Author Topic: Valve springs  (Read 1011 times)

russelljones48

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Valve springs
« on: April 19, 2024, 17:52:31 »
I'm looking for replacement innner and outer valve springs.  Does anyone have a recommendation for the specific springs (perhaps better steel or materials) as well as a supplier?

mdsalemi

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2024, 15:23:22 »
OK, Russell, with all those cricket sounds you hear, I'll bite.

Understand I'm not a student of engine rebuilding and have none of the knowledge of some of our experts here, not in any order, such as Dr. Benz (Dan Caron); JA17 (Joe Alexander) or Stickandrudderman (Colin Ferns). But I suspect that any of those sources, along with others such as [once again] Mike Elias of Metric Motors in California, Gernold Nisius of SL Tech in Maine along with a host of others in UK and Germany might be able to open a dialog with you to answer your questions.

Years ago we had a hyped up 1966 Austin Mini Cooper S that had quite a few engine modifications. The prior owners neglected one essential item in the valve train: the rocker arms. Despite changing the camshaft, pistons, etc. he had left the original pressed steel rockers and once we got that engine tuned to optimal with proper carburetors, we started breaking these rocker arms. At that time, BMC did make upgrade kits for this A series 1275 engine, and we bought a set of forged rocker arms and problem solved. The bottom line on this is that, I believe, the entire valve train works together as a system. If you change one thing, you may need to change everything and "make it all match" In the case of the old Cooper, the goal was more HP and higher RPM. This was achieved...but it took some broken rocker arms to figure it all out, along with removing the leaky Weber 42DCOE and replacing it with 2 x 1.5" SU Carbs ex-MGB. These were pre internet days and there was a lot of trial and error. Tuning the SUs required a large set of needles and doing ¼ mile acceleration runs on a stretch of deserted highway.

You asked about "better steel" which infers that the OEM steel and valve springs are somehow inferior? I personally have not heard of (which doesn't mean a lot other than I've had my ears here for 20+ years) anyone trying to modify the valve train or head; usually they are trying to get it "back to right" which may require new valves, new springs, decking the head and other machine shop work. When my own engine was rebuilt by Metric 20 years ago, they found a small crack that needed welding.

In the case of our old Cooper, and also in the case of many American cars/engines, people are trying to get more HP and often greater RPM out of the engine without the engine self-destructing. In our Pagoda case, almost laughably, many people are trying to LOWER the RPMs, not raise them. At highway speeds in my Pagoda, I'm often turning a head numbing and deafening 4,000 RPM. Those with an overdrive 5 speed laugh at me as they turn 2,700 or so at the same speed. I try to keep mine to 4K on the highway. When all else is OK (i.e. my exhaust system isn't falling off!) my Pagoda has repeatedly cruised at 3500-4000 RPM all day as I've driven to events over the past 20 years.

I have not directly answered your question. But I hope one of the following happens:

1. I have a lot of information wrong, and those mentioned or other experts will come and correct my information and in the same response, answer yours.

2. I have a lot of information right, or directionally so, and those same experts will also weigh in here and again, in the process, answer your question(s).

3. I've given you some additional resources to try and contact directly.

In the spirit of these forums, do indeed report back with any findings you discover!  Good luck!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2024, 16:44:17 »
Metrix won't sell parts anymore - or so they say. I hardly maters, valve springs are readily available.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
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1981  300SD
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1965  230SL
1967 250SL
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russelljones48

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2024, 18:20:29 »
So, it's only my first 230SL rodeo and I guess I should elaborate.  With the proliferation of poor quality replacement parts (and outright forgeries).   I was asking for references and experinces for replacemnt springs (other than from MB direct) that have both checked out dimensionally (height, weight, diameter, spring pressure, etc.) but have withstood many miles of operation without breakage or failure.  My allusion to metallurgical changes is based on my experience with other modern automotive components; castings, forgings, coatings etc. that have improved dramatically in the last few decades.   

I'm simply hoping for some references by brand or supplier for OEM spec 230SL springs..  It's nice to know that they are readily available but so is potential junk so I was hoping for specifics.

mdsalemi

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2024, 18:52:34 »
Forgeries are one thing, poor quality is another. A forgery is one manufacturer posing as another, a counterfeit as it were. In some cases the product may exceed the original in quality, and the counterfeit is because of a brand name. In other cases it may simply be a cheap product or part.

As Dan Caron pointed out, valve springs are readily available.

The Classic Center offers a discount to club members, usually.
FCP Euro lists OEM 1100530120 at $9.89 each. I believe that's the outer spring.
Mercedes Benz Parts Store .com has the same for $9.00 each, OEM Genuine.

I don't know if that is one of the springs you are looking for, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a "bank breaker" in price, as OEM. I personally wouldn't try some 3rd party brand considering all the labor going into an engine rebuild. Use the OEM and you are probably as guaranteed as you are going to get on quality. That's my opinion.

Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2024, 19:47:12 »
I would only buy engine parts from a reputable, specialized parts seller. When I check SLS, which to me is in that category, they list inner springs for the 230 SL at EUR 34 a piece, and outer for EUR 30 a piece. So, quite a bit more than the US sources quoted by Michael. So, at that point, I would dig a bit deeper given these price differences, and maybe give one or two of the suppliers a call to ask about what they are offering. Lastly, of course you can hardly go wrong with buying them from Mercedes, and I would check into their pricing as well. I doubt you will find 'significantly improved over original spec' anywhere, at least I've never heard of engine parts for the W113 being offered claiming they are much improved over the original specs.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
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Pawel66

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2024, 20:08:31 »
For 230SL at Mercedes dealers, springs

Inner A 180 053 10 22, EUR 55 including VAT tax 23%
   
Outer A 108 053 02 20, EUR 47 including VAT tax 23%
Pawel

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russelljones48

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2024, 22:59:18 »
I can only find the springs (inner and outer) from European sources like the SL Shop at close to the prices cited here.   Mike, the normal sources here (FCP and others) or  do not seem to have the springs - neither does MBUSA (classic or not)...    Bud's Benz in Atlanta does list the inner and outer for about $30 for the pair..  I'll call them tomorrow...   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 23:05:25 by russelljones48 »

mdsalemi

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2024, 23:20:33 »
After you make a few calls to USA sources don’t hesitate to contact some in UK and Germany.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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MikeSimon

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2024, 17:12:53 »
Curious: Why are you looking for replacement springs? Just because they are old and you think they should be replaced?
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russelljones48

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2024, 14:55:31 »
Simple answer, yes.  Both my mechanic and my engine/head rebuilder recommend that I replace 50+ year old - 100,000 mile springs.  Having rebuilt heads myself it's been my experience that metal fatigue can lead to broken springs and broken springs can lead to more serious problems.  Here's a quote from a boat racer "We run a drag boat.....and we test our springs after every pass. I can promise that testing and catching springs that have gone away will help you keep your enging program alive. I was watching NHRA and Morgan was asked what happened on one of his passes and he showed us a broken valve spring that did not even make it one run. We consider valve springs a maintenance item and always have an extra set on hand and change them out as necessary. You should at least check your lash, and valve spring presssures after each race, especially if you are running 80-to-100 laps." 

Now this is, admittedly, an extreme case, but it's an example that, to me, indicates that my springs should be replaced.   Mercedes makes good parts but nothing lasts forever..  I specialized in cheap SBC's (as a younger man) and always replaced the valve springs for each rebuild. 

mdsalemi

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2024, 18:27:13 »
The story about the NHRA boat isn't really applicable, just like true racing engines and how long parts last inside them don't really apply to street engines and our Pagoda engines.

There are a handful of firms around the world that specialize in Mercedes engine rebuilding. That's Metric Motors in the California, and also Noel's in Florida. (There are a few places in UK, and probably some in Europe but I'm not there so don't follow that as closely.) Noel's used to advertise quite a bit 20 years ago in magazines such as The Star. http://noels.com/  However, when advertising disappears and "presence" disappears, one has to wonder how the business is going. A few years ago I called them, Noel answered the phone and said they are still in business...but I don't know anyone who has used them. Their website hasn't changed in years, and they don't list the M127-M130s in their inventory. They claim to be the largest remanufacturer of Mercedes engines in the US, "primarily supplying Mercedes dealers, and building the latest engines, the new twin-turbo V12, AMG 5.5's, DOHC 3.5 and 5.5's, and the new BLUETEC V6."

Now back to valve springs: if you go to the Metric website, https://mercedesengines.net and look at the page on the M127 and M129 long blocks https://mercedesengines.net/230sl-250sl/ you will note easily, that valve springs (among a lot of other parts, but those are not part of your question) are replaced with NEW in a rebuild.

So, if you are rebuilding your head, there's no issue in changing the springs, along with the valves, guides, rocker arms, etc.

If you are doing it yourself or having someone else do it, just get the parts and do it! They may be more money than you are thinking or want to spend (like everything else) but it's the right thing to do.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

russelljones48

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2024, 16:07:19 »
I've ordered thru Bud's and they are either MB parts or sourced through a MB dealership..  Price is quite resonable but neither has enough stock so it will be week or 2.. 

mdsalemi

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Re: Valve springs
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2024, 16:53:08 »
I've ordered thru Bud's and they are either MB parts or sourced through a MB dealership..  Price is quite resonable but neither has enough stock so it will be week or 2..

You make me laugh. The last couple of times our Fords have been in for one thing or another, I'd say two weeks is a reasonable time, as no parts are stocked anywhere. I'm still waiting on two (albeit minor) recalls on cars that have been outstanding for more than six months. No parts.

Two weeks? That's a win!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid