ZF 5 speed transmission

[CapTom]

 ZF 5 speed manual transmission I personally pulled from a 1967 250sl many years ago.

Thanks for all your helpful input.  Now that I know people are looking, lets talk about what one would pay for a used original ZF 5 speed.   
 The car has since been sold, it was a total rust bucket but looking at the prices for 113's today probably should have kept it.  The car was not running when I pulled the trans so I can't tell you its condition.  I can shift it through the gears, input and output shafts feel properly tight, (not wobbly).  I have the 5 speed shifter, linkages and clutch/pressure plate.  I understand that there were very few of these made but am certain this is one of the few.  Been sitting on it for years.  Price $20,000.00  or best reasonable offer.  US

[Chris Long]

GLWS - FYI https://www.authenticclassics.com/New-ZF-5-Speed-Transmission-for-230SL-250SL-280SL-p/auth-004230.htm

[cabrioletturbo]

ZF 5 speed manual transmission I personally pulled from a 1967 250sl many years ago.  The car has since been sold, it was a total rust bucket but looking at the prices for 113's today probably should have kept it.  The car was not running when I pulled the trans so I can't tell you its condition.  I can shift it through the gears, input and output shafts feel properly tight, (not wobbly).  I have the 5 speed shifter, linkages and clutch/pressure plate.  I understand that there were very few of these made but am certain this is one of the few.  Been sitting on it for years.  Price $20,000.00 US

Dude, you can still find a complete car for that money...  ...but it is your transmission, so I guess you can ask as much as you want. There is a difference between just advertising and selling.

[teahead]

[Jack Jones]

CapTom,

I am interested in a ZF 5 speed and have seen the new Authentic Classics new unit but feel it is more than I will pay. $20K for a used transmission in inconceivable.

Jack

[Merc_Girl]

Maybe an extra ‘0’ was added by mistake? 😉

[Cees Klumper]

I would not think so, given the '.00' added at the end.
Maybe in 20 years this will be a good deal.

[Merc_Girl]

Was trying to be kind 😁

[MikeSimon]

Maybe he is looking at BaT too much..

[lowpad]

I understand that we would all prefer to have the "real" ZF 5-speed, but how does the cost of the compare to the "all-in" costs of a Getrag 265 conversion?  Spending $20-25K to moderately reduce the cruising RPMs of my 230SL is just not worth it.  Is the 265 basically fungible with the original ZF 5-speed?  I'm not sure I care about the pedigree of ZF if a function-equivalent 265 works basically the same as the ZF and costs one-third as much. 

[Merc_Girl]

I understand that we would all prefer to have the "real" ZF 5-speed, but how does the cost of the compare to the "all-in" costs of a Getrag 265 conversion?  Spending $20-25K to moderately reduce the cruising RPMs of my 230SL is just not worth it.  Is the 265 basically fungible with the original ZF 5-speed?  I'm not sure I care about the pedigree of ZF if a function-equivalent 265 works basically the same as the ZF and costs one-third as much.

I knew this site was educational, but now I have learnt a new word in the English language. ‘ fungible’ what a great word! Now having to think how to drop it into conversations 😁

Odd the seller of the ZF gearbox, as yet, has made no response to the comments made

[Benz Dr.]

I knew this site was educational, but now I have learned a new word in the English language. ‘ fungible’ what a great word! Now having to think about how to drop it into conversations 😁

Odd the seller of the ZF gearbox, as yet, has made no response to the comments made

Would you reply to any of this if it was your ad?  His ad may indeed seem to be overly optimistic but it did say OBO and it should have some sort of value. 

[DaveB]

CapTom did edit his ad in response to the comments, adding:
"Thanks for all your helpful input. Now that I know people are looking, lets talk about what one would pay for a used original ZF 5 speed."
$5000 is my estimate, maybe more if guaranteed and/or professionally assessed. Note that to fit this transmission you would need to find a new shorter front driveshaft, or shorten your existing, and I think there's also a specific transmission mount.
The Getrag 265 seems to be liked by all who have them.
Or there is a Toyota option: "It is a Toyota 18R 7 bolt Cast iron gearbox 5 speed, the 7 bolts one is critical as it fit the bell housing of the Pagoda with the adaptor Template."
from this old thread: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11921.0

[Benz Dr.]

You stick anything else in your car other than an original ZF 5 speed and it's just another resto-mod. Are you saying that any other 5 speed tans has the same value as a real one?   

[DaveB]

No, just reporting reversible 5-speed modifications that others have tried and are apparently happy with. ZF is best imo but rare.

[Merc_Girl]

You stick anything else in your car other than an original ZF 5 speed and it's just another resto-mod. Are you saying that any other 5 speed tans has the same value as a real one?

But surely if you put one in your car and that wasn’t available for that year anyway, then surely comes under the same umbrella as a ‘resto-mod’ even if it is one for the W113?

