you have the added advantage of folk who've recently done the job who can perhaps assist.

[andyburns]

Another day another Mission

In reflection one really fun thing about this journey I am on is the constant stream of parcels that turn up from all over the world.  Its not just me either. The kids have taken incredible joy in running down to the box to get the next installment.  They often argue over 'whose turn it is'.  Wonderful.

Track and trace aids this playful pastime and I can usually predict down to a ten minute window when the bit are going to arrive.  This morning was no exception with the new D class amp turning up from the state which will provide a bit of omph to my stealth audio system.

I am itching to wire it all up this morning and am going in to buy some really heavy gauge power cable and a 110amp fuse holder. 

The unit itself is beautifully made and fits perfectly under the seat between the rails.  I took quite a few measurements before I ordered it to make sure all my clearances were ok.  Will secure it to the carpet with velcro to stop it sliding around.  I think I will get out the industrial needle and thread and gently stitch one half of the velcro to the carpet so that no damage is done and it can be reversed with no trace if need be.

 To complete the system all I need now is a dedicated parametric equalizer and some sort of tactile volume control between the bluetooth output and the input of the amp.  I plan to mount this up in the center console imitating the factory knob you sometime see in this location.  I think its for the rear heated window???

 Think I will use a JL audio product for the job.  Cheap as chips and quite high quality.  http://www.crutchfield.com/S-v6vhBbgZu8y/p_136CLRLC/JL-Audio-CL-RLC.html

[jameshoward]

Hi Andy,

Could you post the link for the amp? This could be what I'm after. I'd be interested to know what speakers you're going to use and whether you're going to add a dedicated bass speaker. I put an amp in the same place years ago and it's been fine, but despite having done research, I think the speakers don't work well in a convertible. I think my amp is 2 channel but I think I need to add a dedicated bass speaker. I believe that a 2 channel amp will not allow me to do this, although I know zero about this sort of thing.

This is my little amp and where I put it

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7823.0

James

[andyburns]

Wired up the new audio system this afternoon.  Purchased high quality 8 gauge power and earth cable and some good quality interconnects for all the components.

Also wired a cheeky 4p4t switch to channel the output of the bluetooth receiver between the original becker aux input and the new Infinity Amp.  I can now flick the switch and here the difference between about 2w rms 50 year old amp driving a single pretty shabby speaker and a modern 250w rms per channel amp running some pretty impressive speakers.  The difference is quite astonishing.

I have ordered my active level controller and a new 'reasonable quality' parametric equalizer.  I need the latter as to get the best out of the amp and speakers.  The kappa perfects are notorious for having very very bright tweeter.  These can be totally tamed with the addition of this piece of kit.

The system even without this addition is actually really impressive.   The kappa perfects pump out very very impressive bass and are capable of moving a massive amount of air.  So much so that I immediately had issues with panel resonance.  I got this under control by demounting the speakers, again, and lining the steel cavity they sit in with fat mat.  Made a massive difference and cleaned up the bass no end.  Much more punch now.

I did buy the kapa amp with a view to using half its capabilities to drive a compact sub under the driver seat.  I now no longer think I will need it with the main 6.5 inch kappa drivers pumping out so much low end.

James the speakers I used are as follows.  Awesome price for the quality.  The cheapest I could get these in New Zealand was 600nzd.  I ended up getting a brand new set off ebay delivered for 250.  You guys have it really easy over in the states.  The amp was about the same price.

http://eu.infinitysystems.com/infinity-product-detail-eu/kappa-four.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Db-Drive-E7Eq7-Okur-Series-7-Band-Parametric-Equalizer-/301162163234?pt=US_Signal_Processors&hash=item461ea9ec22

[jameshoward]

Brilliant, Andy, thanks.

Are you just using 2 footwell speakers with tweeters? I may end up taking my car to a specialist to see what they recommend. If there's a way to run a separate bass speaker from a 2 channel amp, which I doubt, I'd like to hear how that sounds. I suspect my little amp hasn't got the guts to do that, however.

And I'm from the UK, not the States!!! (Although we have it pretty easy when it comes to getting bits, also, it's probably cheaper in the US). Just had to make that point. I feel better now.

