Author Topic: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original  (Read 2851 times)

jeff91154

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Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« on: April 23, 2021, 14:35:26 »
Hallo allerseits, ich bin der stolze Besitzer eines großartigen 280 SL 1968, aber sein Motor ist nicht mehr original, die Nummer ist 130 016 13 01, wer kann mir den Ursprung dieses Motors geben? Vielen Dank an alle im Voraus und Bravo für diese großartige Seite.

Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2021, 15:14:47 »
Welcome!

What you are referring to is not an engine number, it is a casting part number. The EPC does not recognize it (neither 1401 nor 1301), but I rarely come across the part numbers on castings that are recognized by EPC, so this does not mean a lot, I think

Look for the engine number on the left side of the block, around cylinder 5 area. There may also be a plate there. You are a Full Member, so you have the access to study all you need about the engine numbers here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber

Good to look through what is there in Technical Manual overall - lots of knowledge!
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

jeff91154

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2021, 16:27:13 »
Vielen Dank für Ihre Informationen. Ich werde versuchen, die richtige Nummer für Ihre wertvollen Angaben zu finden

WRe

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2021, 17:01:22 »
Hi,
I think the number you are refering could be 130 016 12 01 which belongs to a M130.920 engine from a 280S/W108, a car with a carburetor and not an injection system.
...WRe
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 10:41:58 by WRe »

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2021, 19:57:43 »
I have serious doubts that he will be able to run a carbureted head on a 280SL. The casting number in the head is not a valid part number for orders. Our records of head ID casting numbers is not complete anyway. 13 01 could very well be a 280SL head. I have seen a NOS head for a late 280SL that pops up on ebay ever so often with an ID number that is no-where to be found.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114776440627?epid=1627554068&hash=item1ab9357f33:g:x~gAAOSwPpJeL3ZA

 Same with the head on my 280SL, which is 130 016 17 01. Additional info that would help would be the head designation , i.e.: 280SE/A, 280SE/SL etc.
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Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2021, 21:58:57 »
The system does not see 130 016 12 01 either. Let's see what is the engine number and yes, the head designation would help.

The system sees the PN A130 010 18 21 used in M114 and M130980.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 22:11:35 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2021, 23:24:33 »
Again, the casting number the OP shows is not a part-number. The system will not show this as a number you can/could order. most lists will show 130 010 67 20 as apart number for late and 130 010 26 20 for early 280SL head.
BTW does anybody know who the seller in my posted ebay link is?
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MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2021, 23:47:47 »
One other issue: The picture the OP has of the casting number does not show the compression ratio above the number. What is the story about that? Did some heads not have that?
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Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2021, 07:50:56 »
One other issue: The picture the OP has of the casting number does not show the compression ratio above the number. What is the story about that? Did some heads not have that?

My cylinder head does not have the compression marking.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2021, 11:13:33 »
pawel: Would it be correct to say that the new cylinder head posted in my ebay link, is NOT for a 280SL as it says A130 010 18 21?
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Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2021, 18:39:58 »
No, I found more, actually (need to be double checking all the time, sorry for this).

You have a regular Pagoda cylinder head for the US and Canada market. And a regular one for cars that used 130.980 and 130.981 for the US and Canada.

Your cylinder head was used in the following M130:

As of engine:
130.980 10/50 012488
130.980 12/52 026282

130.981 10/50 000312
130.981 12/52 001955

130.983 10/50 004597
130.983 12/52 007230


Up to engine: 980 12/52 064225

For 130.980 it is regular for the USA and Canada; if you look at the world , this head appears in SA 12250 - air pollution control

For 130.981 it is regular for the USA and Canada; if you look at the world, this head appears in SA 12250 as above

For 130.983 it is regular for the USA and Canada; if you look at the world, this head appears in SA 12250 as well

There was another SA for pollution control, 12207, but with different cylinder heads.

It retails at $8600 for end user, less VAT for business, minus 23%.

For what car was the M130.981 - no idea.

Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2021, 23:17:13 »
Oh my god! Pawel, I know you have the best intentions but you are not making that easier.
When you say "Your head" which one are you referring to?
My VDH parts book, issued in 2016 gives two part-numbers for M130-983:
130 010 2620 for engine up to serial number 5301 with manual and 8784 with automatic
130 010 6720 for engine from serial number 5302 with manual and 8785 with automatic

These are the numbers for 280SL with M130-983. The cut-off numbers are obviously different.
So what is  130 010 18 21 as the guy on ebay sells, used for?

The M130-981 was for the 300SEL 2.8 1968-1970 if that is what your question was.
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Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 07:51:49 »
Mike, sorry for the confusion!

