123 Distributor

[bpossel]

Naj, Cees, Andy, and others who have installed the "123"...

Which model of "123" did you purchase for our cars? The "123\Mercedes-6-R-V" or "123\Mercedes-6-R-V-IE"

http://123ignition.nl/id/25.html

Also, how is this unit setup?  Direct wire without any ballast resistors?  Which coil?  I guess just the standard coil, wires, etc...?

I think I may box up my Bosch 009 w/Pertronx and go with the "123" if I can understand how to correctly install it.

Thanks!!!
Bob 
 

[Peter van Es]

Searching for that search term would lead you to this thread: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8816.0 where that exact same question was asked.

You need the R-V model, not the one ending in IE. Most people get a new coil, and if it's over 1 Ohm, do away with the ballast resistors. Most people use original spark plug wires, unless really old.

Peter

[bpossel]

Thanks Peter!

Seems like a pretty easy install  !   Looks like it just "drops in" on the 280sl's and a bit more effort on the earlier 113s.

Thank you!
Bob 

[wwheeler]

Bob,

I installed a 123 (R-V as Peter said) and it is very simple to do. The installation seems strange from the instructions but actually is straight forward. 

You need to use the new coil and have to by pass the ballast resistor for the full 12volts. Most people recommend keeping your old distributor handy to use if the 123 module goes out. Unlike the mechanical distributor, the electronic 123 will give you no notice of failure. 

I wired mine with connectors so it would be easy to swap back to the old distributor if desired. I don't think the 123 is really a big distraction from the original except for the absence of the vacuum diaphragm. I liked the thought of originality with the 051, but got tired of adjusting points. I'd rather spend my time on one of the other complex components on these wonderful machines.

[Naj ✝︎]

Has anybody with a late US spec 70/71 model fitted one of these 

naj

[bpossel]

Hello Wallace,

Thank you for your reply and comments.  I wont miss the vacuum cell.  It always seemd in the way when I was adjusting and setting the timing anyway.  I ordered the 123 yesterday and hope to have it by mid Jan.  I'll report back.

Cees, as I read the posts on the 123, there was one that mentions your setup using more gas?  Did you determine what was causing this?  How is your 113 operating on the 123 now?

Thanks,
Bob  

[Peter van Es]

Has anybody with a late US spec 70/71 model fitted one of these 

naj

Naj,

I have a fairly late US model with a 123. However, all the US fuel emissions tinkering stuff has been removed. Mine works fine. I had high fuel consumption but it had nothing to do with the 123 but a problem with my ignition injection (since corrected) which meant that my engine was set to run very rich. I don't know if Cees had such issues too but he's now off to his vacation home in France -- with slow internet -- so he may not answer you soon!

Peter

[bpossel]

Hi Peter,

With using the 123 with your US emission stuff removed, do you have the 123 vacuum line running direct to the ventura?
What is your timing set at?

Thanks Peter!
Bob 

[Peter van Es]

Bob,

I had my garage (van Dijk) do the installation, so I'll have a look tomorrow and let you know.

Peter

[Martijn]

Bob,

Last summer I have replaced the distributer by a 123ignition myself. Although it was a huge improvement, there were some other issues with my engine, especially the linkage. A month ago I brought my car to Van Dijk and they have done some serious work on it. Their mechanic noticed that a special spring was missing underneath the 123ignition. Because of that there was some play in the rotor and therefore the engine wasn't running as smoothly as it could. The standard 123ignition kit comes with a short spring, but Van Dijk told me that the Pagoda needs an extended spring. They have contacted the manufacturer about it, but so far 123ignition only supplies a short spring.

I don't know the type number or dimensions of this spring, but if you contact Frank van Dijk at vandijk@classicsl.com, I am sure they would be happy to give you more information. They have these springs in stock.

Martijn

[bpossel]

Hello All !

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but... 
Was there a different version of the USA and Euro 009/010 (051)?
Didnt the USA version of the 113 have all of the pollution control stuff (crap) and the Euro version not have this?
So how the USA and Euro versions handle vacuum advance/retard are different?
If this is what I think, I wonder how the "123 distributor" replacement is designed to work?  My guess Euro version?
So the "123" would be connected directly to the ventura vs routing through the 2-way valve and being switched on and off at ~1200 rpms?

Thank you!
Bob 

[jameshoward]

Bob,

I'd always assumed that the 123 wouldn't need to be conntected to the vacuum line because it's electronic. But I've never seen one or really thought much about it. I know that one of the UK disitributors (no pun intended) is about 4 miles from me and I've been thinking about driving round to take a look at them and see what difference a 123 might make. I assumed that with all the electronic gubbins that anything that was used by the 051 wouldn't be needed. I'll follow this thread with interest.

James

[Naj ✝︎]

Hello, James,

The 123 distributor has 6 or 8  16 different curves to choose from. There is a vacuum port and you can choose vac advance (e.g. early 230s) or vac retard (rest of 113s).

