Author Topic: Camshaft Causing Ticking Noise (Read 8524 times)

Kirk32 · « **on:** March 03, 2021, 00:50:08 »

Hello,

I am new member and new 71 280sl owner without much knowledge yet. Having my car mechanical restored right now and my mechanic is telling me my ticking noise is coming from a incorrect camshaft on my car. My camshaft has a 05 on the end with 1140516161 on the side of of it. Is that camshaft even correct for a 71 280sl and if not would that only be causing a ticking noise wouldn't cause more problems if incorrect. Sorry in advance in my inexperience and would appreciate any input. Thanks

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2021, 05:25:58 »

I can't quite see how an incorrect camshaft would produce a ticking noise. Provided it is running in correct-size camshaft bearings, the only difference with other camshafts would be the lobe profiles? Maybe I am missing something.

DaveB · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2021, 06:49:04 »

I don't know whether that's the correct camshaft for your motor but check that the overhead oiler tube is not blocked and that none of the three valve cover retaining brackets have been contacting the cam

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2021, 14:54:22 »

Ticking noises are often caused by worn cam lobes.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2021, 16:15:13 »

Thanks for the info guys. But cam and lobes look to be in good shape.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2021, 16:16:16 »

Here’s the 05 stamp. Which I don’t know if is correct for the 280sl.

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2021, 17:40:24 »

I think I can see a witness mark between cylinders 1 and 2 where the rocker cover mounting bracket is fouling the camshaft.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2021, 17:46:53 »

Thanks for the reply. Can you please explain further. I am new to this so I apologize in advance to my lack of knowledge on this.

waltklatt · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2021, 19:05:38 »

Think there are some oiling issues and improper alignment of the camtowers.
See the uneven wear on the camtower surfaces on the cam. Looks like the rear parts are more wearing then the fronts are. Meaning if you look at one of the tower rings on the cam itself, front half is not wearing evenly as the rear half. Looks like a split in the middle of the wearing surface.
Is that clear to you?
Walter

Kirk32 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2021, 19:44:02 »

Thank you

Pawel66 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2021, 20:10:23 »

Quote from: Kirk32 on March 03, 2021, 16:16:16

Here’s the 05 stamp. Which I don’t know if is correct for the 280sl.

Please find enclosed a handful of info about camshafts in our cars. 05 is there, it is a late US camshaft. Us camshafts were less "sharp" then Euro (Emission control regulations). Do not worry too much about the number on the casting. They were not changed with every modification. The fact it starts with 114 does not mean it was not used in W113. There are at least two part numbers for the US camshafts for 280SL, both starting with 114 (not your casting number though).

You are getting advise on possible source of noise already.

I am not a mechanic, I can only say that ticking may also be heard if the clearances are wrong (you have to adjust them in these engines - has your mechanic done that, and, done correctly?), when cam lobes or rockers or lash caps wear is excessive or when you screw down the valve cover too tight - its supports bent and start touching rockers.

The geometry and oiling issues, as waltklatt is spotting, are, however, priority to check in my opinion.

Pinder · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2021, 20:42:44 »

I have recently fixed a ticking noise that I had and it was one or more of the following.

1. (worn lobe on camshaft, replaced it with a re ground one). replace rocker arms and lash caps. adjust valve clearances. re-torque head. NOTE: one or two rocker ball arm studs were lose. they are not cheap but i was able to stiffen them up by deforming the thread to get an interference fit. this worked well.

2. add shims to cam towers to correct rocker arm geometry. (this did not really make any difference)

3. fix exhaust leak by manifold. and weld another hole in the muffler. (this made a much quieter car and probably main cause of ticking sound)

4. valve cover brackets were rubbing on cam. adjusted them by bending back in place. (this i think made somewhat of a difference)

5. Timing chain tensioner was not keeping chain in tension. minor sanding of plastic cup inside timing chain tensioner fixed this so that the small ball bearing seals the inlet hole.

