Valve Adjustment Problem

[113gray]

In measuring my clearances today, one intake seems too tight & at least 5 exhaust seem too loose using .003" & .007" respectively. However, when I tried to loosen or tighten the adjusting 14 mm hex nuts for correction, it seems to require excessive torque to move these bolts - so much so, that I'm worried about rounding them off or even breaking them. I can use a breaker bar, but this seems even more excessive, way more force than I would expect necessary. I am using a 14 mm crowfoot & this makes me a little nervous also. Before I get into trouble, I thought I'd better ask for some advice. Thanks, -JP- '66 230SL

[JimVillers]

JP .... The "crow-foot" is not strong enough.  You need to buy the special tool for adjusting the valves.  You will most likely bend open the crow-foot before moving the adjuster.  Here is an image:

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor, MGB 5-Speed

[Naj ✝︎]

On such adjusters, I removed the rocker finger and used a hex (not bi-hex) socket to move the adjuster in the required direction before reinstalling the rocker.
Bit of trial and error required....

naj

68 280SL

[JimVillers]

A better picture of the required tool (about $80-100).


Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor, MGB 5-Speed

[lurtch]

- - one more thing JP,
Be sure and check the camlobe for scuffing on the one that was running too tight. Several of mine were damaged beyond repair.  Larry in CA

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[ja17]

Hello Jim P,

Naj and Jim V are right on target. The factory tool is a must. The jaws on it are deeper than a standard crows foot. You can use a breaker bar with it. If you still have problems, use naj's suggestion and remove the rocker arm and use a six point socket on it. Once the ball stud adjuster is broken loose you can re-install the rocker arm and the adjuster tool should work.

This is not uncommon on engines left without a valve adjustment for many miles. Things get stuck. It is a good idea to loosen the radiator cap and re-torque the head before beginning the procedure if it has not been done in a while.

On your valve adjustment, I like to insert the feeler guage and turn  the adjuster until the feeler gauge is locked in place , then I loosen the ball stud adjuster until the feller gauge can be removed with slight drag. Good luck!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[113gray]

WOW! Where else on earth can you post your problem in the late PM & get 100% expert answers -with pictures- before 8 AM the following morning, a Sunday? Our group is just a wonderful resource. To Joe A., yes, I did retorque the headbolts (hot/radiator cap off) before attempting the valve adjustment. Thanks to all,   Jim Pancoast

[rogerh113]

Hello,

Sounds like an essential tool (I was just waiting for my regular crow's foot to round off one of the adjusting nuts).  Is Hazet the recommended brand and does anyone have a part number??  Also, is there a suggested vendor that carries these?

Thanks -- Roger

[erickmarciano]

what is the procedure to retorque the head?
thanks

1999 ml320<sold it at last>
2004 Volvo s60 T5
1971 280sl
1962 VW bug
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa

[psmith]

Hey Roger,

If you find one, maybe that's something several of us Nor-Cal guys could go in together on.

Pete S.

[Naj ✝︎]

Hazet Tappet adjustment crow-foots:

14mm    2770-2
17mm    2770-3

naj

68 280SL

[Ben]

I just did this on my 280SE, every one of the adjusters was extremely tight, I had to remove each rocker and adjust a refit, very tight !!

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[113gray]

Eric, For RE-torquing, the head bolts: a) engine should be @ operating temp; b) loosen each bolt individually +/- 1/2 turn, re-tightern to specs (I used 70 ft-lbs) & then go to the next bolt in sequence. (Don't loosen all at once.)c) Start with the middle pair & work out. #1 is the DS middle bolt, #2 the PS, #3 DS in front of the middle pair, #4 PS, #5 DS just aft of mid pair, #6 PS, ----etc. There are 14 in all. The 4 smaller bolts on the front are tightened manually by "feel", and are do not require the degree of torque/precision of the other 14 (I think). The BBB, Haynes & TDM have good diagrams.  d) Note that torquing the bolts when installing the head is a different process.     -JP-

[rogerh113]

Hi Pete,

Maybe a good idea if it can be kept track of...  essential tool that you only need very occasionally (and can be planned ahead).  

I have every confidence I can find one.

Roger

[rogerh113]

Thanks for the part numbers.  Are the adjustment nuts 14mm or 17mm???   It's super hot in the garage due to the weather here, so I am avoiding a quick visit under the valve cover if at all possible......

Thanks -- Roger

[Cees Klumper]

The 14 mm is for the 230 SL, 17 mm for the 280 SL (and possibly the 250 SL)

I found that even with the Hazet tool, it can still round off the adjusters. If that is at all at risk, remove the rocker arm and use the 6-point socket. There are handy tools for removing the rocker arms, otherwise it can be done with a large screwdriver to depress the valve spring.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[rogerh113]

Thanks Cees.  Sounds like the most practical approach is for me to learn how to remove a rocker arm..... shouldn't be too tough.

Regards -- Roger

[enochbell]

JP,

Take heed, especially of Cees' post.  That 14mm Hazet will still round the ball stud in a Pagoda minute, especially if the studs have been idle for a while.  The rockers come off easily if you have a spring tool, I got an inexpensive one and it works just fine.  You can then "crack" the studs with a deep socket and they will adjust with the Hazet upon reassembly.  If you have already screwed it up, let me know.  I have a few extra ball studs I bought on my first (painful) try at this.

Best,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[rogerh113]

Hi,

What does this inexpensive spring tool look like, and where did you get it??  Sounds like using a regular crows-foot after loosening may still round out the bolt??  

I have a 2.5 liter low compression engine, so it seems like I will have to open up the valve cover to find out what's in there......

Thanks -- Roger

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by rogerh113

I have every confidence I can find one.

http://samstagsales.com/

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[enochbell]

Roger,

I picked up up the spring compresser from Napa, it is a "universal" for OH cam engines.  I recall it was about $30.  And yes, the crow foot will round the shoulders for sure.  BTW, the ball stud has a remarkably simple way of keeping it's tension.  There are actually 2 sets of threads on the bottom of the stud, the first (bottom) will screw in to the head with about the effort of a spark plug but then you get to the second set (top) that are machined just a tad off of the first set.  Same pitch, just a hair off from the first set, and enough to create the constant (and very high) friction that keeps the ball stud from moving.

Best,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[lurtch]

Being frugal to a fault - - - I refused to buy a tool I would only use once every couple of years so I came up with a better idea. The photos illustate the use of a special tool I made to facilitate the valve adjusting operation.

By slipping the rocker arm out of the way you can make the fine adjustment on the ball stud by using a 1/2 in drive deep socket instead of the HAZET tool. Then just compress the valve spring, slip it back in between the forks of this tool,  and recheck your adjustment.

For what it's worth - - Larry in CA

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Download Attachment: spring-compression-tool.jpg
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[psmith]

Hi Larry,

It sounds like Roger and some of the rest of us need to come over for a demonstration of your valve adjustment tool!

Pete S.

[Ben]

I just use a long screwdriver, engine is in the car so less room, but it only takes about 3 seconds to remove a rocker !

Question; If you have to adjust the valves because you have excess clearance, you are therefore "loosening" the adjuster. Is there a risk of opening the wrong threads i.e the part the adjuster screws into ? Will it come out of the head ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[ja17]

Hello Ben,

The chance of the base coming loose is very unlikely.  I have seen cases where the ball stud threads become loose and replacement of the ball stud is needed. Sometimes these "ball studs" wear forming a crown on their tops. If badly "crowned" the crown  should be ground off or the ball stud replaced.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[enochbell]

Ben,

Theoretically yes, you could adjust the height so far as to expose the locking threads on the stud and, effectively, loosen the stud from the head.  But I don't think there should be any worry about actually running out of thread and risking pulling the stud out of the head.  There is at least a cm of travel in the stud with the threads properly seated, and if you needed to go to the max height it could only be because there is so much wear in the valve, rocker, cap, cam...you would be into a new head way before you ran out of adjustment.  On the other hand, I think if you were to run the stud in and out of the head too many times it would lose some of the friction that keeps it in place, it would become too easy to turn, and then you would need to replace it.

And that is WAY too much information about ball studs, I think.

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[Ricardo]

Hey Greg
Not too much info at all!
I'm wondering if when the threads start to weep oil through to the spark plug, if this is an indication of worn adjuster threads and a likelyhood of changing valve lash?, or are the threads in the base at fault for oil seepage?...... Joe?

[enochbell]

Ricardo,

I don't think it is possible to leak, I believe the threads are cut in a blind hole in the head.

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[ja17]

Hello Recardo,
Not really, the weeping is caused when oil leaks past the threads in the ball stud base threads in the head. Consequently, these threads are open to the area above the spark plugs. This is frequently mistaken for a valve cover gasket leak. You can actually feel the bottom of the ball stud base in the recess above the spark plug if you feel for it. I am not sure what actually causes the ball stud adjusters to become too loose, but it is unusual.
The scary part is that the base of the ball studs on the other side are open to the exhaust ports in the head. So if these are leaking oil is mysteriously burned off in the exhaust.


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Raymond]

Joe,
  I have a bit of a leak over a plug that seems to be coming from the bottom of the ball stud.  What's the best fix? Should I replace the ball stud?  There aren't any other problems with valves or adjustments.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[113gray]