Mind you, I have no problem with resto-mods as long as it makes the owner happy and improves their driving experience 😁

[Merc_Girl]

I see authentic classics has a fully refurbished one for a bargain(??!,??) $19,550.00
https://www.authenticclassics.com/New-ZF-5-Speed-Transmission-for-230SL-250SL-280SL-p/auth-004230.htm

[Benz Dr.]

But surely if you put one in your car and that wasn’t available for that year anyway, then surely comes under the same umbrella as a ‘resto-mod’ even if it is one for the W113?

Mind you, I have no problem with resto-mods as long as it makes the owner happy and improves their driving experience 😁

I would think that a factory original option from the same time period would be considered a value add even if the car wasn't originally equipped with it. A resto-mod being more like an aftermarket part, something from a completely different make of car, or something far newer than when the year the car was built. 

[Merc_Girl]

I would think that a factory original option from the same time period would be considered a value add even if the car wasn't originally equipped with it. A resto-mod being more like an aftermarket part, something from a completely different make of car, or something far newer than when the year the car was built.

Maybe, but I thought this gearbox was only available for the 250SLs? So, if you put in a 230 or 280 and that wasn’t available then, would this be trying to make the car something it wasn’t? In which case one could just be upfront and not pretend something it isn’t by putting a modern gearbox in?

I can see there is an argument for both and that this gets into some unclear  gray areas of restoration and what folk are looking to achieve 😁

[Jonny B]

The ZF 5-speed did span the three models of the 113. There were 885 installed, starting late in the 230 SL (1965), all 250 SLs for all cars in model year 1967. After 1967 only non-US delivery cars were available with the 5-speed. There was an issue with the linkage modifications needed to fit in with the emissions reduction system required for US delivery, that MB chose not to pursue.

The numbers and items I noted above are listed in Pagoda World No 5 which has a reprint of an article by Michael Egan in Mallory's "Mercedes Collector" regarding the 5-speed transmission

[Merc_Girl]

The ZF 5-speed did span the three models of the 113. There were 885 installed, starting late in the 230 SL (1965), all 250 SLs for all cars in model year 1967. After 1967 only non-US delivery cars were available with the 5-speed. There was an issue with the linkage modifications needed to fit in with the emissions reduction system required for US delivery, that MB chose not to pursue.

The numbers and items I noted above are listed in Pagoda World No 5 which has a reprint of an article by Michael Egan in Mallory's "Mercedes Collector" regarding the 5-speed transmission

Thank Jonny, I stand corrected 😁

[Benz Dr.]

I think it was from May of 1966 for 230SL and the 280SL up to July for USA version as Johnny stated but available on Euro version up to end of production. MB made around 1,400 units which were also used in 111/112 coupes and cabs., 108 and 109 six-cylinder cars. Regardless of application, it's still a very rare option.

I stopped by the MB tent at the old Meadowbrook Concours and they had a 300SE 112 cab on display. The car had a 5-speed transmission so I asked one of the guys working there about it. He said that it was one of three built. Now that's rare!

[mgmoore]

Hi Guys,

Bitcoin 67,000 usd, NFT digital house sells for 500,000 usd. 20,000 usd for a shot zf gearbox sounds like deal of the century. Hell yeah!   

[doitwright]

Hi Guys,

Bitcoin 67,000 usd, NFT digital house sells for 500,000 usd. 20,000 usd for a shot zf gearbox sounds like deal of the century. Hell yeah!   

Does that mean you are going to buy it? Just make sure NFT does not stand for Non Functioning Transmission.

[teahead]

I guess if you have an original Pagoda that came w/a ZF and that it was missing, one would spend big money for an original.

However, one would have to justify...will you get your money back ($20k) if you were buy this and re-sell your car?

Obviously putting in a ZF into a four-speed car is just not worth it when there are 265 Getrag, and even 6-speed options and much lower costs.

[lowpad]

Completely agree with Teahead.  If I can do a reversible 265 conversions for $4-5K, that's infinitely preferable to a $20K ZF.  I don't care what the purists think (not planning to sell my car on BaT) -- if it's functionally equivalent and doesn't damage the car in any way, it's a great solution.

[DaveB]

I guess if you have an original Pagoda that came w/a ZF and that it was missing, one would spend big money for an original.

That is a good point. That scenario would increase the value. For a perfect match there are specific serial numbers stamped on the transmission ID plate: 057 for 230/250 and 064 for 280.

[Shvegel]

I believe the Authentic Classics gearbox is a new unit fromthe reproduction run ZF did a few years back.  Regardless, I wonder if it is still available? Some things are too valuable to keep in inventory and I would imagine this would be ordered from Mercedes after you ordered from A.C.  I am afraid you might get an, “I’m sorry. This is no longer available.” email after the fact.

[Benz Dr.]

I don't see it on their website anymore so I expect someone bought it.

[Taleb]

cool down guys , maybe he meant 2000$ not 20000$ ....

[Benz Dr.]

No. 20K for an original ZF is the price. Less for a used one.

[doitwright]

cool down guys , maybe he meant 2000$ not 20000$ ....

$2,000 would be absurdly cheap for a ZF 5 speed while $20,000 is absurdly expensive (at least for my wallet).