I was describing where A 130 010 18 21 was fitted.

I understand "your head" was wrong. It is my poor English. You said "my link" from ebay - I read it as it was your post on ebay. I remember you had more than one head, thought it was your item. Sorry again.

For M130.983 there were more part numbers for cylinder heads than those two you are quoting.
If you look in US and Canada markets
A 130 010 1920  replaced by
A 130 010 2620  up to manual 4596 and automatic 7229
A 130 010 1821  as of manual 4597 and automatic 7230

If you look at 130.983 in World markets
A 130 010 2620 up to manual 5301 and automatic 8784 (which is what you see)
A 130 010 6720 as of manual 5302 and automatic 8785 (which is what you see)

Then for World markets you have two SA codes (special equipment codes) for Air Pollution Control - SA 12207 and SA 12250

For SA 12207 we have cylinder heads
A 130 010 1920 replaced by
A 130 010 2620

For SA 12250 we have cylinder heads
A 130 010 7320 replaced by A 130 010 1821
A 130 010 9320 also replaced by A 130 010 1821

Looks like SA 12207 was modified and replaced by SA 12250.

I would conclude A 130 010 1821 was late head for US and Canada, regular for those markets, but SA code (special equipment) related from "world" perspective as it was designed for stricter Emission Control regulations.

These are all cylinder head numbers I could find for 130.983.




Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 15:08:44 »
The question then is, what makes the heads different because of emission control? The fact that the compression ratio number is amiss on the heads leads me to suspect that these heads were "lower" compression, i.e.: 9.0:1
What else would have an effect on emissions?
My part-number record is from the vdh and probably covers German or Euro engines only, thus the numbers I have.
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Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2021, 16:56:37 »
Well, under the SA codes parts list you see quite a lot of things: throttles, valves, valve springs, camshafts, FIPs... quite a lot...

I have no idea, obviously, about the differences between the heads, other than what we have in the Wiki.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2021, 19:38:19 »
Well...that is the curious thing. The bare head has little to contribute to emissions, other than combustion chamber dimensions, including valve size. All that could lead to a lower compression. And here we have always thought the compression was the same.
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Shvegel

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2021, 12:46:14 »
Oxides of Nitrogen(NOX) are produced at higher combustion temperatures. 

They are reduced by:
Retarding the timing.
mixing exhaust in with the intake stream (EGR) which we avoided.  The exhaust essentially acts as a compressible spacer .
Lowering the compression.

I am guessing that leaving the compression ratio of the low compression heads off the castings wasn't an accident.

FGN59

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2021, 12:56:17 »
« I am guessing that leaving the compression ratio of the low compression heads off the castings wasn't an accident »

Are you suggesting there was an MB-gate (lower compression head not advertised) before there was a VW-gate (dodgy software for emission control tests)?  :D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 14:57:47 by FGN59 »
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MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2021, 14:24:42 »
Some of you may know from other posts, that the head issue is a pet peeve of mine. The head on my car, which according to all evidence is the original head in the car, has a 9.0:1 compression mark on it. Neither the casting number nor the ID (280SEL/SL) is listed in our Tech Manual.
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Pawel66

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2021, 19:23:18 »
Mike, if I were Daimler and if I had to lower the compression ratio for the US market as one of the means to meet the emission regulations, the last thing I would like to see from the marketing viewpoint is to have this lower compression ratio marked on the head. There is no point in it and it is bad message. I would not like to have it to a degree, that, if the engineering department issued some amount of these heads to the market and I spotted it, I would make sure that it is discontinued and never stamped again on any of the heads lower or higher.

I am serious. It may be as simple as that.
Pawel

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mdsalemi

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2021, 23:04:38 »
My head says 9.5….and just “280”. No indication it’s not the original. But I would not bet on it…
Michael Salemi
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MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2021, 13:19:44 »
My head says 9.5….and just “280”. No indication it’s not the original. But I would not bet on it…

That head would be correct for pre-1970 280SLs. It still has the "square" shaped combustion chamber/head gasket
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Shvegel

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2021, 19:45:41 »
Mike,
Doesn't your can have oversized pistons? Could it have been the victim of an overheat / cracked head at some point?

MikeSimon

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2021, 23:09:22 »
No, I had a connecting rod bearing fail in 1986. I had the short block rebuilt. I didn't even remember the shop put oversize pistons in. Only found that out after I checked the bill from back then.
I took the engine out myself and disassembled everything and took the block to Frankfurt.
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Shvegel

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Re: Motor Nr. 280 SL nicht original
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2021, 07:50:53 »
Ahh.  That explains it.  It is so odd that engines that proceed and follow yours are different castings.  I wish we had chamber cc's in the database.