black engine compartment?

[Cortez-Campos]

I just found a 280 SL model 1970, in anthracite 172 exteior, but with a black engine compartment, the owner said it was original, but I have my doubts.
The car was newly restored, but is the color combo original???


280 SL 1969 anthracite 172, with red inteior.

[Douglas]

It's possible that's the original color combo, but they never had black engine compartments (unless the car was black), so your instincts about a color change are probably right.

Check the data plate in the engine bay to confirm the paint codes.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[louie2]

I am also asking about a black engine compartment.

I have a 1968 280SL that is factory 291 (dark olive) that I had repainted in 2001. All of the body numbers match (hood , hard top etc.), spot welds are correct on fenders and no indication of prior body damage / repair. However my engine compartment and hood latch are flat black and I can not nor could my painter find any indication that sometime in the past the engine compartment was ever repainted.

Anyone else with this paint issue in engine compartment?

[Garry]

Louie and Cortez-Campos,
 the link to the Tech Manual will give you a good insight to the Trunk and Hood color.
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/ChassisBody/Paint

Quote from the Wiki  "The trunk of M-B is actually not black, but a very dark gray. It can be ordered via Mercedes dealerships. Ordering code is 000 986 67 33 - 7164. The "000 986 67 33" is the part number of a one component (not catalized) paint sold by MBAG, and the "7164" is the color code for this deep dark gray. It is semi-gloss. The torsion type spring for the engine hood is (pure) black."

Garry

[john.mancini]

Engine compartments always left the factory the exact same color of the body. They were never blacked out.
John

[66andBlue]

.... They were never blacked out.

That is correct but not completely. The compartment where the air filter sits and the other side near the battery tray - that is, whatever is visible when you peek through the front grill - is painted black.

[114015]

 

Well, Garry, not completely...

Quote from the Wiki  "The trunk of M-B is actually not black, but a very dark gray. It can be ordered via Mercedes dealerships. Ordering code is 000 986 67 33 - 7164. The "000 986 67 33" is the part number of a one component (not catalized) paint sold by MBAG, and the "7164" is the color code for this deep dark gray. It is semi-gloss. The torsion type spring for the engine hood is (pure) black."

Original 230ies and 250ies were not 7164 "tiefdunkelgrau" in their trunk but satin black.
Don't know exactly when the change was made from black to dark grey ...

Black trunk can be found on untouched cars.

However, as others pointed out; engine compartment was always body color, even on very early cars ...

Achim

[Peter van Es]

Achim... please fix the page on the Wiki!

Peter

[Nate]

If it's the '69 280SL with 1999 CLK320 rims (they actually look decent on a W113) that's been on eBay, I suspect the anthracite gray is not the original color and I would almost guarantee the entire nose, front fenders, and hood have all been replaced.  

[Garry]

Now I am confused,  the original post was talking about a 1970 280sl and the wiki I quoted said that the trunk/boot and the underside of the hood/bonnet was 7164 dark grey. Is that wrong?
The wiki also went on to talk about the engine compartment being body color but I didnt quote that part asuming that the original poster would read the whole page in the wiki so what is wrong in the wiki for the 280sl as I didnt think that any 280's were produced with black in the trunk/boot or underside of the bonnet/hood???  Is it a misunderstanding on the terms trunk, boot, bonnet and hood?

[hkollan]

Garry,

I suspect you might have misread your quote from the Wiki, since nowhere in that quote it says that the hood/bonnet was ever painted black or deep gray. But it states that the torsion type spring for the hood it says is pure black, not the hood/bonnet itself.
The hood/bonnet was always painted in the car color. But the torsion spring for the hood was not always black, since it came in two version, either black or with grey cad plated or possibly zinc plated surface. The torsion bar I bought new last year was grey w/ a cad or zinc surface.

[Garry]

Opps, I read the following in the Wiki to be that the underside of the hood is the grey as well, I need to go repaint the underside of my hood!!! I never was happy with it.

Quote from Wiki "The thing about the underside of the bonnet is how many runs in the paint you usually see in original examples (they were surprisingly sloppy in the paint shop in some of the areas of the cars that aren't in full view.) Another area that's supposed to be black that many neglect in restoration is that "splash guard" in front of the battery."  and further on "I also noticed the runs on the underside of the hood and that the front splash guard seems to be painted with a brush (or at least touched up). In fact on some cars the black (dark Grey) paint goes around the corner on to the side where the radiator mounts and on some it doesn't. Also it seems as though the whole car was first painted completely in the color of the exterior and only then painted over with the black" unquote

I just read it as the hood being painted the dark grey! 

[tel76]

The 1968 280sl that i am restoring has a black engine compartment,while the outside of the car has had a colour change sometime in the past,the engine compartment seems to be original.
It is my intention to return the car to its original 728h and as such i am removing the old paint.
In the engine compartment it is painted black over the top of the 728h and appears to have been done at the factory because some of the items painted black could not have been painted at a later date.
The vehicle was delivered into Belgium before going to the US,was it NAJ that wrote that under bonnet(hood) painting ie colour, was done to suit different markets.