Bob,

The 051 and 009 distributors are the same for the US and rest of the world.

My take is that 051s were originally used in production and the 009 is a later supersession to replace worn out 051s.
I also believe 051s were used until end of production  (worldwide) except in the US cars which used 062 and 067 during 1970/71. The 010 supercedes both 062 and 067.

If anybody here knows any different, please tell 

naj

[bpossel]

Hello Martijn,

Just to clarify...  your kit was missing the spring completely?  Your kit didnt even come with the standard short spring?

Just trying to understand what I need to have my USA distributor ask Albert of Albertronics so that I get the correct spring for my 1971 280SL.

Thank you!
Bob 

[wwheeler]

I purchased my 123 from Brooklyn Motoren Worke in Wisconsin. I believe his name was Albert and was very knowledgeable.

According to the instruction sheet provided, there are 16 different advance curves available (1-9 & A-F). I attached the vacuum for my installation (retard) and my curve # is 8. When checking the timing, the number 8 curve duplicated my 051 exactly for a '68 280 SE. The people you purchase the distributor from should be able to give the correct info and if not, contact Albert.
 

[Peter van Es]

On my car, with the emissions control stuff largely removed, the vacuum line is connected to the air intake housing on the OTHER side... i.e. not on the Venturi. The venturi tube is sealed off with some sort of screw.

I'm uploading the 123-Ignitions manual for the correct 123 ignition for your usage.

You can find out more at: http://www.123ignition.nl/

Peter

[Martijn]

Hello Bob,

The mechanic explained to me that the original kit comes with a short spring, but it should be replaced by an extended spring. It is built in the 123ignition, I think. It is not a loose part in the kit. The mechanic only showed me the extended spring. If I remember it correctly, the length is about 1 to 1.5 inch and the diameter about 0.5 inch.

Probably you know that the manufacturer of the 123ignition is a Dutch company. That is why Van Dijk cooperated with 123ignition in the development for the Pagoda version. Van Dijk doesn't understand why 123ignition doesn't supply the kit with this long spring. If you order a 123ignition at Van Dijk's, they switch these springs as a standard procedure. Most people don't know this.

I understand that Peter also has ordered his 123ignition at Van Dijk's. Therefore he probably doesn't know this, because they did the switch for him. I bought it somewhere else, that is the reason why the mechanic noticed this play.

Please contact Van Dijk about this. They are very kind and helpful people.

Martijn

[Peter van Es]

Dear all,

I spoke with Frank van Dijk this morning. Please do NOT contact him about this if you only want to know about this spring. All the information is in this post.

Underneath every distributor is a spring. I've scanned a picture from the Haynes manual and uploaded it here. On Page 95 (Chapter 4, Ignition System), picture 6.11B it shows how to install this spring in the housing into which the distributor subsequently gets installed. On the SLS site, there is a picture too (but no order number) on page 05 (Steuerung, Kette), between part 57 and 58 (see second attachment).

The standard MB spring is about 2.2 cm tall, and about 0.5 cm diameter. Everyone who installs or deals with distributors knows about this spring, and it can be bought from MB and others.

The spring that allows the 123-ignition to work correctly is the same diameter as the original part, but about 4.3 cm tall.

Van Dijk does NOT have a large stock of these springs. They picked a couple of handfuls of them up at a hardware supplier out of a bin. When they run out, they run out. Your best bet in acquiring this spring is to:

• ask the person who supplied your 123-ignition for something like that spring... although, as Martijn said, you don't get it with your 123-ignition
• take your existing spring, go to your local hardware store, and try and find a similar one that is twice as tall

As you can understand, much as Frank van Dijk likes to support all of us, it is a loss making proposition to supply these springs (they are in his catalog on p 13, item number 208-084, "veer onder ontsteking", spring under ignition, at €15) piecemeal. The handling and shipping of these items would kill him. So please try and source it locally first, and then place a large compensation order at the same time as ordering your spring... then he'll forgive you I'm sure 

Peter

[Martijn]

Peter,

Sorry. It was not my intention to cause a lot of work for Van Dijk with this small part. I am glad that you could give this detailed explanation and I am sure it's valuable for many members. Thank you.

Martijn

[Peter van Es]

Martijn,

Don't worry, Frank's OK. He only had a couple of e-mails so far...  I'm just trying to keep our valuable suppliers sane!

Peter

[jameshoward]

Peter,

I'm just trying to keep our valuable suppliers sane!

Hmmm. Not sure I'd agree that this is the job of the customer. Where there's a market for something, there's profit to be made. Valuable suppliers, if really good, would surely find some way to supply an essential part. Those who wouldn't go out of their way to source an essential part and charge a fair market rate would be, what, normal suppliers? There's plenty of those around.

Either you're in the business of supplying cars parts and fixing cars, or you aren't.

