Rust repair

[Bossjoe]

Hello. I know that a purist would scoff at the idea, but has anyone used a "miracle paint" type product for rust repair? My 250 SL has a lot of rust: floorboards, trunk floor, some in the wheelwells, and rocker panels. I'd like to restore this vehicle myself. I'm not concerned about OEM parts or using the car to show, or resale value. I'd just like it to look nice and be safe. I'm not completely opposed to buying new panels / pieces and having them installed, but I doubt that I could do the work myself - and that's part of the point.

Just looking for some thoughts, and the experience of anybody who has gone the "repair" route vs. replace.

Thanks.

[doitwright]

Check kkmfg.com

[kampala]

I think that for you to get valid responses you should post some photos.  With photos folks can advise if the POR15 route will work or metal is too far gone.  Try to show and describe if it’s surface or rust through etc. 

Products like POR15 when used properly will convert and seal surface rust. 

[johnk]

I agree with the pictures. However if you have that much visible rust you most likely have at least some rust through the metal. Rust conversion coatings only help with surface rust. Smaller rust through can be fixed by learning how to use a Tig or MiG welder much easier than entire panel replacement.

[stickandrudderman]

The bit that joins your steering, brakes and suspension together is the shell; it's fundamentally critical to safety.
Any metal part that is rusted has its strength compromised; the more rust, the weaker the component.
Surface rust will only reduce the strength by an insignificant amount but any rust that penetrates deep into the material will have a significant impact on strength.
If any part of your car that is load bearing has rust that is not just surface rust, you should give serious consideration to having it cut out and replaced with new metal.

[Cees Klumper]

Visible rust may indeed just be the tip of a serious iceberg. When I bought my current restoration object, a '72 Lancia Fulvia, there were only a few rust spots visible. However, as it turned out, I had to fabricate about 20 new sections of oftentimes heavier-gauge metal to replace what I ended up finding lurking beneath the surface. It was surprising how well the car was still holding up, literally, as particularly the bottom front structure was severely compromised. No amount of rust converter would have done anything meaningful.  I taught myself welding for this project and bought a simple 110 volt MIG welder at Harbor Freight ($380 or so) that has done a stellar job, including welding external (i.e. visible) panels right here in my home garage. So it's possible as a DIY job.

[Pawel66]

Visible rust may indeed just be the tip of a serious iceberg.

I will never forget those moments I had lived through twice: when you see your chassis after sand blasting (or any other blasting), or rather you see what is left of it... or see through what is left of it. And it was a fairly good looking car before, with just a few minor imperfections.

And then the chassis guy says: Mr. Pawel, it is not so bad, we just need to...

[FresnoBob]

My Pagoda originated in northern Germany and had considerable rust.  I drive the car often and have no intentions of restoring it to show quality.  I used a rust converter inside and out and then a product called Tiger Hair to fill the holes and bond with the newly rust converted surfaces.  I don't drive the car in the rain and frankly, from the underside, you can't tell the difference as I undercoated the worst rusted areas to cover the Tiger Hair surfaces. 

(https://www.amazon.com/Evercoat-Fibreglass-1189-Strand-Reinforced/dp/B000P72GKK/ref=asc_df_B000P72GKK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312029767170&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18384170028674714835&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031861&hvtargid=pla-634463342637&psc=1)

[cabrioletturbo]

Bob, issue with using fiberglass for such repairs although is nice to cover holes short-term, but will produce larger issue down the road. The fiberglass material and its bonding agent will capture moisture within it, causing further metal oxidation and deterioration. Fiberglass provides zero structural support for weakened area.

My car was 'nicely' bondo-ed over fiberglass which came crumbling once the proper body work started. Looking from half-meter distance, floors looked original. Once a hammer was used, it started braking apart like an old mirror.

[Bossjoe]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the advice. As requested, I'm attaching a few pics of the rust. It's most pronouced in teh floor-boards / firewalls: Rusted through. There's a liittle structural rust on the frame near te radiator. The rest is in the trunk bed, wheel wells, and around the headlights. I do have a welder and know a little welding. Things like the bed of the truck look like they might be easy to replace. So I guess the question will come down to what I "repair" with a POR15 type product, and what I replace with new metal.

Thanks again,

- joe

[Cees Klumper]

If I were you I would replace all rusted through areas. If you want to limit the amount of work, do at least the structural areas. Just a caution in addition to my story earlier in this thread, yesterday I went to clean up and paint the inner wheel wells as part of my complete restoration, and once again new perforated areas appeared where I wasn't expecting them, one part of the car's structure requiring a 16 gauge metal  piece fabricated and welded in. I don't want to be negative, but judging from your photos, I'd say there more that's not visible and you want to make sure it is addressed properly. Now on sections that aren't structural I guess you can use rust converter and fiberglass etc, but if at all possible (and it sounds like you have the tools and skills) I would really take care of things properly now.

[Bossjoe]

Thanks Cees. That's the way I'm leaning. I'm on no hurry, and am looking at this project as a test of my patience as much as anything else. Kind of a "Zen Motorcycle Maintenance" exercise. I know that I can do it correctly if I put my mind to it and take my time.

[Francis Abate]

I'd be happy to chat with you by phone and give you the benefit of my experience.  The short of it is, as others have said, to do it right you need to cut out the old rusted areas and patch or replace as a new panel.  It's a big job in any case. 

[Bonnyboy]

My car was also from Germany and had similar rust that was for the most part hidden behind undercoating and bondo and rivetted metal panels.   There is no amount of rust converter or Kitty Hair fiberglass that will fix the holes.  If you want to do it yourself get yourself some welding education from a local community college, a proper welder with tank of gas and a good auto darkening helmet and gloves etc, , a few angle grinders and air compressor with wire wheels in a drill, metal shears and a large beanbag to pound out your own metal panels and maybe a metal bending brake and slowly clean the areas, cut out rust and carefully weld new patches in one at a time.   I expect your inside rocker panels are also shot and for that you really should get the proper replacement panels or get them made by a professional who knows how to retain the structural integrity of the car.   Actually any of the structural parts need  proper panels to have the correct creases to keep the car strong.

This is not for the light of heart but with patience and some know how it can be fixed.   I used  16, 18 and 20 gauge "satin"  sheets (slight galvanized metal) to make patch panels but the rocker panels were made by a body man in his spare time with access to heavier galvanized metal and all the fancy bending equipment in an old time body shop.   

If I had to do it again I would probably do it the same again but the big thing is to remove all of the rust as "it never sleeps" even with the POR15 and various snake oils that promise it will.    After a few months of cutting and patching I became infatuated searching for rust and am pretty sure I found it all.  Then I soaked the car with a gallon of "Crown Rust Control" until the car dripped from every orifice.  In my searching for rust I found evidence of many poorly done rust fixes -  my favorite was the chicken wire, newspaper and bondo in one of the wells behind the seats  that I replaced with all new metal.     Pay attention to where drains should be so you don't accidentally collect unwanted water.

I found my work very "zennish" and I spent way more time than was worth it but for me it was entertainment.  My welding still sucks but so far the car is still holding together.   

[ja17]

Bonnyboy, before you can become a "good welder" you become a "good grinder" (from grinding down a lot of bad welds) !

[lreppond]

As Ian pointed out, “rust never sleeps”!   Sooner or later, you’ll need to bite the bullet and get this done correctly or you’ll be forever patching things while the rust gets even worse.  Getting your car in a healthy rust free state will not only preserve it but will make it safer as well.  If you think you can tackle the job yourself, have at it.  If not, seek the help of a qualified body shop.

[doitwright]

To anyone considering taking on a job like this. I wish the post from Stickandruderman where he showed photos of his 250SL restoration could be found. I cannot find it. He started with a car in at least as rough a shape as the car shown here. Stick has consistently demonstrated his restoration skills on this site. I know, even with determination and patience, I could not achieve the same results he was producing. I never would have attempted to. This is where skill and experience come into play. Do you really want to experiment on a W113 to learn a new craft.