[VincentR]

Hi Guys,

As Eric (see last message before mine), I've one internal black engine compartment and one black internal bonnet surface.
In fact, I have to underline that my bonnet was also fitted (original) with 2 soundproofing mats (same design as the ones which are in the door).
As Eric, the black paint (mercedes deep dark grey) in the engine compartment has been made (seems to) very quickly and the thickness of this paint covers the original silver grey of the car but it was very easy to remove it (light thickness).
As regards the underside of the bonnet, the deep dark grey color is original : when I fully retored the car, I removed the 2 pads and came to the primer color which was "cream color" (and not light grey primer as the rest of the car body as we can find it under the rubber coating under the body). I insist the cream color was not one previous finish paint; it was primer.
The pads have been painted at the same time in grey/black.
As I did not find same design of pads (with littles holes) I decided to paint my underside of bonnet without pads but in grey black.

My car is one 280 SL dated 1970 and had never been restored before (I saw that when I made the whole disassembly).
One more detail : no number on bonnet, nor on trunk lid, nor on soft top cover....
He seems that at the end of production they did not continue to make such marking. I've red that one time in one book.
But the number was well marked on the hardtop (I made the complete disassembly of the hard top following the instruction of SLTech press extract).

I hope this information will help.

Best regards.
Vincent R from France.

[Rangerdon]

I am also asking about a black engine compartment.

I have a 1968 280SL that is factory 291 (dark olive) that I had repainted in 2001. All of the body numbers match (hood , hard top etc.), spot welds are correct on fenders and no indication of prior body damage / repair. However my engine compartment and hood latch are flat black and I can not nor could my painter find any indication that sometime in the past the engine compartment was ever repainted.

Anyone else with this paint issue in engine compartment?

I too have this model in dark green and flat black is fine. I am the 2nd owner and knew the 1st. Owned the car for at least 30 years

[Garry]

So the WIKI may be wrong on the painting of the engine bay as well as the underside of the bonnet and my Dark Grey underside of bonnet is probably right after all on my Euro '69 280sl 291H Dark Olive.  Maybe it was just on Euro delivered cars. Rangerdon was your car Euro delivered?

[hkollan]

Hi,

All Pagodas  rolled out from factory the with the engine compartment painted in the exterior color of the car, same goes for both sides of the hood/bonnet. If it's a European or US car is of no significance in this respect.

Sorry Vincent but as I see it most of the info you provide in your posting does make little sense or is just completely wrong.
 Such as no marking of production numbers  on late cars, and padded hood underside being original, black painted hood and engine compartment etc.  The fact that there is no production number on the hood just simply means that it's a replacement hood, as well as the softtop cover, assuming you know where to look.

[VincentR]

Hi Hans,

Even if you think that the bonnet is a replacement one, I can assure you that the sound proofing were original.
I did restore more than one car and my uncle was car body restorer and we check that. Sorry to insist.
What could be convenient is to check if second fit bonnet (after sales starting after EOP - ie end of production) were offering sound proofing pads. As I said there are exactly the same design (but not same dimensions) of the sound proofing in the door (which sere also original).
I will try to investigate in MB in Germany as I have one friend working there in gearbow development; maybe he will be in position help me to get the thruth (which is maybe in between both versions).
As regards, the number of the soft top cover, I don't permit you to have some doubts on my knowledge. I knowperfectly where are made all the marking of the vehicle. For information the soft top cover was never disassembled before. Just for information I made the complete disassembly of the car (engine and gerbox were not disassembled but just pout of the car), so I can pretend to know a little bit. On a another side I assisted one person to restore one 250SL before, so be confident that I know even "just a little bit" these cars.
To conclude, I'm worlking in automitive industry and be sure tha

[VincentR]

Sorry the message has been sent by false handling of the keyboard :

To conclude, I'm worlking in automotive industry and be sure that I know very much that some modifications (not necessarely registred on internal books) were made (even today are made) on the assembly lines processes and parts.
I am talking here about experience and fieldwork and not about the science that we can read in books.

I will keep you informed as soon as I will have comments from my MB German friend.

Best regards.
Vincent.

[tel76]

Hello hkollan,
Would you please inform us why you are so sure that ALL Pagodas left the factory in body colour only, when several people say otherwise.
As a matter of interest the MD of the  company where i worked in 1970 ordered and had delivered a new pagoda and this was also painted black under the bonnet and in the engine bay.A few years later he asked us to change the outside colour,and i can remember that we were very relieved that we did not have to change the under bonnet and engine bay colour,i ended up using that vehicle as my company car, this gave me the interest to take on this project when it came up.

[hkollan]

Hi Vincent,

OK, Since I wasn't present at the end of the production line when every pagoda was produced, I can of course not be 100% certain that what I  believe to be the case is true. It's just that you sometimes get a little tired of hearing people making claims that stuff is original when you strongly believe it to be incorrect information.