So in my case there were multiple problems. Check the easy ones first.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2021, 20:48:58 »

Thanks you guys! If it is what waltklatt is spotting, what is the best way to fix that issue. and In terms of how I should approach the mechanic on that issue you are spotting. Yes he is a highly recommended mechanic for these cars but I do not know him that well. Thanks again..

Pawel66 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2021, 21:42:03 »

Highly recommended mechanic not able to recognize cam shaft for M130 for 280SL? Please...

ja17 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2021, 00:59:48 »

First of all as mentioned, make sure that the valve cover holders are not touching the camshaft. If so you will get a ticking noise. Simply look to see how close they are when assembled. As mentioned you can also look for a rub mark on the inside of each valve cover hold down strap. Bend the straps outward away from the cam if needed. Be aware that the straps get closer to the cam when the valve cover is tightened down. Look for the rub marks first!

Kirk32 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2021, 01:24:02 »

Haven’t seen it myself yet but mechanic says it’s not the covers. Here a pic looks to be on clearance.

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2021, 05:25:01 »

I saw this once. Ended up being loose valve stem keepers. Eventually, the valve dropped into the cylinder and smashed a piston. Rare enough problem that could be heard but not seen.

You better pull the head if you can't find anything external that caused the noise.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2021, 13:48:56 »

I don't know what was all done to the head/valves. But if the rocker arm ball studs are worn, it will be difficult to set and hold the proper valve clearance. After you adjust the valves and think all is OK, they will still be loose and make noise.

ja17 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2021, 16:24:03 »

Looks like the back strap is close to me? Did you check it for a rub mark on the inside of the strap. Maybe bump it over a bit.

ja17 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2021, 16:43:45 »

Sometimes the rocker arm surface will wear and the camshaft does not. You can easily identify this situation by checking the valve adjustment. The one with the worn rocker arm will have way too much clearance. Remove it and check it.

Also sometimes after cylinder head work the "arch" of the rocker arm will contact the rim of the top spring retainer before the rocker arm contacts the "pressure piece".

Also included a picture of a valve cover support worn by a camshaft.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2021, 17:17:21 »

Thanks! Will check all you mentioned this weekend.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 06, 2021, 22:01:40 »

It was none of the issues mentioned. I was told the camshaft lobes are too high. So he is going to replace it with a used camshaft that has a 01 stamp on it. I’m hoping all will be good.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 06, 2021, 22:36:18 »

Too high lobes? On 05?

I am not and expert, but this sounds odd to me... Curious what would experts say to this.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2021, 22:43:15 »

Yes on 05. Which I read is actually the better replacement to the 01 that he is putting in.
He says some sort of modification was done on the 05. Again this is all new to me so I am learning as I go. But I don’t really have a choice but to go with it now I guess.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2021, 00:19:02 »

I would like to know some expert opinion also. My head will need to be put together and I have both a 02 and a 05.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2021, 01:08:57 »

Got this attached on budzbenz site don’t know if it helps at all.

ja17 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2021, 05:51:46 »

Mike, the 05 is the one to use. Kirk, The lift on the 01 is probably the same. Just the duration is different. I assume you checked the valve timing already? You might also need to check to see if someone put an off set key at the sprocket.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2021, 13:23:31 »

Joe: Could you elaborate? Why is the 05 better than the 02?

ja17 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 07, 2021, 14:53:05 »

Mike, the performance of the two is the same. The "05" is a newer version of the "02" manufactured with improved material.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2021, 13:50:25 »

Another cylinder head related mystery. My 280 is a real late car. Built at the end of 11/70 and it has a 02 cam. Was the 05 not used in the SL, or only in US versions?
I have to see what the date of the head is, that came with the 05.

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #30 on:** March 08, 2021, 17:56:54 »

Quote from: Kirk32 on March 06, 2021, 22:01:40

It was none of the issues mentioned. I was told the camshaft lobes are too high.