JH

PS - this isn't a question; it's just an observation!

[Peter van Es]

James,

Normally, or generally I would agree with you. However, with this item the reality is that many people would ask Frank questions by e-mail, and he would spend time answering them. They would find out that he can supply the part at €15 plus shipping and handling, but that the spring isn't really special: that with a bit of looking around a buyer could probably source a spring locally for much less money.

Frank van Dijk graciously provided, free of charge, all that information. I put it in a post here. I mailed him the link so that he can provide this link when people mail him with the questions. Now thats why Frank is VALUABLE... he didn't try to make a buck, he provided all the knowledge that many 123-ignition suppliers don't even have.

Now tell me, if you ordered this spring from Frank, and paid €25 for it including shipping and handling, and found out you could have sourced it locally for a couple of bucks, would you feel happier with Frank as a supplier ?

That's why I made sure -- as a service to Frank van Dijk -- that our members at least would realise what a drain on Franks time it would be if he had to go about dealing with questions and requests for just that tiny spring. Now I'm sure Frank would be very happy if you ordered the 123-ignition from him, AND the spring...

James, I hope you see my point. We have some excellent professionals on the board (Dan Caron (Dr Benz), Joe Alexander) who also share their knowledge freely. Be generous with your praise of them, and miserly with your questions to them... but do send as much business to them as you can. That's all!

Peter

PS: This isn't an answer... just my justification!

[Ziggy]

Bob, you are right. The 123 has only 1 vacuum port for retard, so your pollution control can not be connected and will not work. After installing, you will have the "euro" version of the distributor.

[bpossel]

Ziggy, did you end of getting one? Lean something new?  Please tell us more...

I have been waiting to update the group on the 123 with my setup until I get it fully installed... I just rec'd my unit on Monday of this week.  I also have finally come to the conclusion (thanks Gernold!) that the 009 in my car is wrong and that a previous owner installed it (replaced my 062) with this 009 so that the earlier Pertronix I could be utilized. 

I also learned from Gernold that the 123 will work in one of 2 ways for my later '71 280sl... 1. with all of my pollution control devices working 100%, 123 vac port connected to the 2-way valve as designed, or 2. with pollution control devices removed, 123 vac port connected directly to the throttle body and the throttle body be replaced with a "euro" spec version (I am sure there is a formal name, part #,... for this throttle body???).

I should be able to report on my 123 setup by this weekend....
Bob 

[Naj ✝︎]

Bob,
I think there is a way you can use your current throttle body, and that is to still use the vacuum control valve, but  operated by the switch on the throttle valve body. At idling, the vacuum valve would open and retard the timing. When you open the throttle, the vacuum valve relay would switch off and cut off the vacuum.

naj

[Ziggy]

Bob, I was involved in research and development of the Mercedes 123. It was never designed to include the emission control as found on US Mercedes at the time. Since such emission control devices are considered redundant on such old cars overhere, this was something you just disconnect when installing the 123, I don't think anyone expected actually someone wanting to keep that working.
So any method of keeping the emission control working with the 123 is not original or designed by the manufacturer. I don't know much either about keeping emission control properly working so I can't help you with that. When US Mercedes are imported back this is usually the first thing to be removed or disconnected.

[bpossel]

Thanks Naj & Ziggy!

Ziggy, that is sooo cool that you were involved with the R&D of the "123" and we have you with us on this forum  !

Can you further explain how I should install the "123" on my later 280sl especially with the throttle body that is on my car?  Should I simply run the "123" vacuum line direct to the throttle body and not through the 2-way valve?  Then disconnect the 2-way valve and relays for emission control?

It's the throttle body version that is the real question... Can I use my current throttle body?

Another question is the need for a longer spring.  I received an email direct from Aryan at "123" who stated NOT to use a longer spring.  He said the longer spring will cause the 123 to wear quicker (use the original 20mm OE spring).  Can you comment on this?  What is your opinion, especially since the 123 has a 10mm recess hole in it's bottom and 1/2 of the OE spring sits inside the 123 unit.

Thank you very much!
Bob 

[waqas]

Apologies for the interjection here, but perhaps I'm the only one who gets confused whenever there's any discussion about the 123 distributor.

From what I understand, there are the 123 chassis Mercedes cars from the late 70s to the mid 80s. These came with distributors that can be found at dealers and many other suppliers. (made by Bosch presumably?)

Then there is the "123 distributor" which is a specific [non-Bosch?] product (with pre-programmed advance curves and whatnot) which is sold through specialized dealers.

Is it correct to assume however that the "123 distributor" was never original equipment in any 123 chassis Mercedes car?

Thanks in advance for clarifying my "misunderestimation"... 

[bpossel]

Hi Waqas,

You are correct.  We should probably move this "123" discussion to the "123" postings...
Bob 

[Peter van Es]

I've merged the topics.

I'm getting a lot of private questions on the vacuum line and the throttle body. I am fairly certain I have a throttle body as in the last picture in the Tech Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Fuel.Throttle)-- i.e. the most recent, as for a 1970/71 SL -- and my vacuum line is connected in that same spot as in that picture. It's a bit hard to check at the moment as my car is parked against the wall and I'm hesitant to take it out currently with the bad weather. I've just  checked it and can confirm.

I checked my vacuum line, and it is connected normally to the 123-distributor, and the air intake housing at the other end... NOT on the venturi side. That inlet is closed off with some sort of screw in the hose. To see what emissions control stuff has been removed on my engine, check this thread: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10066.0

Naj presumed:

At this point in the venturi, there is a vacuum signal all the time the engine is running. So, the centrifugal advance would advance the timing with engine speed but the vacuum would retard it, and the engine would not run well and lose power. So, what have they done to take care of this? There could be an eloborate chip in the distributor to adjust vacuum retard according to engine speed, but I doubt it. So if you do have the latest body, what was done? One idea is to block the vacuum completely, and I guess you would not know any different!

Read the 123 manual in one of the posts below, or the 123 website.  There IS a very advanced, microprocessor in that device. See the picture of one opened below. It has a selector switch to select one of 16 different parametric patterns / curves. It knows engine speed and it has the vacuum line connected... but I have no idea how it works internally other than that.

I experience NO power loss at all, in fact the engine feels really excellent with the 123 distributor.

If you need to know more, I suggest you post questions on the 123-forum, http://www.123ignition.nl/forum/. It is excellent, and frequented by the designers of the device. They'll be able to answer all your questions much more accurately!

Peter

[Naj ✝︎]

I checked my vacuum line, and it is connected normally to the 123-distributor, and the air intake housing at the other end... NOT on the venturi side. That inlet is closed off with some sort of screw in the hose.

Peter

Can you post a picture showing:
 'NOT on the venturi side. That inlet is closed off with some sort of screw in the hose'

Thanks
naj

[Peter van Es]

Naj,

that quote was in response to a question from Bob in the emissions control topic. I just checked my throttle body (squeezing past in the garage) and it it EXACTLY as the last photograph in the Tech manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Fuel.Throttle) and the vacuum line is connected like that too.

Peter

[Ziggy]

Ziggy, that is sooo cool that you were involved with the R&D of the "123" and we have you with us on this forum  !

Can you further explain how I should install the "123" on my later 280sl especially with the throttle body that is on my car?  Should I simply run the "123" vacuum line direct to the throttle body and not through the 2-way valve?  Then disconnect the 2-way valve and relays for emission control?

It's the throttle body version that is the real question... Can I use my current throttle body?

Another question is the need for a longer spring.  I received an email direct from Aryan at "123" who stated NOT to use a longer spring.  He said the longer spring will cause the 123 to wear quicker (use the original 20mm OE spring).  Can you comment on this?  What is your opinion, especially since the 123 has a 10mm recess hole in it's bottom and 1/2 of the OE spring sits inside the 123 unit.

Indeed, there is no need for a longer spring. Installation of the vacuum line of the 123 is very simple (that is why they called it "123", as in 1-2-3 installation) you just connect it to the throttle body. There is no need ever to change throttle body, there are several different curves for both advance and retard depending on your engine/throttle body.
If your emission control is connected to the same vacuum port you can use it as well by using a T piece tube, as long as the vacuum tube of the 123 is directly connected to the throttle body. But personally I would just disconnect any emission stuff.
When you have installed it you can verify proper operation with a timing light, on 1500, 3000 and 4500 rpm with and without vacuum.

[bpossel]

Thanks Everyone!
Peter, thanks for combining the posts...
I look forward to getting the 123 setup this weekend and taking pics and notes for the manual.
Lots of great advice and input on this!
Thanks again!
Bob 

[Peter van Es]

Can you post a picture showing:
 'NOT on the venturi side. That inlet is closed off with some sort of screw in the hose'

Thanks
naj

Here it is... pardon my un-detailed engine bay. On the picture of the Throttle Body you can see the (new) vacuum line (white) run into the Throttle Body on the right hand side (looking from the driver seat to the front of the car), over the top, into the black rubber hose. Right on the opposite side of the Throttle Body (the lefthand side) you see a short rubber hose closed off with the screw. That's what I was referring to.

Peter

[Naj ✝︎]

Thanks, Peter,

Could be a vacuum test port for tuning???

naj

[bpossel]

Thanks, Peter,

Could be a vacuum test port for tuning???

naj

Naj,
That port is used for a idle lifting (vacuum cell, #3 on the diagram below) on the later cars with automatic.  It helps to lift the idle a bit when you put the automatics in gear.  When I had my IP pump rebuilt, they performed a Bosch Service Bulletin procedure on the IP Pump which came out in later 71/72? which allows for the omission of this vacuum cell and still maintain a nice idle in gear.  See tech manual for more detail.

