Author Topic: points vs. electronic ign.  (Read 7225 times)

Ricardo

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points vs. electronic ign.
« on: August 10, 2004, 09:01:40 »
I thought I would report on my conversion back to a points system from a Crane electronic module.
My car came from the previous owner with a Crane XR3000 high intensity system. He informed me that he had some running /starting issues which the Crane system seemed to cure and that he was generally happy with it. He had experienced complete failure of the module though, which resulted in a tow back to his mechanic and it was discovered that the module was full of water. This was replaced by Crane under warranty and he said he had no further problems with it. My own experience was generally good, though I suspected some of my running issues were a result of the Crane system. I had a slight miss at 2500-3000 rpm even after a head rebuild and an annoying tendancy for the revs to drop to near 0  momentarily on gear changes which made smooth shifting difficult. I also was experiencing occasional hot start problems, which when it occured made starting impossible for 30-60 minutes, unless I pushed started the car, which was very easy to do. When this occured while Dan (Benz Dr.)and I were in his town, he was sure that the spark was too weak even though I had a new red coil, plugs and wires. He offered to rebuild an 051 for me and posed the question "what will you do if the module breaks down on the road somewhere". He has a distributor calibrating machine in his shop and explained how the different systems that worked on conventional points systems had to be synchronized for the distributor to function properly.
Well I'm happy to report that once I finally got to installing the rebuilt distributor, that my car is running better than before. It has a more pronounced growl to the exhaust note, smoother running at all rpms, and I think the upper speed range is stronger too, though these are hard items to measure and I admit that I'm looking for improvements. Most significant to me was the effect on shifting. The rpms don't drop below idle anymore and this helps smooth out shifts...I no longer try to "blip" the throttle while releasing the clutch.
Mostly I like the idea that I can carry a spare set of points and get myself going if the old ones start acting up. We like to drive the back roads and this can mean we are miles from nowhere and out of cell phone range, so the thought of a ign. module caused breakdown was a concern.
Dan reported that my old dist. was suffering from almost 50 deg. of vacuum advance from improper set-up, though I hadn't been aware of any pinging, so it seems to confirm that the electronic ignition systems can improve performance when things are not set right, but perhaps that is treating the symptom rather than the cause.
I have recently realized that my hot start issue was not module related....it seems that after a highway run and sitting for 15-20 minutes, for some reason which I haven't exactly determined, the engine is flooding and the cure was to disconnect the CSV and hold the throttle wide open. This has worked everytime I've had a hot start issue for the last month. More troubleshooting required.

Any one want to buy a used Crane module  :D
Ricardo
'67 250sl
4 speed

mdsalemi

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2004, 09:52:17 »
Ricardo,

It's all in the setup.  You are more likely to blow points then a module for sure.  But, mine has the Crane and Dan Dr. Benz set up my timing and distributor etc. all very nicely and it runs great.

I remember an old British repair manual that said "Carburetor" is a French word meaning "It's the electrical system, stupid!" and as you found out a rebuilt distributor can make all the difference in the world.


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

n/a

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2004, 23:22:03 »
Interesting...we just put a Crane system in my car and it seems to run a little smoother, but it ran okay to start with. I did have to turn the idle down somewhat, which makes me wonder whether it is running too much advance. But it doesn't ping or knock.
  Does anyone know whether you have to change the ignition setting if you change the car over to a 3.23 axle ring-and-pinion, which I am planning to do?

Benz Dr.

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2004, 09:12:49 »
Richard's car had some rather strange problems. It had little or no spark for starting which is why you could bump start it with just a little push once it was hot. That little bit of extra voltage would be just enough to fire the spark plugs. As far as we both could tell there were no fuel delivery problems, although a CSV can start leaking at any time without warning.

The distributor for this car had the electronic set up but I really don't beleive it was working right. What I did find out was that the pull rod on the vacuum advance cell had been changed and was turned all the way out. There's a small nut which acts as a stop to limit travel on the rod. Normally, it's set up to give about 10 degrees of advance/retard depending on distributor type. When it's set up with the nut all the way to the end it will have about 30 - 40 degrees of travel and cause running problems.
 The 051 distributor should have a total of 30 degrees at 3,000 RPM but should be there before 2,500 RPM. This distributor would of had more like 70 degrees of advance yet it didn't seem to ping. I drove the car and it seemed to be quite strong. My thoughts are the weaker spark slowed down the flame front in the cylinders enough to prevent this.
 The total system I've developed with standard parts ( non electronic ) will give you good performance but it has to be all matched up just like the crane system. They won't work right either if something is done wrong.
On Mike's car the spark was REALLY hot and would jump over 1/2 inch without problem - nice big blue spark with a realy loud SNAP!
That's what you want. No yellow, wimpy, little spark.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

hands_aus

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2004, 06:35:16 »
I wonder what drivers of modern cars with electronic ignition do if and when they have an ignition breakdown.

I have recently (approx 6 months ago) replaced my points with a Pertronix unit. The timing needed adjusting to spec and the air/fuel mixture also needed adjusting.
The car is running great.
However I have the removed points safely tucked away in the spare tyre cover, just in case.

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

graphic66

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2004, 09:29:10 »
On my modern autos with electronic ignition that were not real new I had to carry the spare brain boxes as at any time you could go to start them and have no ignition. One was an 85 Ford F150 with a 351 and my mechanic friend gave me the box and said, "one day you will need this" and of course I did need it. My other was a V8 Dodge motorhome and after the truck experience I grabbed one of the Dodge brain boxes at a junk yard and always kept it with me, sure enough the day came and I was prepared. My advice for the breakerless systems is to buy 2 units and keep one as a backup. Or just leave well enough alone and keep your old tuneup leftovers in your trunk for what if. On the newer vehicles you are at the mercy of a diagnostics technician and when you breakdown you are lost.

Benz Dr.

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2004, 09:33:27 »
That's what I'm talking about. Modern cars have systems that are a complete design for the whole car. The ignition system is set up with all the componets acting as part of the total fuel system.

These add on systems can work well enough but they can fail too. These were very high end cars in their day and there isn't anything that can't be fixed. Part of the fun is trying to make old things work as good as new. Why then do people trust the suspension, brakes, trans,engine,lights etc. but not the ignition? Anyone of these other things can fail and get you killed in the wrong situation. I don't hear much about all these other things which everyone seems to blindly trust, even though they may have far more potential to hurt you or others if they fail.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

A Dalton

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2004, 09:38:17 »
In the yar 2020, you will go to the junk yard to find Rustless, shiny, low miles examples of "Brain-Dead" scrapped autos...
 but, you will also open a Spring/2020 Edition of the  JC Whitney catalog and find you can now purchase an "Engine Management to Point/cond. Conversion Kit " for $79.95... fits most Models......
progress...



Malc

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Re: points vs. electronic ign.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2004, 17:17:11 »
Points are fine, it's just a case of carrying the right tools and failing that a new 5 pence piece and a packet of Rizla cigarette papers, the cardboard cover is just the right thickness for the points gap! :)
Hey I used to ride an old Triumph Tiger Cub with Joe Lucas "prince of darkness" electrics
However things must of improved as my 1986 V8 Land rover has lucas electronic ignition, 120K miles and it's still original.
malc