The only way valve lift can be causing noise is if the valves are touching the pistons. This is NOT a result of incorrect cam; rather too much material has already been removed from either the block or the head face or both.
Find a mechanic who knows what he's doing.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 08, 2021, 18:06:42 »

Quote from: MikeSimon on March 08, 2021, 13:50:25

Another cylinder head related mystery. My 280 is a real late car. Built at the end of 11/70 and it has a 02 cam. Was the 05 not used in the SL, or only in US versions?
I have to see what the date of the head is, that came with the 05.

05 is modification of 01, as stated. Both are the US shafts, shaped to help fit the emission standards. 02 is late Euro shaft. I had 02 in March 70 Euro 280SL. I bought a new shaft from Mercedes and the spare part number yielded 02 shaft as a spare.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #32 on:** March 08, 2021, 20:56:19 »

Thanks, Pawel!
Makes me feel better. I will stick with the 02.
Funny thing is, the 05 cam I have came with a head I bought from a German source. I am sure it came off a sedan.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 08, 2021, 21:32:52 »

I think the part number for 05 is A 114 051 05 01. It has been widely used in W114 for M114 engines, mostly sedans. Also in Europe as much as I can tell.

Kirk32 · « **Reply #34 on:** March 08, 2021, 22:16:13 »

Just talked with Tom at Mercedes classic center, he said the cam they have for the late 280sl's, is the 05 and cost is $755

Pawel66 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 08, 2021, 22:36:08 »

My cam shaft was very pitted. I said what the hell and I bought a new one. It happened to be 02 (Euro), costed money, but I am happy.

If I may advise: read about the proper oil (with certain amount of zinc, these timing systems need it, they cannot go on regular modern oils) and cam shaft run-in procedure.

ja17 · « **Reply #36 on:** March 09, 2021, 06:00:17 »

Yes, you guys are correct. I am corrected on my previous post. By checking my own camshaft chart the "01" and "05" cams have the same specs and performance. The "05" uses improved materials. The "02" camshaft is slightly de-tuned to improve emissions.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #37 on:** March 22, 2021, 13:26:16 »

So! "Curiousity Killed The Cat". We have all that "information" in the Tech Manual, most very vague and based on ...??
As I have 3 different heads with cams, I decided to do some measuring and see what actually the difference is between some of the cams.
I did this for MYSELF and do not want this to be part of the W113 "Bible" thus becoming a fact that - while wrong in some areas - will become the "word on cams"

You can take from it whatever you need.

I used Brown & Sharpe Dial Indicators and set them up over the cam lobes with the cams installed in the head. I measured the lift and tried to determine the duration. The latter is a little difficult, because you would have to figure out where exactly on the opening ramp the lift starts, which depends on the actual valve lash setting. I have 02, 01 and 08 cams
See attached pictures.

450sl · « **Reply #38 on:** March 22, 2021, 14:15:57 »

Mike, its important to know at howmuch lift you measured the timing of your cam, usually timing is measured at 1mm lift to eliminate measuring errors...........

cheers mark

MikeSimon · « **Reply #39 on:** March 22, 2021, 14:38:54 »

Hi mark:

I do not understand your comment. Can you elaborate?

450sl · « **Reply #40 on:** March 22, 2021, 15:07:52 »

Mike, if you are to measure your timing , you go as follows: first turn your cam towards the point where you have 1mm lift at the valve , then note the opening angle,
then go towards the closingpoint of your valve where you also have 1mm lift left . then note your closing time.

This to be as accurate as possible ; as it is very difficult to find the exact spot were the opening or closing point at no lift lies..

MikeSimon · « **Reply #41 on:** March 22, 2021, 18:27:40 »

Mark: thank you. I am aware of all that. that's why I made the comments about the difficulty to determine actual opening angle. I did not check with valves installed or checking timing of the engine in the car
I just wanted a "quality" not "quantity" difference in the cams. As the cams were all checked under the same conditions, it should give you a general idea of the differences.
For me, it gave me more confidence in what cam to use for my car.