[bpossel]

Update 1/31...

I set the "123" curve setting to "E" for the "062" bosch distributor.
I installed an earlier bosch coil (1,8 ohm), and connected the distributor directly to the coil (no ballast resistors).
Connected the "123" vacuum directly to the throttle righthand side (I plugged the left side hole).
I removed all of my emission control stuff:
2 black boxes; 2-way valve; current relay; disconnected the 17 & 100 degree switches; disconnected the fuel shut-off solenoid on the IP Pump.
Set timing to 30@3,000 rpm without vacuum. When reconnect the vacuum, it settles to "0" @~1,000rpm.  When I put the car in gear, idle drops to ~800rpm.
Initial test drive was very nice!  It seems to have a lot more pick-up and only a very slight bit of burbeling when coasting downhill, a nice sound! It seems to shift smooth on acceleration and downshift nicely.
Only time will tell and I need to do some more testing, but so far so good!
If all continues to go this smooth, I will pack up the emission control stuff and save for the next owner....
More to come...
Bob 

[Peter van Es]

Bob,

I'm so pleased you're pleased after all this... what did you do with the spring? The original or a longer one?

I went for a nice drive today, it was cold (freezing) but sunny and dry, and I took my Pagoda out for a 60 km spirited drive... I'm also pleased with my 123 ignition... started straight away when cold and restarted an hour later (warm) after a bit of shopping -- I had to get groceries for an Italian meal for 8 people that I cooked tonight (recipies on request) -- with my rebuilt injection pump pickup is excellent across the entire rev range, and accellerating onto the motorway, up to 5000 revs (155 km/h, a bit over the speed limit, but only for short distances) is fun.

So Bob, keep test driving... or whatever excuse you need!

Peter

[Ziggy]

You will be Happy with the 123 Bob. I know, I have been using it for over 5 years on a daily basis, and have made more miles with it than everybody combined on this forum with one. As a nice side effect your milage will increase by about 10% (if you didn't already have transistorized ignition and while keeping the same driving habits)
But since you also disconnected the emission control, if you want it to run better/have more power I would use curve #8.

[Ziggy]

Hi 66,
Yes, the benefits are the same for every model supported, if they already haven't transistorized ignition (early electronic ignition). But the 230SL never had that.
If you have transistor ignition the milage increase will be very small.

But I will tell you a secret, the technical manual on this site states an aftermarktet transistorized ignition would "not be practical and costly".
This is not so, for about 20$ you can get an universal transistor ignition, which also will get you a ±7,5% power and milage increase.
I have built these in a lot of vintage Mercedes, and it really is a must.
The 123 ignition is something when your old distributor is really worn, but if it is only normal wear the most economic thing to do is an universal.
 

[bpossel]

Naj, Ziggy,

Changed the curve setting to "8" as suggested.  Set timing to ~30@3,000 w/o vacuum.
Idle is set to ~900 (out of gear) @ "0" with vacuum connected
When engage gear, idle drops to ~800.
With vacuum connected I am getting a max of ~20@3,000rpm.  I reach the max ~20@~2,000 rpm.
Bob 

[Naj ✝︎]

Bob,

I would say this curve is not good for your application.

The vac is retarding the timing at 3000 rpm.

Did the same thing happen with the 'E' curve?

naj

[Ziggy]

It's odd Bob, since at 3000 rpm there should be no vacuum. At that point it doesn't matter which curve you select.
Are you sure you did it right? If so, connect the vacuum and turn the distributor to 30@3000. Then verify the settings at the other rpm's.

These are the official specifications:
051, no vacuum 2-4atdc@800, 12-19@1500, 30@3000
062, with vacuum 8atdc@800, 0-5btdc@1500, 25-30@3000

The 051 has a 10 degree vacuum retard and the 062 20 degrees. I'm not sure why they specify to check the 062 with and the 051 without vacuum.

for Waqas

[bpossel]

Thanks Ziggy, I'll have another go at it tomorrow evening....  I'll recheck and set 30@3000 with vac and see what the lower rpms look like...
Bob 

[bpossel]

It's odd Bob, since at 3000 rpm there should be no vacuum. At that point it doesn't matter which curve you select.
Are you sure you did it right? If so, connect the vacuum and turn the distributor to 30@3000. Then verify the settings at the other rpm's.

These are the official specifications:
051, no vacuum 2-4atdc@800, 12-19@1500, 30@3000
062, with vacuum 8atdc@800, 0-5btdc@1500, 25-30@3000

Ziggy & Naj,
With "123" curve set at "8", here are the readings:
30@3000 w/o vacuum
20@1500 w/o vacuum
5@1000 w/vacuum
Then 20@3000 w/vacuum (20 was the max it would go)

Reset to curve "E", here are the readings (much the same as "8":
30@3000 w/o vacuum
20@1500 w/o vacuum (idle)
adjusted to 10@1000 w/o vacuum (idle)
then connected vacuum and got 0@1000 w/vacuum (idle) --- ~800rpm in gear
rechecked and only get a max of 20@3000 (20 was the max!)

At this point I quit for the night.... 
Bob 

[Ziggy]

From this information, I would say the 123 is properly functioning. However, the timing is about 10 degrees off. Have you tried setting the timing to 30 with vacuum at 3000 rpm and then verify the timing at 1500 and ±800 (also with vacuum)
Can you feel any suction at the tube at 3000 rpm?
Are you sure you are using the right timing scale? I think your engine has the dual type timing scale with the late (triangular) pointer. In this case you must use the inner scale (towards the engine)

[bpossel]

Hi Ziggy,

Yes, I am using the inner scale, closest to the engine. When I set the timing to 30 w/vacuum, my idle was then ~1500@15.  I then rotated the 123 and dropped it to 5@1000 w/vacuum.  Next I retested at 3000 with vacuum, and the max I got was 20.  So you are right....  there is an extra 10 in the equation...?  Any add'l suggestions?
Thanks!
Bob

[Ziggy]

 
When you set the timing to 30@3000 with vacuum, and you disconnect it, what happens then? And when you reconnect it?

Have you also tried the official 1-2-3 method as described in the manual ? What timing do you get with that?

[bpossel]

Hi Ziggy,

I will do that test tomorrow and let you know.. thanks!!
Bob

[bpossel]

Hi All!
It's been awhile and I wanted to update you on the “123” installation in my car.  It’s been a real challenge, nothing to do with the “123”, rather just my car.

In summary, all is working great! With my emission system now fully functional, I have the “123” set on curve “E”, timing set at 8 degrees ATDC at idle (~800rpm in park & ~750 in gear).  I am only able to get a max of 25 BTDC @ 3,000 rpms…  CO% at idle ~5.2% (seems to run better a bit richer…)
What my original issue was, a previous owner had installed a “009” distributor in my car, cut the wire which connects the speed relay to the coil, which caused my 2-way valve not to kick in at ~2200 rpms.  I believe the previous owner installed the "009" when the original Pertronix was installed.  Pertronix didnt make a version for the "062"?

With the “009” it also masked a lean condition on the IP, which surfaced when I set the timing back to 8 degrees ATDC.  The engine was coughing between ~1100 & ~2000. 
So with the new “123” installed, timing set correctly per spec, and ip adjusted (in my case more rich), the engine now runs pretty good!  The shifting on the transmission is also now much smoother, with no more “kick” on the final downshift as I come to a stop.
If you decide to upgrade your distributor to a “123”, let me know if I can help answer any questions.  I am not an expert, but with some experience, I may be able to save you some time.  I can also recommend a USA distributor for the “123” if needed.
Bob 

[Peter van Es]

Pleased to hear it, Bob!

Peter

[jpressick]

I have a 250SL and am considering a 123 distributor. After reading all the discussions on the Forum I am convinced that is the way to go. Has anyone bought the 123 on ebay where it is cheaper and if so what were the results? 

[bpossel]

I purchased mine from John Parker at Vintage Performance Developments and paid less then the current eBay ad.
You can contact him at "jparker3@twcny.rr.com".  Very nice & helpful guy!

I would only suggest that you first try to have your original distributor rebuilt.  This is what I did, and mine was not fixable, so the 123 was a good option for me.

Good Luck and let us know if you have any further questions...
Bob 

[jpressick]

Thanks Bob,  I have been told that if the 123 is bought " off the shelf" the base of the 123 has to be machined to fit properly in the block and also the wires need to be modified.  Have you heard about this and did you run into these problems?  By the way I did contact John Parker but he is currently out of the 123.  Thanks again, Jim

[bpossel]

Yes, John P, as well as others will most likely not "stock" the 123 distributors.  They will take your request and place an order for it.  I dont think the 123 folks sell directly?  You will need to be patient, as the order could take 6+ weeks...  Mine took that long, but some of that delay was due to the holidays.

I did not modify the wiring or have to machine to fit.  Just hooked the 2 wires straight to the coil.

I do believe the earlier W113's had a separate collar that clamps the distributor in place and that if you turn this collar around that it will fit without any other changes..  My 280SL's collar is integrated into the distributor housing and didnt require any mods.

Peter, others, any comments on the earlier W113's?

Bob 

[wwheeler]

I bought the 123 distributor for my '68 280 SE 111. The person I purchased it from machines the base as Jim indicated and includes wires to by-pass the ballast resistor. I was told as well that the machining was done in order for the clamp to fit correctly and they insisted that it needed to be done.

When I went to install the distributor with the machined recess, I could not understand why it was needed. I was somewhat annoyed to because the bases are nickle plated and when it was machined, the aluminum was then exposed. Not a big problem but when you are paying that much for something, you want it to be right. The by-pass wires were handy and it does work well.