As a fictional character once said,

"Just because a guy watches a lot of Bruce Lee movies means he knows how to do Karate"

Bobby Axelrod

[mauro12]

In my opinion if you have only rusted floor panels and trunk is a common rust area very easy to fix for any metal shop . Different matter is the rust in the wheel arches or near the firewall or even worst in the firewall area. All pagodas have some rust issues . Unfortunatly the quality of the coating 50
Years ago is not the same as today .

[AndrewB]

Stickandrudderman (Colin) is restoring a 1970 280SL for me. It was quite rough to start, so far he has stripped it and catalogued the parts, and the body shell has been acid dipped. This made clear where the shell needs to be repaired. Next step is to send it to his bodyshop for the repairs to be made, then back to the acid dippers followed by an electrolyte bath. I believe all panels need repair, some cab be retained whilst others will need complete replacement. Hopefully it will not rust again for decades. Will then be repainted in original colour of 906.

On a parallel path, the engine is being rebuilt and all of the parts that need plating or chroming are being done. There is a growing pile of parts waiting for reassembly once the shell is done. The axles have been rebuilt, and look fabulous.

Colin is a craftsman and it is a pleasure to see how much effort he is putting into getting all the details right. He has a lifetime of knowledge, and way more skill than I could ever bring to bear on such a project. He is basically going to deliver a new Pagoda when the project is done. My contribution is to scrounge for hard to find bits and pieces and to pay the bills !

Will set up a thread once the project has made more progress, if there is interest

Andrew

[dirkbalter]

Well, we all do things for different reasons. For me, the journey of restoring my own car is as satisfying as eventually driving it. By the time I am done, I could have bought an already restored car for the same amount money.
My car was similar to the one above. And of course, if you are starting a project like this, a certain skillset is necessary to do it right. However, one will learn a great deal of things along the way to perfect his skills and abilities. (Especially with a forum as good as this one and the help of experts that have done these multiple times over.)
I highly disagree with Frank (doitright) on the fact that my work will not be as good as some of the professional shops. I wouldn’t have started if I think I can’t aim for the best.
Now, if one cannot do the restauration or part of it themselves, a complete restaurtion by a professional shop will certainly be (significantly) more expensive than the pagoda is worth, should you have to sell it.
With respect to the above car and looking at the rust you can already see, I predict that the majority of the problems are still undetected and anything less than an almost complete restauration is waste of money and be a patch job that will have to be redone eventually.
You of course may disagree with me.

[Cees Klumper]

In my and my Lancia's case, I did decide to learn and practice on a relatively inexpensive car (the Lancia I got really cheap). In addition, I started with cutting, fabricating and welding in places that would be invisible once the car is finished: chassis, floor boards, inner fenders etc. I am sure my early results are 70% visually, and 95% functionally, on par with the average restoration shop's work. Once I got the hang of the metalwork and welding, I moved onto the visible sections, most notably the fenders. Those I am pretty sure I did as well as a good shop would have, honestly. It's so much fun and rewarding to see the car go from basket case to an as-good-as-new car, under my own amateur hands. Plus, a restoration like this would have easily cost over $50K to have done professionally, on a $30K car. 1,000 hours at ... $50-60 an hour?

Anyways ... Bossjoe, I hope you go for it and enjoy the process as much as I am.

The Volkswagen 411 I got a couple of weeks ago I am now readying for paint. Cutting, fabricating, welding etc. Ordered the paint yesterday ($308 delivered for a gallon mixed to the original factory color), it will be my practice car for the painting - as this is a $10K car - before I attempt to paint the $30K Lancia. All this so that I can eventually confidently do a full restoration on my Pagoda - that will then become a $100K car (luckily the engine is already done!).

[doitwright]

I highly disagree with Frank (doitright) on the fact that my work will not be as good as some of the professional shops. I wouldn’t have started if I think I can’t aim for the best.
Now, if one cannot do the restauration or part of it themselves, a complete restaurtion by a professional shop will certainly be (significantly) more expensive than the pagoda is worth, should you have to sell it.