Tyler S · « **Reply #42 on:** April 11, 2021, 14:45:41 »

It looks as if the rocker geometry is off. The adjusters look almost bottomed out.
Valve or seat wear, a machined head top surface with no cam bearing shims, Or machined valve seats will cause this. Thinner lash caps (3.5mm) and/or cam bearing tower shims will correct the geometry.
There is an area towards the back of the head where you can just get a caliper in to measure the head thickness in situ. If it has been machined then the rocker geometry will be off. This also will cause premature valve guide wear.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #43 on:** April 11, 2021, 22:28:13 »

Let me see whether I understand this:
If the ball studs are "bottomed out", the valve adjustment is on maximum lash. They can be made tighter but not "looser", right?
What is a "lash cap" and where are they available in different thicknesses??

Pawel66 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 11, 2021, 22:30:22 »

One source I know for the lash caps is the Mercedes dealers. Various part numbers for various thicknesses. I had one made in the past, but they were not made well, so I replaced them with originals.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #45 on:** April 11, 2021, 23:43:22 »

Still: What are they and what do they look like?

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #46 on:** April 11, 2021, 23:48:18 »

The lash cap is the small metal piece that sits on top of the valve springs and is actually the surface that the rocker arm pushes down on. One for each valve.

Tyler S · « **Reply #47 on:** April 12, 2021, 00:33:55 »

The smaller lash caps and/or adding cam pedestal shims correct the rocker arm geometry. Either by lowering the valve stem interface where it meets the rocker (lash caps), or raising the camshaft up (pedestal shims). The rockers should be roughly horizontal with the head starting out. When the geometry is tilted one direction to begin with it changes the way the rockers interact with the cam and valves. It also introduces side loading and more wear on the guides. And as noted it forces you to run the adjusters pretty far down in order to compensate for the loss of clearance.
Hope that makes sense.

The pedestal shims have an added bonus in that they correct the valve train timing by bringing the cam back up to the correct height off the engine block. They are also much cheaper.
The thinner lash caps are usually reserved for when the valve seats are cut in order to lower the valve stem interface back to spec.

Pinder · « **Reply #48 on:** April 23, 2021, 00:05:07 »

You can get the tower shims on ebay.
I got lash caps from metric Motors.

Berggreen · « **Reply #49 on:** October 10, 2021, 11:48:18 »

Quote from: ja17 on March 09, 2021, 06:00:17

Yes, you guys are correct. I am corrected on my previous post. By checking my own camshaft chart the "01" and "05" cams have the same specs and performance. The "05" uses improved materials. The "02" camshaft is slightly de-tuned to improve emissions.

Hi Joe

I just stumbled over your comment above about the 02 cam.

Isn't the 02 cam equivalent to the 09 cam, and both being European cams with identical geometry and 142 degrees opening, and thus the most aggressive available cams for the 280SL?

The 02 should be an improved version of the 09 in terms of material. The 02 cam can still be bought new from Mercedes - I bought one recently, which is waiting to be installed.

The 01 and 05 cams are similar identical cams in terms of geometry (130 degree opening) with the 05 having an improved material over the 01. Those cams are actually de-tuned for the US market to comply with emission demands, compared to the standard European 02/09 cams.

Thanks,
Christian

MikeSimon · « **Reply #50 on:** October 10, 2021, 18:56:07 »

Christian, I think you got it right. My personal opinion. Not based on expert knowledge. As I said, my 1971 German spec 280SL has an 02 cam. No reason to believe that this is not the "latest and greatest" Mercedes had to offer for a Euro car.

ja17 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 27, 2021, 04:59:19 »

Yep, I think you got it Christian.

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Author Topic: Camshaft Causing Ticking Noise (Read 8524 times)

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