To update my "valve adjustment problem", my project is finished & my Pagoda (143,000 mi) original engine idles, runs smoothly & w/ good power. To share a few things learned in addition to the great help the list provided: 1) The Hazet 14mm valve wrench you recommended is a huge help. 2)That said, I found that measuring lash w/o temporarily removing the wrench could result in inaccurate readings. 3) Also, the rocker arm springs need to be perfectly installed for correct readings. 4) I have not learned to use my big screwdriver very well to depress valve springs for rocker arm removal. I wish for the "special tool" which appears not only simple but very effective as illustrated in the BBB. The job got done, but it was not pretty! 5) The BBB identifies the position of the intake valves w/ an "E", exhaust w/ "A". Perfectly clear if one knows "ein" & "aus", but it confused me -easily done- until I marked the intakes by the adjacent injectors. 6) Understanding that there are 2 sets of threads on the ball studs slightly different from each other as a locking mechanism helps to comprehend the correct "feel" for turning them. 7) My valve cover was not as easy to remove as I had anticipated. Between the FI lines in front & hood latch in back, it was very tight indeed.
All's well now, however. I thank you all for the wonderful responses to my call for help.     -JP- 230 SL 5 Spd

[al_lieffring]

quote:Originally posted by 113gray

 My valve cover was not as easy to remove as I had anticipated. Between the FI lines in front & hood latch in back, it was very tight indeed.      -JP- 230 SL 5 Spd

Sometimes if the rubber trans. mount is flattened out it can be hard to get the zundfolge off/on to adjust the valves. Putting a floor jack under the bellhousing and taking the pressure off the rear mount will give you the extra clearanceyou need to get it past the hood latch.

Al

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

[113gray]

Al, That's a good tip about jacking the bell housing for more clearance in removing the valve cover. Thanks,     -JP-

[al_lieffring]

quote:Originally posted by 113gray

Al, That's a good tip about jacking the bell housing for more clearance in removing the valve cover. Thanks,     -JP-

Because it's been 20 years since I have worked at a Benz shop I't takes me a while to recall some of the clever tricks that we came up with to work on these cars. When removing rocker arms, even though I have the spring compressor that is shown in the BBB I usually just used an Allen wrench with the short end inserted into the lube hole for the ball stud and levered it up and off to the side.

Al



113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

[merrill]

113 Gray
to retorque the head does one use an allen socket?  if so what is the size?

thanks
matt

[113gray]

Originally posted by merrill

113 Gray
to retorque the head does one use an allen socket?  if so what is the size?

Matt, Yes, I use a 10mm allen socket, 1/2" drive. It is 4 1/2" long, which is a big help in providing clearance.          -JP-

[merrill]

113gray,
sorry, another question for you, I am getting all the parts together to get this car back on the road.
I have read that it is best to re torque the head after the car has been run to normal operating temp.

would it be bad to torque the head cold and then do the valves ?
lord only know when the last of the parts I need come in and I want to get the car back on the road rather than keep messing with it.

thanks in advance
matt

[113gray]

"I have read that it is best to re torque the head after the car has been run to normal operating temp.

would it be bad to torque the head cold and then do the valves ?"

Matt, IMHO, it's probably a waste of time trying to adjust valves accurately until until the head bolts have been tightened w/ engine hot. I don't know what engine work you're doing, but if the head is off for instance, & you can't run it to get it hot, the procedure is quite a bit different. Briefly, in reassembly work, the head bolts are each tightened both sequentially & also in stages, I recall 4 stages ?, of specified increasing torques. Then valve clearances are then set cold & after the engine is running and has been a few miles ,maybe 100-200, the head bolts are retorqued "hot". The next morning, on a cold engine, the valve clearances are then checked & set as required. I am certainly not an expert here & there are many that are on our list. I hope they will chip in. If you're doing any thing very major, you're very courageous to do it w/o a shop manual/BBB unless considerably experienced. Good luck,  -JP-

[ja17]

quote:Originally posted by Raymond

Joe,
  I have a bit of a leak over a plug that seems to be coming from the bottom of the ball stud.  What's the best fix? Should I replace the ball stud?  There aren't any other problems with valves or adjustments.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

Hello Ray,
The base for the ball stud is threaded and screws into the head. this threaded hole is open to the recess above the spark plugs. You can feel it with your finger right above the spark plug. This seepage will show up as a wet or darkened spot around the spark plugs. It is often mistaken for a valve cover leak.

To cure the problem the rocker arm is removed the ball stud and its base is unscrewed. (You will need a long 1/2" breaker bar and a 24mm deep socket). The threads are cleaned and sealed with gasket shellac, permatex #2, locktite or such. (I recommend not using silicone sealers). Never use anti-seize on the bases or they may accidentally begin to turn during a normal valve adjustment. The base MUST be correctly torqued back into  place. The rocker arm is then re-installed and valve lash adjusted.

There is a danger as Dan Caron has pointed out previously. Occasionally the threaded base becomes seized in the aluminum cylinder head and when attempting removal, the threads become gaulded and damaged. An afternoons work turns into days of torture as a result.

Some other suggestions are that if you attempt the job try to remove the ball stud bases while the engine is still warm. You may wish to seal only the leakers since they are "pre-lubed". The good dry ones are more likely to seize and gauld.

The 230SL engines and possibly early 250SLs had 14mm ball stud adjusters  and the later 250SLs and all the 280SLs had 17mm ball stud adjusters. The bases on the two types are different but are both 24mm wrench size.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio