Author Topic: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild  (Read 11779 times)

Charles 230SL

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Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« on: February 16, 2022, 13:50:52 »
hello all,
I've noticed over the past several months that I've got antifreeze dripping from the vent tube on my pancake style (brass) reservoir, indicating possible over pressurization.  I've also noticed some antifreeze residue stains on the sparkplug side of the block where it appears the head gasket has started leaking. The head was rebuilt before I bought the car but the engine lower-end has never been out of the car. I’m really disappointed that I’ll be pulling the engine for a rebuild.

I've heard nothing but good things about Metric Motors and I'd like them to do the machine work and rebuild. I am however concerned about logistics - I live 1 hour south of Atlanta, Georgia and I'm concerned shipping will be costly to Metric’s location in Canoga Park, CA. Has anyone in this Group shipped an engine to/from Metric Motors from this far east that can give me an idea of costs and how to handle shipping? Thanks in advance, Charles

Pawel66

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2022, 14:44:36 »
Just an amateur question: why engine rebuild if you only may have a head gasket issue?
Pawel

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wjsvb

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2022, 15:02:45 »
I often use Freightquote for shipping.  Go on their site and it should be clear what to do . Quotations are free, no obligation. You'll have to scare up a good pallet or crate, secure the block to it carefully and wrap it with shrink-wrap.  If you need more assistance, PM me and we can talk.
jon

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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2022, 15:05:08 »
thanks Jon
I often use Freightquote for shipping.  Go on their site and it should be clear what to do . Quotations are free, no obligation. You'll have to scare up a good pallet or crate, secure the block to it carefully and wrap it with shrink-wrap.  If you need more assistance, PM me and we can talk.

Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2022, 15:22:54 »
Just an amateur question: why engine rebuild if you only may have a head gasket issue?
The thrust/end play on the crankshaft is well out of tolerance. The odometer shows 79,953 miles which I assume is actually 179,953 miles.  I could pull the head and replace the head gasket but if I go that far, I feel I may as well just pull the engine. Again, I’m really disappointed - the engine runs beautifully and it keeps the oil pressure gauge pegged at all times.


mdsalemi

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2022, 15:54:08 »
Charles,

A call to Mike Elias at Metric should reveal his best experiences for shipping engines in and out, including the do's and don'ts. Remember, with the exception of the local trade every engine he rebuilds has to come in and go out, usually by truck. He's been doing this for so long, he'll tell you what works and what does not.

While you can "strap it to a skid", I'd prefer something a bit more protective; that is, a crate. I've made plenty of them and also had them made when I was in the computer business. While it used to be pretty cheap, that was when a 2x4 was $2 and a sheet of 7/16" OSB was $7.50. Times have changed. I'd still build a crate. Your engine is worth quite a bit of money, and even more once rebuilt, so the best protection is a proper crate. They are pretty easy to build with simple tools. There are these devices you can place inside the crate called a "Tip and Tell" as well as a "Shockwatch"; they will tell you upon arrival (the recipient has to know to check their status upon arrival) whether the freight was mishandled.

I once had a 3,000 pound laser plotter crated in Berlin and shipped to Minneapolis. It had fallen over and was damaged. I did not have these devices in the crate, but the two forklift holes in the middle of one of the sides of the crate was all that the Delta Airlines Freight adjuster needed to see before they issued us a full refund.

Even some strapping supplies and materials are not that costly these days with Amazon. And yes, I'd protect said engine with shrink wrap which is essentially oversized rolls of Saran Wrap or something quite close; it's PE film.

Once you get the engine in the crate or skid, you need reasonably precise measurements/dimensions, as well as weight. Be sure you have the ability to get that.

You generally won't take your crate or "engine on a skid" to the post office or UPS; it will go by truck. More specifically, what is called in the industry LTL (less than load) freight. Yes you can use freight quote or you can go direct to one of the major and reliable carriers, such as R&L, ABF Freight, Old Dominion, etc. Most of the LTL shippers expect to pickup at a commercial (non-residential) location. Sometimes the massive tractor trailers are banned in residential neighborhoods, or simply cannot navigate the streets. Also, and this is fairly important: do you need a lift gate? If you are at a residence, probably yes unless you have hired a few muscle men to lift the engine onto the back of a trailer! If on a commercial loading dock, no lift gate required. This is important since if you need one you'll pay extra, sometimes a charge of up to $125. Moreover just because you request and pay for this doesn't mean that they'll actually show up with one, or one that works. Been there and done that over the decades...

Don't even THINK of sending this out without full insurance; what that means is enough to cover replacement.

You'll be quite happy with the results of Metric Motors. They don't "fix" poorly performing engines; they apply the same consistent set of measurement and rebuilding protocols to all engines, ensuring a consistent product out the door.
Michael Salemi
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2022, 15:57:53 »
I'm with Pawell on this - I would install a new head gasket before pulling and shipping etc the engine, since it is running so well without any other issues. Last year I replaced both heads + gaskets on my Bronco and, although it was a bit of a job, it does not compare to having to pull the entire engine, much less shipping it across country and going through the expense of a Metric Motors rebuild. That used to run around $5,500 but I am curious about the cost these days. While a head gasket and related materials/bolts and whatnot should be no more than a few hundred if you can do the work yourself, and not that much more if you have it done at a good shop. Just my 2 cents, you can always pull the engine later if it's really necessary.
Cees Klumper
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2022, 16:30:40 »
Full oil pressure doesn't indicate rebuild time. Have you competed a compression test? Re-torqued the head?

I've seen seeping on the spark plug side on freshly rebuilt engines. 190SL's often do that and then they stop leaking after a while so seeping is of no major consequence. 
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Vander

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2022, 16:53:03 »
I agree that there are more steps and you need to do more diag before just pulling the motor and shipping it out.

I have used FedEx Freight before (online, not local store).

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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2022, 17:27:32 »
wow, thanks for all the quick responses!
Full oil pressure doesn't indicate rebuild time. Have you competed a compression test? Re-torqued the head? I've seen seeping on the spark plug side on freshly rebuilt engines. 190SL's often do that and then they stop leaking after a while so seeping is of no major consequence.

I've not done a compression check yet. I re-torqued the head 14,465 miles ago with no issues (yes I know it should be done every 12,000 miles). What concerns me most is the seeping antifreeze coupled with pressurizing of the coolant reservoir. I've seen leaking/blown head gaskets pressurize the water jackets and force coolant out the reservoir - which is what I'm seeing. As much as I wish it would, I don't think re-torqueing the head will remedy a leaking head gasket. I will check compression on the cylinders as soon as I get a chance.

mdsalemi

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2022, 18:01:33 »
I'm with Pawell on this - I would install a new head gasket before pulling and shipping etc the engine, since it is running so well without any other issues. Last year I replaced both heads + gaskets on my Bronco and, although it was a bit of a job, it does not compare to having to pull the entire engine, much less shipping it across country and going through the expense of a Metric Motors rebuild. That used to run around $5,500 but I am curious about the cost these days. While a head gasket and related materials/bolts and whatnot should be no more than a few hundred if you can do the work yourself, and not that much more if you have it done at a good shop. Just my 2 cents, you can always pull the engine later if it's really necessary.

Yes take the sound advice here and change the head gasket first. A great idea and a fraction of the cost and trouble of a rebuild.
Long block rebuilds at retail now are quite a bit more than $5,500...more like $9,850 plus some additional charges if certain parts are not worthy. That's the long block, and head work is extra...
Yeah the full rebuild doesn't sound like the first step at this time...

...but if it is, Metric arranges for transportation...again a call to them before you ship anything is well worth the time.
Michael Salemi
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2022, 18:20:17 »
wow, thanks for all the quick responses!
I've not done a compression check yet. I re-torqued the head 14,465 miles ago with no issues (yes I know it should be done every 12,000 miles). What concerns me most is the seeping antifreeze coupled with pressurizing of the coolant reservoir. I've seen leaking/blown head gaskets pressurize the water jackets and force coolant out the reservoir - which is what I'm seeing. As much as I wish it would, I don't think re-torqueing the head will remedy a leaking head gasket. I will check compression on the cylinders as soon as I get a chance.

You can get a test done to see if any combustion gases are in the coolant. A bit of pressure is normal - maybe 10 PSI. Anything above the pressure of your rad cap and it will release some coolant.
Try a new rad cap. They wear out over time.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2022, 19:41:05 »
Yes take the sound advice here and change the head gasket first. A great idea and a fraction of the cost and trouble of a rebuild...
Well, you guys have about talked me out of pulling the engine. Since the head was rebuilt (about 30,000 miles ago) I do wonder why the head gasket started leaking so soon. I've personally only put 29,000 pampered miles on it. Maybe I'm overreacting but those runs down the side of the block are disconcerting...but first things first, I'll retorque the head and check the compression. The radiator/reservoir cap is only 7 years old but I'll replace it.   




Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2022, 22:03:07 »
Odds are it's not your rad cap. Re-torque your head and see if that helps. Was there ever a time where it was over heated? Look and see if there are any fine bubbles at the head gasket parting surface with the engine running and fully warmed. Bubbles would indicate compression gasses escaping which could mean a warped head.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

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1981  300SD
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2022, 01:29:19 »
Odds are it's not your rad cap. Re-torque your head and see if that helps. Was there ever a time where it was over heated? Look and see if there are any fine bubbles at the head gasket parting surface with the engine running and fully warmed. Bubbles would indicate compression gasses escaping which could mean a warped head.

I've never over heated the engine in the 10 years/29,000 miles I've had the car, certainly not enough to warp the head. I plan to re-torque the head over the weekend.

I took the car out for a spirited drive this afternoon and got it up to operating temperature. I then checked whether there were bubbles at the block/head mating surface, and found none.  Its been several years ago but seems the last time I re-torqued the head there was one bolt that wouldn't take the required 65 ft-lb torque. Don't head-bolts stretch each time they're torqued? The head bolts on my early M127 engine may very well be the original ones, so I'm thinking about replacing them. Am I the only one who finds it daunting to re-torque head bolts every 12,000 miles??

wjsvb

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2022, 02:37:46 »
Michael: Well put on shipping!  The world of LTL shipping is fairly straightforward if you follow their conventions.  If one would rather do it some other way, don't!
jon

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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2022, 12:29:04 »
Charles, A call to Mike Elias at Metric should reveal his best experiences for shipping engines in and out, including the do's and don'ts. Remember, with the exception of the local trade every engine he rebuilds has to come in and go out, usually by truck. He's been doing this for so long, he'll tell you what works and what does not.
thanks Michael, yes, I spoke with Mike Elias yesterday and he explained how they ship. Sounds like they have a preferred LTL shipper and the price wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2022, 17:19:38 »

I've never over heated the engine in the 10 years/29,000 miles I've had the car, certainly not enough to warp the head. I plan to re-torque the head over the weekend.

I took the car out for a spirited drive this afternoon and got it up to operating temperature. I then checked whether there were bubbles at the block/head mating surface, and found none.  Its been several years ago but seems the last time I re-torqued the head there was one bolt that wouldn't take the required 65 ft-lb torque. Don't head-bolts stretch each time they're torqued? The head bolts on my early M127 engine may very well be the original ones, so I'm thinking about replacing them. Am I the only one who finds it daunting to re-torque head bolts every 12,000 miles??

This type of head bolt won't stretch. The head gasket will compress slightly over time but not very much which is why you are asked to re-torque the head bolts.   
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
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Pinder

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2022, 02:19:36 »
Maybe retorque at 5lbs over spec. what have you got to lose at this point.
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2022, 05:24:26 »
Maybe retorque at 5lbs over spec. what have you got to lose at this point.

That's OK but don't go any higher.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
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1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2022, 01:22:05 »
yesterday I re-torqued the (14) head bolts and adjusted the valves. I went just a tad over 65 ft-lbs on the head bolts.
I did find several exhaust valves a little too tight; .005 -.007 as opposed to .008.  I drove the car a bit over 100 miles today and as always, it ran beautifully. I'll be on the lookout for any dried antifreeze runs on the side of the block.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2022, 01:56:32 »
Hope its fixed.
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2022, 06:37:03 »
yesterday I re-torqued the (14) head bolts and adjusted the valves. I went just a tad over 65 ft-lbs on the head bolts.
I did find several exhaust valves a little too tight; .005 -.007 as opposed to .008.  I drove the car a bit over 100 miles today and as always, it ran beautifully. I'll be on the lookout for any dried antifreeze runs on the side of the block.

I set valve lash to .003'' intake and .007'' exhaust  So your .007" was probably OK. .005'' would be a bit on the tight side.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 14:33:11 »
Well, after a real close inspection of the thermo-time switch pod, I discovered that the bolt that secures the pod to the cylinder head has been seeping a bit of antifreeze. The antifreeze is being blown off the bottom of the pod and thence onto the side of the block where it meets the head. The antifreeze stains are between the fuel injection pump and the block and I was just barely able to get a dental-mirror view of the bottom of the pod. The white residue stains on the block made it appear exactly as though the seepage was coming from the head gasket.

As far as coolant reservoir over-pressurization from the alleged leaking head gasket, I cleaned the rubber seal on the reservoir cap, reseated it several times, and that resolved the leak from the reservoir.   

gosh, talk about overreacting - I was prepared to pull the engine! but you guys already know I don't always play with a full deck..,..  ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 15:30:43 by Charles 230SL »

Cees Klumper

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2022, 00:57:37 »
I don't know Charles, at this stage I'd go ahead and pull the engine, just for good measure!  ;)
Cees Klumper
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2022, 01:29:19 »
I don't know Charles, at this stage I'd go ahead and pull the engine, just for good measure!  ;)
  yeah, you're right Cees - I could use a good Summer project! (just kidding) 8)

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2022, 14:54:16 »
this response is a little late in this post,  i had a seeping head gasket on my 66,   replaced it with a new one i bought from Metric Motors.  no more leaking.

i also recommend metric for a motor rebuild, they rebuilt mine and  many restorers send the motors to metric for rebuild.
Matt
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2022, 15:52:14 »
..i also recommend metric for a motor rebuild, they rebuilt mine and  many restorers send the motors to metric for rebuild..

thanks Matt, when the time comes I will definitely send the long-block to Metric for a rebuild. I hope Mike Elias doesn't plan on retiring in the near future :)

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2022, 12:22:56 »
hi Charles,

when replacing the head applying copper gasket spray to the gasket can also help prevent leaks

as far as the thermo time seal leak when you replace the seal maybe using some hylomar blue would help prevent leaks.
Matt
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2022, 13:48:27 »
..as far as the thermo time seal leak when you replace the seal maybe using some hylomar blue would help prevent leaks..

thanks for the recommendation. I've never used Hylomar Blue but will try it when I remove the TTS pod. thanks again, charles   

Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2022, 17:10:59 »
Well, you guys have about talked me out of pulling the engine. Since the head was rebuilt (about 30,000 miles ago) I do wonder why the head gasket started leaking so soon. I've personally only put 29,000 pampered miles on it. Maybe I'm overreacting but those runs down the side of the block are disconcerting...but first things first, I'll retorque the head and check the compression..
Well, I finally had a chance to check the compression last week; compression on all six was much lower than I expected. Cylinders 1 thru 4 were at 115 PSI, while 5 and 6 were at 90 and 95 psi, respectively. The head gasket is probably leaking around 5 and 6.
That being said, and since Cees says I should just for good measure 8), I decided to go ahead and pull the engine. I'm now in the process of removing all the peripherals off the longblock (manifolds, fuel injection pump & lines, water pump, distributer, a/c compressor, etc,,etc,). I spoke with David Latham and since I'll be buying a number of parts from Bud's over the next couple of months, I decided to let Bud's Benz arrange for shipping to Metric Motors (Bud's uses Metric Motors for their engine rebuilds).

One question I have that I'm hoping someone in this Group can answer (I really don't want to bug Mike Elias or David Latham with this) regards all the studs left in the block securing the exhaust/intake manifolds, alternator, FIP, thermostat housing, etc.  For those who've had their longblock/shortblock rebuilt by Metric, is it necessary to remove all the studs? Or will Metric Motors remove and replace them? Their website doesn't provide any details about the studs and I'd hate to receive a rebuilt longblock without any studs for all the peripherals. thanks, charles
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 18:45:47 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2022, 22:20:21 »


One question I have that I'm hoping someone in this Group can answer (I really don't want to bug Mike Elias or David Latham with this) regards all the studs left in the block securing the exhaust/intake manifolds, alternator, FIP, thermostat housing, etc.  For those who've had their longblock/shortblock rebuilt by Metric, is it necessary to remove all the studs? Or will Metric Motors remove and replace them? Their website doesn't provide any details about the studs and I'd hate to receive a rebuilt longblock without any studs for all the peripherals. thanks, charles

Metric replaced all these studs when the engine was rebuild. Don’t hesitate to call them. If buds removes your motor and sends it to Metric, who is going to put it back in?
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2022, 00:45:49 »
..If buds removes your motor and sends it to Metric, who is going to put it back in?
I'm removing and installing the engine myself. I'll deliver it to Bud's with my truck- about 1.5 hr. drive from my residence. That's good to know about the studs.  thanks Dirk.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 02:25:55 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2022, 02:47:51 »
Ohh, got you.
Below is how I got the motor back.
I believe he buys a complete seal kit for the motor and gave me all the seals for the unused auxiliary components in a bag together with some other parts. A new oil filter housing, crankshaft damper......
I know its not cheep but I felt well taken care off.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 03:10:54 by dirkbalter »
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2022, 08:22:24 »
Did they finish the aluminum head and valve cover like that Dirk?
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2022, 13:02:44 »
..I believe he buys a complete seal kit for the motor and gave me all the seals for the unused auxiliary components in a bag together with some other parts. A new oil filter housing, crankshaft damper...I know its not cheep but I felt well taken care off.
thanks Dirk, your post and photos answer several questions for me, one of which regarded the sleeve (see photo) pressed into the block for the fuel injection pump - I thought I was going to have to remove it (glad I don't have to). Looks like I won't need to buy a new gasket kit either.


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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2022, 14:33:22 »
Did they finish the aluminum head and valve cover like that Dirk?

Kevin
Yes they did. He is within driving distance from me. Since I didn’t exactly know what he needs, I had the motor and a buch of parts in my truck. He offered to also finish some of the unrelated components for me. Motor mount brackets, fuel and oil filter housings..
at the same time. (No charge)
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2022, 15:37:18 »
All the aluminum looks great. I wonder how they did that - bead blast?

Dirk, I assume you removed the distributer bearing plate before you dropped off the engine - have you got a photo of the front of the engine showing what it looked like when you got it back? thanks again, Charles

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2022, 16:31:23 »
They probably have a vapor blast. We use a low pressure sand blast cabinet then I do a light polish by hand with a rotary soft wire wheel on parts going for plating.  Anything like intake manifolds and valve covers ( aluminum ) go to my machine shop where they put those parts in a big dish washer. You want all of those parts to be clean before assembly.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2022, 16:44:23 »

Dirk, I assume you removed the distributer bearing plate before you dropped off the engine - have you got a photo of the front of the engine showing what it looked like when you got it back? thanks again, Charles

Actually, I delivered it with the plate attached and the drive in place. They of course took it of. It was returned, refinished and modified to improve oil flow or lubrication of the drive. I reassembled it with the gaskets provided, myself. I will post a pic tonight.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2022, 04:09:48 »
Front
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2022, 10:29:19 »
thanks!

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2022, 04:08:53 »
I suggest enhancing your timing marks when you have good access. Makes life a lot easier later on.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2022, 10:39:16 »
I suggest enhancing your timing marks when you have good access. Makes life a lot easier later on.
That's a great idea, I'll definitely mark the hub after I get the engine back.

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2022, 00:42:29 »
..I believe he buys a complete seal kit for the motor and gave me all the seals for the unused auxiliary components in a bag together with some other parts.
Dirk, do you recall whether there was a water pump gasket and water pump housing gasket in the bag? reason I ask, I'm putting together a list of items I'll need when I get the engine back. Just curious, which thread sealant did you use for the studs/bolts? thanks!

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2022, 12:21:09 »
All new water pumps come with a gasket. However as our friend Joe Alexander thankfully told me when I changed my water pump back some years ago, spend the big bucks on an OEM gasket from Mercedes-Benz. At the time I believe the water pump gasket from Mercedes was about five dollars.

I don’t remember if I had a Febi or Laso pump, but when I compared the two gaskets the difference was astounding. The one that came with the pump was paper thin and looked pretty useless. The “expensive” OEM gasket from Mercedes-Benz looked like a proper gasket! Significantly thicker and more robust. I threw the other one out.

I would like to say that was five dollars well spent.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2022, 20:03:37 »
I don't intend to buy a new pump - it was replaced 30K miles ago. I do however intend to separate it (the pump) from the housing and clean both it and the aluminum housing. I appreciate the head's up regarding the questionable gaskets. I'll go ahead and add a water pump gasket and pump housing gasket to my list. The ones Authentic Classics carries look like Elring, so they should be ok.   
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 00:56:02 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2022, 01:30:55 »
The thickness of the gasket is important because it sets the clearance between the water pump impeller and the housing. Whatever gasket you use, make sure you test spinning the pump and make sure it doesn't grind on the back of the housings. The clearance is pretty close and a paper thin gasket may allow the impeller to contact the housing.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2022, 12:50:01 »
The thickness of the gasket is important because it sets the clearance between the water pump impeller and the housing. Whatever gasket you use, make sure you test spinning the pump and make sure it doesn't grind on the back of the housings. The clearance is pretty close and a paper thin gasket may allow the impeller to contact the housing.

A very technical explanation of high value. All I had to do was listen to Joe Alexander, see the two gaskets together, and realize that the "free" gasket that came with the pump wasn't worth the paper it was cut from. No, I didn't buy any other 3rd party gasket, got one from MB. As mentioned it was a (ha ha) bank busting $5.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2022, 16:56:30 »
Dirk, do you recall whether there was a water pump gasket and water pump housing gasket in the bag? reason I ask, I'm putting together a list of items I'll need when I get the engine back. Just curious, which thread sealant did you use for the studs/bolts? thanks!

Yes it was. However, as mentioned here, I bought a new pump as well and it came with one. Not aware of the criticalness of the gasket thickness, I just installed it with one of them. It is spinning freely however.

I do use a “ gasket maker” in addition to the gasket itself in these application.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 17:04:35 by dirkbalter »
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2022, 21:50:10 »
I know on my W128 220SE water pump, without any gasket it will rub. The "paper thin" gasket is well... paper thin. Paper is typically about .003" thick. Yep, not much. The green type gasket could be 1mm or about .039". Just a guess but matches what I have seen. Even if the thin gasket was .010", that is still quite a bit of difference.   
Wallace
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2022, 23:40:16 »
Wallace,
you got me worried now. The "left over" one in my picture measures 0.55mm. 0.022in. Not sure how thick the one I installed was.   
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2022, 03:23:39 »
As long as it spins, it should be fine. Not going to change over time once it is torqued. I am not an expert with exactly what thickness gasket is required for the water pump. I just know from my experience that with no gasket on the 220SE, it rubbed. There is a balance between being too tight and too much clearance. Too tight and it rubs which is very bad. If there is too much clearance, then the pump is not as efficient. I suppose you would want to err on having more clearance.     
Wallace
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2022, 15:52:00 »
I'm disassembling the water pump assembly in preparation for media blasting and I've found a couple of things the Group might find interesting. Those who've replaced the water pump breather pipe may recall that the pipe has a 12mm banjo bolt on each end. I noticed one of the banjo bolts on mine is 17mm (vice 12mm) and a closer look showed that the banjo bolt was home-made by a previous owner (see pic). I couldn't understand why someone would go through all the trouble to manufacture a banjo bolt, until it occurred to me that they must have stripped the threads where the banjo bolt screws into the head. Rather than heli-coil the head, they made an over-sized banjo bolt. Metric Motors currently has my longblock so I have no idea what shape the (cut) threads are in the head. When I removed the breather pipe I just assumed 17mm was the correct size and didn't bother to take a close look at the threads. I ordered a new breather pipe from Auth Classics since the previous owner drilled out the pipe fitting to accommodate the larger bolt.

Several members of this Group have removed the water pump housing so they're familiar with the washer described in this post: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=30823.msg223685#msg223685. Instead of the correct washer (#184 in the image) I found a rubber washer between the water pump housing and the block. It's amazing the things you find on a 58yr-old car..

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2022, 15:58:19 »
Looks like Elring is the manufacturer of the water pump gasket used by Mercedes: https://www.authenticclassics.com/Water-Pump-for-230SL-others-MB-part-p/auth-008451.htm
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 21:15:19 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2022, 17:49:53 »
I got a report on my longblock from Metric Motors yesterday and its worse than I thought (I guess it always is :-\)
Looks like I'll need a new crankshaft and head. Appears the head was at some time in the past cut down below 84 mm and is now at 82.90 mm. Since Metric doesn't have a viable core on hand, I'll be getting a brand new OE head. The crankshaft has several issues including the common rear seal corrosion. I didn't realize the block had also in the past been bored to 82.5, and it now needed to be bored to 83 mm to clean up damage from some broken piston ring lands.

I'm glad Metric has the engine - the damage (above) is probably pretty routine for those guys. I know a number of members of this Group have had their 230/250 blocks bored +1.00 mm over.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 19:17:29 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2022, 18:41:52 »
Charles,
You are going to have a 235sl now.
 ;)
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2022, 17:57:42 »
While the engine's out of my car I've been tidying up various peripherals (exhaust/intake manifolds, oil/fuel filter assemblies, water pump/pump housing, distributor, FIP, etc.).