[bpossel]

Seems odd?  I am currently running with the "123".  Have ~300 miles on it and it works perfectly.  My "123" only came with 2 wires for a direct connect to the coil (no ballast required.  Coil must be at least 1 ohm primary resistance). I also installed the "123" right out of the box without any machining required.  I just had to set the curve level via the adjustment screw on the bottom of the unit.
Anyone else have any comments on this?
Bob 

[Cees Klumper]

Mine fit right in, no machining or superfluous wires. All I had to do was set the advance curve switch inside the unit, hook it up and set the static timing to get it running, then fine-tuned with the timing light. A idle, the engine is noticeably smoother now. I believe I posted my install-experience in this thread a few months ago.

[awolff280sl]

I remember the person who sold me the 123 had me place my 058 next to the 123 distributor on the bench.  I saw that the distance from where they would contact the collar to the tip  of the drive dog was a few milllimeters shorter for the 123. Grinding the undersurface of the 123 is apparently done to allow the dog to engage deeper into the helical gear. Based upon what I'm reading here, the dog must be sufficiently engaged without any modification.   

[mbzse]

I bought the 123 distributor.../... I was told that the machining was done in order for the clamp to fit correctly and they insisted that it needed to be done.
When I went to install the distributor with the machined recess, I could not understand why it was needed.

The 123 housing will be caught on the clamp, and thus the device will not reach down deep enough
The shaft of the distributor needs to reach down fully into the mounting recess. This is in order for
the dog tooth drive to engage properly, and for the drive shaft/gear to stay in position, and not come upwards.
This is important! Distributor will work initially, but fail with time

On any W113 other than late 280SL:s, the housing does not need to be machined however. On 230SL, 250SL and early 280SL cars,
a simple way to achieve the same is to
bend the clamp piece as per the attached picture. This is best done by putting it in a vice and hammer it into shape (see pics).

To turn this clamp upside down is another method - however this makes the locking screw hard to reach (it will face the radiator and the spinning fan...)
For mounting 123 into late 280SL:s - see postings entered later!
/Hans in Sweden

[bpossel]

 ???What years, models of W113's had the separate collar for the distibutor?

It looks like what we are saying is that the "later" W113's that used the 1 piece distributor housing (collar integrated) does not require any modifications.  The earlier models with 2 piece housing (collar separate) requires modification.

Bob 

[awolff280sl]

OR, that any modification for the later 113s would have to be done on the 123 itself since the collar cannot be inverted or bent flat.

[Naj ✝︎]

???What years, models of W113's had the separate collar for the distibutor?

It looks like what we are saying is that the "later" W113's that used the 1 piece distributor housing (collar integrated) does not require any modifications.  The earlier models with 2 piece housing (collar separate) requires modification.

Bob 

Not sure when the separate collar was discontinued but here's what it looks like:

Note how the clamp interferes with the 123 housing.

[mbzse]

It looks like what we are saying is that the "later" W113's that used the 1 piece distributor housing (collar integrated)
does not require any modifications.  The earlier models with 2 piece housing (collar separate) requires modification

Yes guys, thanks for this reminder. I just plain forgot that late production cars did away with the collar -
thus owners of such cars enter a different situation when it comes to mounting the 123-distributor

What years, models of W113's had the separate collar for the distibutor?

All 280SL mount a M130.983 engine. The late 280SL cars lacked this separate distributor shaft clamp

Change over Engine Numbers when clamp fell away are:
Manual transmission engine No 7 516
Automatic transmission engine No 14 136
Please don't ask me to translate this to 280SL chassis No's 
But an indication is, the last 4 000 or so 280SL:s were delivered without the clamp

/Hans in Sweden

[scp]

Forgive me if this has been answered before - not yet clear to me based on my searches.

I have a 1968 280SL built in March 1968.  I assume it does not have a transistorized ignition (please verify if known).

I recently purchased a 123 distributor in hopes of avoiding future issues and would like to know the following prior to installing (and possibly burning out something expensive):

1) which new bosch coil to purchase (red, blue, or silver for transistorized ignitions)?
   - some European sites recommend the blue one (e.g. http://www.leenapk.nl/product_details.php?item_id=4&language_code=en)
   - some US sites recommend the red one (e.g. http://www.brooklyn300.com/123ignition/introducing123)
2) what resistor to use (if any)?  As above, there does not seem to be agreement based on google and 113 searches
3) is there a way (and benefit) to adding transistorized ignition?  If so, how to do and is it worth it?
   - if added, does it change the answer to my first question on coils?
4) anything else that must or should be updated at the same time the 123 distributor is added?

Thanks to everyone for all the kind help to date.

Cheers,
- SCP

[awolff280sl]

Hi,
1. I'm using the red coil.
2. I've jumped my resistor.
3. Your 1968 would not have original transistorized ignition. If using a 123, you would not need transisitorized ignition.
4. The only issue I can think of is the question of the collar which has been discussed above and in other posts on the 123.