[andyburns]

James,  the kappa 4 is a 4 channel amp.  Divided into two.  So you can use half the amp to power 2 speakers and the other half to drive your sub or two other speakers.  It has a built in high pass or low pass filter so is extremely flexible in how you can configure it.   It sounds just what you need.   All I am using is the foot well 6.5 inch speakers, a set of cross overs and the associated tweeters which I have hidden in the vents.  I selected these as they have a massive magnet and a very rigid cone designed to move as much air as possible at high pressure levels.  They are specifically designed to compete with a with a sub woofer in a confined cabin. 

[andyburns]

I got the seat pads back from the auto trim guy last night and have set about putting everything back together this morning.  Really exciting stuff for me to get these back together.  

I had issues with the gold plating on all the large fixing bolt causing interference issue so had a bit of extra time sanding and treating bare metal.  But in the end everything slipped back together nicely.

I still haven't bolted on the seat rails and have just propped the seats up to see what its all going to look like.  Couldn't resist.

Love them to bits.  They look wonderful and have really perked up my restoration spirits after the disappointment of being lumped with the additional headache of the diff.

Just need to find one of the small plastic knobs that go on the end of the chrome arm for reclining and also get my seat rails zinc coated again and the seat will be done.  What a journey.  I have done a quick sum and think that a set of fully restored seats, after you have paid for the second hand seats and then fitted new pads, leather covers and labor to fit them and the chrome plating,  I dont think you would have much change from 5k US.  Very very expensive pieces of furniture

 

[andyburns]

Took this short video of the play in my main diff swing arm bush.  I would appreciate if someone with good knowledge can take a look and let me know what I already suspect.

I think it has far too much play!  Probably why the rubber seals seam to be shot.

I really need to make a play on this diff and get things moving along.  Am feeling itchy all over each time I see it in the drive 

[DaveB]

I just checked a 250S rear end I have here and it has no fore and aft play at all so I think you're right, that bushing needs to be replaced.
Could you post a video/audio of your radio operating, when it's all done?

[andyburns]

Thanks Dave,  appreciate your efforts.  I wasn't what I wanted to here but isn't unexpected!

If I make a video of the audio system what do you want to see the old original one or the new.  With the new there is nothing to see as everything is hidden and you wont get a feel for either the quality or volume through a video.  I probably will just put one up demonstrating how I can switch the audio source between the factory and modern amps.  No doubt when the time comes and all the rest of the gear turns up I will try and document the last bit of the installation. Probably another month off yet.

[tel76]

The bushing in the video is completely knackered, you will have to replace it and while you are at it remove the long shaft and replace the steel bushes, you will find (with a bit of luck) that the phosphor bronze bushes will be serviceable.
It is not very difficult to do, after the road you have gone down you owe it to the car  ! Engine next ! ?

[andyburns]

Thanks Eric.  I will have a crack then!  Not quite sure how to start this.  Is it just a case of following my nose or is there some ridiculous sequence of steps you have to go through to ensure no damage is done.  I can imagine that the parts to repair this are going to be expensive and that there is some nasty bronze bush that has to be pressed out.   Is there any good threads in here with photos of all the steps?

[andyburns]

Anyone got a parts list and estimated cost for refurbishing the entire rear end?

Am picking I need the following.  Let me know what you guys think.

Pinion Seal $14
Differential "Clunk" Bushing $295
Trailing Arm Repair Kit $162 X 2 = $334
Trailing Arm Rubber Donut $15 X 2 = $30
Trailing Arm Rubber Retainer 47 X 2 = $94

Total $767

[mbzse]

Andy,
I do not see the rubber parts for the side support (Panhard rod)
The large, tubular diff bushing is about €90 for instance from dbdepot.de or SLS. But perhaps duty, tax etc makes your price higher.
The large rubber mount, accessible in the trunk, is best bought from Albert Gerold: >albertgerold@hotmail.com<
The M-B part has too soft rubber in it, also much more expensive.

/Hans in Sweden

[andyburns]

Hi Hans, I am sure my side support rubber is all ok.  Seemed as if they had replaced that.  I will give it a good clean and cross my fingers.