I've got an early R11 fuel injection pump and while cleaning it up I noticed some inscriptions on the governor section (photos attached).

I can't make any sense of the inscriptions but as best I can tell, there appears to be a date inscribed (possibly 12/2/74). I'm wondering if the FIP may have been rebuilt and reassembled on Dec 2nd 1974.

Anyone with a rebuilt FIP recognize these markings or have any idea what they represent? I realize it's a longshot,, just thought I'd ask. 


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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2022, 22:09:00 »
I had a coolant loss problem on my car which turned out to be one of the engine side covers below the manifolds. We fixed that and then it started loosing coolant again a few months later. Turns out the oil cooler was leaking, but after 50+ years of use that should be expected. All of these leaks were found with a rad pressure tester which is invaluable for finding coolant leaks.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2022, 00:30:56 »
I got my longblock back from Metric Motors and I'm in the process of reassembling everything..
Metric installed a brand new OE head on my block and I just found out that the water pump housing won't fit the new head. The new head doesn't provide enough clearance to allow the water pump housing to fit flush against the block. I took a look at the old (junk) head and saw where it had been filed to permit the water pump housing to fit correctly. I decided to file the housing rather than the new head but soon realized I'll need to file the head as well. I find it hard to believe that a brand new Mercedes head won't accommodate the water pump housing. Has anyone ever encountered this?

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2022, 13:35:14 »
The casting number on the new head is 127 016 1801 and the part number on the water pump housing is 121 201 0601.
At first I thought a previous owner might have installed the wrong water pump housing, but 121 201 0601 is indeed the correct pump housing for an M127 engine.


« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 13:43:38 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2022, 01:11:15 »
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 23:16:45 by Todd »
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2022, 12:03:14 »
..seeing that the area of contact on the water pump, is just a flange with a bolt hole..
thanks Todd, but the area of contact is where the water pump breather pipe attaches (see photo).  I ended up filing both the water pump housing and the head. The additional clearance provided by the gasket and the washer (#178 and #184 in the image below) should now permit the pump housing to fit correctly.   
thanks,,charles
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 22:48:58 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2022, 13:14:26 »
I completed installation of the engine ancillaries - the new engine started effortlessly and it runs smooth and quiet. I got it up to operating temperature then shut it off and re-torqued the head. All that remains is to recharge the AC and install the hood..
« Last Edit: October 16, 2022, 19:24:34 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2022, 16:57:26 »
So far I've logged 570 miles on the new engine and it runs beautifully. Yesterday I re-torqued the head, adjusted the valves, and changed the oil; all uneventful. I noticed all (12) valves were too tight but I guess that's normal considering new valve seats, springs, rockers, etc. I adjusted the intake and exhaust valves to .003 and .008, respectively.
The distributer housing gasket has a slight oil leak/seepage and its frustrating seeing oil on a freshly rebuilt engine. I ordered a new distributer housing gasket from MBUSA but it'll be the weekend before it arrives - for those who've replaced this gasket in the past, did you use gasket sealant on one side or both sides? I didn't use sealant the first time but I certainly will this time. I've got that notorious AC plate to contend with, so I don't want to have to do this job again.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 12:29:02 by Charles 230SL »

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2023, 23:17:49 »
haven't posted in a while so thought I'd provide an update..I've logged a little over 5000 miles on the new engine and it runs like a top! I can't say enough about the quality work done by Metric Motors. I drive the car several times during the week and to my folk’s house every weekend. I always enjoy driving through Warm Springs, GA (see pic)

With the old engine (before rebuild) I'd grown accustomed to cleaning up oil on the garage floor from leaking front & rear crankshaft seals - the new engine doesn’t leak a drop :) anywhere!

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2023, 04:52:40 »
Looks very good also. I noticed you upgraded to the rotary AC compressor with the single belt also.
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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2023, 12:33:50 »
All's well that ends well, you went through a lot but now you're definitely getting your money's worth. 5,000 miles since October is more than most of us put on our Pagoda's in 5 years!
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Leaking head gasket, engine rebuild
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2023, 21:57:16 »
 
All's well that ends well, you went through a lot but now you're definitely getting your money's worth. 5,000 miles since October is more than most of us put on our Pagoda's in 5 years!
Thanks guys, it’s become almost a daily driver for me.. Spring came early this year so I took the hardtop off a few weeks ago.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 22:11:04 by Charles 230SL »