 Then again there are some genuine factory modifications that I've seen on MB cars from that era, but that would then normally be documented on the production/data card for that specific car as a special production order of some kind. For the W100 this was rather common,
on the pagodas I doubt that they where there where many special orders like that, but they do probably exist.

As I'm sure you know, the markings of the hood, Soft-top cover, Hardtops  etc. was an essential aid in the production process to make sure that the correct, custom fitted panels/items, ended up on the matching again car after being prepared/painted separately. Early cars and late cars had these markings, and I see no way why they would skip that crucial part of the process for one or more cars. It just does not make sense.
If the black paint on your car is original, then one would assume there is a note for that in the data-card. If you could provide the data-card
showing these modifications documented, that would of course be of great interest.

From your description it appears that the engine compartment had the silver paint and clear coat paint applied before it was painted black.
If this was a special order, why would they first paint it silver before painting it black?

The only reason I think it's worth discussing this, is to ensure that if someone is looking for info on how these cars are made and what is original and what is not, they should be able to trust the WIKI information found on this site.

Best regards

Hans

[VincentR]

Hi Hans,

I've alreday sent the questions to my friend in Germany (working in MB Stuttgart Plant).
Maybe your are right, we will see, and maybe you are only partially right.
I don't remember where, but I red in one books (Meredith? I don't remerber) or on one internet site, that at the end of production, the number on aluminium body part were not done anymore : to be confirmed.
As regards the sound and vibration mats, I'm absolutely sure that they are originally placed on the bonnet interior. But maybe the bonnet is not first mounting and is an aftersales : I also sent the question to my friend.
Unfortunately, I've not taken a picture before restoring my bonnet. After restoration I decided not to put 2 mats because I did not find the exact design of mats and I was not sure that they will be sticked all the lifetime of car due to heat of engine. But I will try to look in my notes because I mesured the exact position of that 2 mats on the bonnet before restoring it. I will inform you in that case.
As regards the plant document of my car (I obtained the paper from my friend, there is no special information on one special customer order). The car has matching numbers (chassis, engine, gear box, rear axle and hard top).


Best regards.
Vincent R.

[VincentR]

Hi again Hans,

Sorry to write again, but I forgot to inform you that the down fixing plate of the gearbox is also supposed to have the number duly marked on it (see on motoring site). On my car (and I can assure you that the plate is the original one) there is no number.
So we have to wait now for the information given by MB.

Best regards.
Vincent R.

[seattle_Jerry]

Here's my 2 cents worth as someone in manufacturing and painting (not cars).
Under normal circumstances there is no reason why they would paint the engine compartment a different color than the rest of the body it is attached to. For pure efficiency and keeping production costs at a minimum, they would paint it all the same color at the same time. The customer isn't going to pay extra for a black engine compartment, so why add the additional manufacturing step?

When it could have been painted black is if during the build up they scratched or otherwise damaged the engine compartment after it had been painted. Getting the respray to match would be more problematic than just using a premixed black that they already had for behind the grill...plus it was a process already set up and ready to go.

[ljg]

I own a true 14,000 mile 1971 280 SL.  The engine compartment finish is clearly original and painted in body color.
LJG

[Benz Dr.]

It is generally agreed that engine bay is the same colour as the body. There may be exceptions but I know of none nor have I seen any. I've seen lots of black engine bays but none of them were original.
I doubt that any sound deadening material was applied to the bottom of the hood on factory production cars. It's more than possible that a deralership could have done that by request of the owner. These are 40 year old cars and lots of things could have been done to them.

 I am however, completely sure that not all cars had the blacked out areas behind the grill. I had an early ' 64 at my place last year and it had no such treatment. This is  a car that is totally original. Singnal red with black interior and 4 speed trans. It was delivered new to El Salvador and has always been in the same family. It has about 35,000 miles on it.
The trim and every item on the car has never been off or touched.
 The next time it's back in I'm going to do a total photo documentaion on the car. There are details on this car that I've never seen because original cars are very rare - it's the first and possibly only one I'll ever see.
Engine compart ment was red like the rest of the car but there was no blacked out areas in the engine bay. What I did find interesting was the area around the fire wall insulation where the heater core pipe and grommet sits was blacked out. This was the only area in the engine back that had this treatment. It was also blacked out around the defrost ducts at the base of the wind shield which is correct.

[114015]

Dan,

Would love to see these pictures!

Always highly interested in totally untouched early SLs

Thaks a lot in advance.

Achim

[VincentR]

Hi Guys,

I finally got the answer from the person I know in MB Germany.
It seems that the internal part of the bonnet has never been painted in black (dark grey) on the 280 SL.
So that is meaning that my bonnet is one aftersale bonnet which was originally fitted with soundpads and primered in black. When it was changed on my car, they took the decision to only paint it externally and not in the internal side.
As it was black when I bought that car, I decided during my restoration to paint it black (i did not know the SL113 site at that time). So I suppose I'm the only one to have one internal black bonnet in the world....
Hope this will help for fuure restorers.
BVest regards.
Vincent R (France).