Author Topic: Alternatives to recommended coolant  (Read 1771 times)

thelews

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Alternatives to recommended coolant
« on: August 08, 2024, 00:54:36 »
Why use Glycol based coolant if you don't need antifreeze, car always in above freezing conditions?  I've used RO water and NoRosion in all my vintage water-cooled cars with satisfaction for years.  I will be draining and filling three cars soon with fresh NoRosion and RO water after the recommended 5 years; I freshen it annually with the required dose of NoRosion.  Best part, aside from great cooling and protection, drain it right out the door, nothing harmful to the environment.

Here's a FAQ on the product  https://www.norosion.com/tech_coolant.htm

The developer of the product specializes in coolant for large, multimillion dollar engines, think industrial and heavy commercial.  He's a vintage car guy and put a product out to address vintage car cooling systems and the type of driving they typically experience.  You can email him and he responds.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2024, 14:06:10 »
Why use Glycol based coolant...

Well for many reasons.

Makes one think why every single manufacture of ICE engines on earth supplies them with a glycol coolant.

Not everyone can guarantee, at all times, that the car will be above freezing. Even in parts of Florida, it can get below freezing in the winter. It's a bit of insurance to guarantee yourself you will NOT have problems if you encounter unexpected freezing. Even in a climate controlled garage like you may have, catastrophic weather conditions can cause power failures which will cause heat to go out. Don't argue this topic: it can and has happened repeatedly all over the country and world. I remember just a few winters ago, they were saying that there was snow, and it had snowed in all 50 states, and snow was ON THE GROUND in all 50 states. You cannot predict the weather patterns but you prepare for them.

The only thing you have done with your concoction of RO water and No-Rosion is create your own coolant blend, one that will freeze. The No-Rosion is simply the additive package found in glycol based coolants.

RO water is generally acknowledged to be somewhat "corrosive" because it has an affinity to want to bond with something. This is fairly well known, and the use of it in a car's cooling system with or without a glycol anti-freeze is generally not recommended. There's plenty of information on this for anyone wanting to research it. Plumbers know that you don't use metal pipes or tubes with RO water--only plastic for that reason. I'm a believer in the experts. If they tell me that RO water exhibits some corrosive tendencies, then I'll believe them. https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/984/reverse-osmosis-corrosion-ro-corrosion

De-ionized water is what's recommended all over, and exactly what the manufacturers use when you buy premix coolant. Tap water is available everywhere. So is steam distilled water, and RO water can be had in many places including many people's kitchens if they have an RO system. So with all these different kinds of water available, ask yourself why do the manufacturer's choose de-ionized? I'm not a chemist but they indeed employ chemists who have concluded that de-ionized water is best. I'm not going to question them.

Let's talk cost. Of all the things on a Pagoda this isn't one to break the bank. You need about 2.5 gallons of coolant. The premixed stuff 50/50 is less than $20/gallon. That's the G-48 or the G-05. If you want to mix your own, from concentrate, that is a few dollars more, maybe $24. So you are looking at a $50 fill with pre-mix, somewhat less if you mix your own. Why play chemist with additives?

I think I'll stick with glycol based coolant along with the other 288 million + cars on the road in the USA, and the one(s) recommended for my vehicles.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

mdsalemi

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2024, 15:06:39 »
To each his own...Water is a better coolant than glycol...Pebble Beach...Nethercutt and Leno collections

Yes, to each their own.

Yes, water is factually a better conductor of heat than glycol based coolants. But not everyone can guarantee when and where there car will be. It does not snow here in central NC, except when it does. It doesn't get below freezing for very long, except when it does. I'm not taking any chances. However, if your car operates fine in most of its conditions, (mine operates fine in stop and go in the heat of summer) is running it at any lower an operating temperature any better?

Just because Pebble Beach entrants do something doesn't mean that it's right for our cars, many of which are used regularly. I used to do a lot of work with the Concours of America, and one of the major sponsors there did a lot of restoration on pre-war classics. (Duesenberg, etc.) He tended to fuel them with AVGAS 100--ultra high octane aviation fuel. I don't think I'd want to use that in my Pagoda, and I certainly wouldn't want to pay the price.

The Nethercutt and Leno collections, nice though they are, are mainly museums of functioning cars, both in California. These are not normal cars owned by normal people like us, who take them out regularly. Both collections are in California locations (Sylmar and Burbank) that don't really match the rest of the country's climate. If it drops even into the mid 30s there, it's headline news. So what THEY do doesn't translate to what others should do in other parts of the country with normal cars.

So, I'm going to stick with recommended glycol based coolants. I'm not going to play chemist with one of the many coolant additive packages and concoct my own coolant. There's enough things to worry about on a Pagoda.

But, as our cars are all privately owned, each owner can do what they choose.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Jack the Knife

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2024, 17:22:32 »

Just because Pebble Beach entrants do something doesn't mean that it's right for our cars, many of which are used regularly. I used to do a lot of work with the Concours of America, and one of the major sponsors there did a lot of restoration on pre-war classics. (Duesenberg, etc.) He tended to fuel them with AVGAS 100--ultra high octane aviation fuel. I don't think I'd want to use that in my Pagoda, and I certainly wouldn't want to pay the price.

Avgas is also leaded. His thinking could be that he is using the fuel more "intended" for cars of the era. I would think that would appeal to one like you.
1964 230SL
2015 G550

zoegrlh

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2024, 11:53:53 »
Oh, so this topic is now headed to the gas(fuel) side. Well I use leaded regular fuel. No way with the corn additive fuels.
Robert Hyatt
Williamsburg, VA.

W113, 1970 280SL, Red leather 242 on Silver Gray Met. 180, 4-speed stick, Euro spec, restored
R172 2012 SLK350, Black Premium leather 801 on Mars Red 590, 7-speed auto
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66andBlue

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2024, 19:57:51 »
"Alternatives to recommended coolant" ?
The best alternative is to use no coolant at all -> back to the air-cooled engines.  :D

Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

wwheeler

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2024, 23:57:39 »
Alfred always thinks out of the box!
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Benz Dr.

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2024, 06:10:30 »
"Alternatives to recommended coolant" ?
The best alternative is to use no coolant at all -> back to the air-cooled engines.  :D

Yes, but they do use coolant. It's called oil.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
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1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
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mdsalemi

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2024, 10:30:27 »
Avgas is also leaded. His thinking could be that he is using the fuel more "intended" for cars of the era. I would think that would appeal to one like you.

His thinking is it lasts longer without going stale; perfect for trailer queens. Lead and octane a bonus. True? I don’t know. Maybe so…

On my Pagoda, I don’t need the lead nor the octane of avgas. Premium unleaded E10 automotive fuel has worked fine for 24 years and 25k miles +.

(For those so curious drive your Pagoda up to the pumps at your local airport and let me know how that works out for you. 😉)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2024, 10:35:27 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

wwheeler

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2024, 18:26:34 »
I use the 100LL (AVGAS) and can get it very easily at a nearby Heliport - $6/gallon when I bring in the 5 gal jugs. I don't think the aviation sites will pump directly into you car. Only into certified fuel handling jugs.

Yes, totally different from pump gas and last years, not months. The much faster evaporation rate of the 100LL alone is amazingly different. Doesn't have the horrible smell pump gas has either. The octane means I never have to worry about detonation. The lead isn't really needed and actually will foul the plugs sooner than pump gas. Still not an issue for my driving habits. 

I typically drive every couple of weeks for about an hour when the weather is nice. So this suits me fine and insignificantly more expensive overall. Not for everybody I understand but not for just trailer queens. For some, pumps gas is just fine. No argument.

Dr. Benz is right - oil acts as a coolant and even with water cooler engines!   
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

mdsalemi

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2024, 13:26:00 »
Here is a link about that aviation fuel in automobiles. Will answer a lot of questions that some people might have. More importantly, if you scroll down, there are links to dozens of other fuel related questions that may prove useful to the inquisitive.

https://classicmotorsports.com/articles/fuel-facts-why-not-avgas-your-car/
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2024, 13:54:16 »
some interesting testimonials.  And, fwiw, I just changed out my NoRosion on three cars, including the 113, after 5 years (with refreshments annually) and it came out practically as clear and clean as it went in.  My Jag E-type was particularly nasty when I first switched it over in 2019 shortly after I got it, drained the antifreeze, flushed with NoRo flush, flushed a couple of times more with water and then refilled with NoRo.  This time, came out clean as a whistle.

https://www.norosion.com/testimonials.htm
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

TJMart

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Re: Alternatives to recommended coolant
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2024, 18:15:23 »
some interesting testimonials.  And, fwiw, I just changed out my NoRosion on three cars, including the 113, after 5 years (with refreshments annually) and it came out practically as clear and clean as it went in.  My Jag E-type was particularly nasty when I first switched it over in 2019 shortly after I got it, drained the antifreeze, flushed with NoRo flush, flushed a couple of times more with water and then refilled with NoRo.  This time, came out clean as a whistle.

https://www.norosion.com/testimonials.htm

Hey John,

Thanks for the tip and link. Looks like a great product. Definitely will put it in my Pagoda!

Tony
Tony
1970 280SL, 4 Speed