My 123 has been functioning flawlessly. I set it and forgot it.

[bpossel]

SCP,

Like Andy, my "123" works great!  As he mentioned, check the posts on this site for the distributor collar adjustment.
Also measure the primary resistance of your coil. If it is lower than 1 ohm you need to use another coil, if it is 1 ohm or more it is ok to use it.
The "123" likes the full 12 volts, so no need for the ballast resistors, they can be removed. Use the "123" curve setting "8" for your setup.
Good Luck!
bob

[jeffc280sl]

Another satisfied 123Ignition customer.  Arrived this afternoon.  Its installed and just got back from a 15 minute spirited drive.  The engine is noticably smoother.  Will do final timing and idle adjustment tomorrow.

[tuultyme]

Jeff and Bob
Did you leave your speed relay hooked up and does the system still work?  on 70 and 71 cars.

[bpossel]

Hello Bruce!

Yes, I am running the '123' with all emissions equipment connected (speed relay, 2-way valve, etc).  Vacuum port on the '123' is connected to my 2-way valve.  I did disconnect the fuel shut-off solenoid.  With the emissions "stuff" all working correctly, leaving it connected along with the '123' worked best for me.

I know others are running the '123' w/o their emissions equip. connected and theirs also runs good. I believe that with this setup, the idle rpms will be a bit higher, since the 2-way valve is no longer reducing the vacuum.

My in-gear idle is 750, my out-of-gear idle is 1,000 rpms.

Let me know if you need any add'l info.

Bob 

[The Hawaiian]

Bob:

I have a 1970 280SL and have read with interest the many 123 threads.  Your post has been invaluable since I too have the transistorized ignition.  My last question is in respect to the spring that fits into the bottom of the distributor.   I have read that the original spring will not work with the 123 distributor and to source that via a hardware store.  Did your source provide the new spring, or did you use the old spring, or no spring at all?  Thanks in advance (no pun intended).

Norman Howard

[bpossel]

Hello Norman,

Per the '123' mfg in the Netherlands, no spring is needed, thus they don't supply the spring.  I just didnt understand "no spring is needed" ?  MB installed a spring between the distributor drive gear and the bottom of the distributor for a reason?  Seems like the spring is to cushion the 2 parts as they spin and the drive gear moves slightly up & down.

The '123' has a recess of ~10mm on its bottom.  I took the original spring to my local hardware store (my local, good 'ole fashion Mayberry hardware store...) and they matched the original spring (# of windings, tension) with one that was an add'l 10mm in length.  I dont recall the original MB spring length, maybe 10mm, so the new one is ~20mm...  It's best to pull out your original and take it with you as you locate the longer one...

I want to also clarify that I disconnected my MB transistor box.  I am running the '123' straight off my coil (1.8 ohm). No ballasts either. Gernold warned me that without any ballasts that I shouldn't leave my key on too long without starting the engine up.  It could burn up the '123'. 

To date, I have 2,600 miles on the car since installing the '123' and it runs really nicely.

Please let me know if you have any add'l questions...
Bob   

[jeffc280sl]

I concur with everything Bob said.  My 123 is installed without a spring and my emission setup is just like Bob's.  I also understandf his comments about not leaving the key on.  I can hear the 123 clicking away sometimes if the key is in the on position.  Don't imagine its doing anything good to the 123 in this condition.

[Eminent]

Well, today i changed the original distributor for the 123.
It's indeed a great improvement. The engine idle's steady now, no more backfire when i decelerate, run's smooth on LPG.
But i have a few questions though.
I also replaced the coil for the red coil from Bosch.
This coil has a resistance of 1.7 ohm
The coil is now connected to (what i think) the orginal resistor.
It is wired form there to terminal number 15 at the coil.
It's located below the coil and has a resistance of 1.3 ohm.
So what i do best.
Connect the coil with no resisitor at all to get the best spark, leave it connected to the original resistor or use the 1.8 ohm resistor from Bosch?
The text on the coil warned to use it only with a resistor.
Thanks in advance.
Rini.

[AudioGuy]

Here's the problem, I have a 1970 280SL has been modified for the Euro throttle body (no vacuum past idle), no emission and the 123 distributor.  I am currently using position 8 but there is not as much power as I would anticipate (rebuilt engine) and according to the information from 123, the distributor only advance 22 degrees at 2400 rpm.  I think the ideal is 30 degrees at 3000 rpm.  What setting do you recommend?

[wwheeler]

On curve #8, I believe my advance is 22 @ 2400 RPM AND 30 @ 3000 RPM. I believe the distributor no longer advances after 3000RPM but is still advancing at 2400RPM. The engine label says to check the timing at 4000 or 4500 (can't remember which), but there is no significant difference between 3000 and 4000 RPM. Sorry, I can't help with the emissions stuff.