Hey Dirk

I did not intend to imply that there aren’t people who could do a satisfactory job while learning at the same time. I said it wasn’t for me. I do understand that there is great satisfaction for accomplishing a task that you set your mind to do especially when you can show off your efforts.

However, go back to the beginning of this thread and read what was originally asked along with the photos presented. I’m not passing judgement on any individuals capability, but would caution anyone on getting involved in an endeavor that gets them into something that is way over their head. Not everyone has the tenacity or desire to follow through on such a challenge. And these photos represent a huge challenge. The world is full of projects that started with good intentions and then stalled. Perhaps BossJoe is willing to take on the task at hand but even considering a solution involving POR15 over removal of deteriorated components and replacement with properly shaped and fitted fresh metal should be an indication he needs some insight on what he is getting into.

[mauro12]

Guys , if your heart is strong enough , you can watch this video and see the common rust points . I’m trying to understand how is possible that a car has such a huge rust . Probably this car have been kept under the rain and snow for 50 years .
https://youtu.be/N1bO26l9fRE

[Pawel66]

Good video!

Yes, standing there since 1992 and repair after accident... But the video ends with optimism!

[mauro12]

It means an empty wallet and a lot of optimism 😁.

[Pawel66]

Right!

I used to be an optimist, now I am better informed...

I have just come across this: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1184387778697922&set=gm.4198314260188101

[Nicolas Aristodemou]

Having seen the photos I think it would be a pointless exercise to try and repair such corrosion perforated panels and structural members. Best leave it to professionals who would certainly replace all replaceable steel and only try to weld together non available parts (if any).

If the point of the exercise is to be educated and have hands on experience in fixing bodywork I would choose a less valuable car to experiment with......

[doitwright]

Having seen the photos I think it would be a pointless exercise to try and repair such corrosion perforated panels and structural members. Best leave it to professionals who would certainly replace all replaceable steel and only try to weld together non available parts (if any).

If the point of the exercise is to be educated and have hands on experience in fixing bodywork I would choose a less valuable car to experiment with......

Just as I stated in my earlier post. "This is where skill and experience come into play. Do you really want to experiment on a W113 to learn a new craft."

[johnk]

I am an amateur that has replaced a number of front clips, fenders, quarter panels and door skins in my earlier days. I would be afraid to attempt this car as it looks like the inner panels will need replacing as well and that requires a technical skill and knowledge that I do not possess.

[Cees Klumper]

Right!
I used to be an optimist, now I am better informed...

Definition of an optimist = someone who has not been given all the facts yet 

[Mike Hughes]

"Murphy" was an optimist:  Thing about it.  Murphy's Law states, " If anything can go wrong, it will."  If Murphy had been a pessimist, he would have said, "If anything can't go right, it won't!"

[vnaar123]

I just bought a pagoda and new to the car game.  Have some rust in engine bay and behind back fender.  Any ideas on how to remove/ repair? Greatly appreciate any feedback. thanks

[rwmastel]

I'm not a rust repair person, so I can't comment on the first picture.  The second pic is of the exhaust manifold.  Cleaning this up for appearance has been discussed several times.  Use our nice Search feature and look for "exhaust maifold paint" or "exhaust manifold finish" or "exhaust manifold blasting" or other appropriate terms.  We've been on-line 20 years, so there's a lot of information that can be found in the forums.  Full members can additionally search the Tech Manual for what has been compiled there.

[Pawel66]

I am not an expert either and what I would do is to have my car inspected by a professional.

If all the rust is what you show, this would be pretty good.

The exhaust manifold, I would say, is nothing urgent. It looks fairly normal, it can be refreshed at some stage.

The rust in the back - again a professional would tell you if it is just surface rust or a small preludium to an exciting adventure.

[stickandrudderman]

All exhaust manifolds look like this unless someone has felt the need to apply some finish in order to improve it aesthetically.
In my 42 years working on these cars I've not yet seen a manifold that has come anywhere near rusting through. Broken or cracked? yes. Problems through rust alone? None.
Removing a manifold simply in order to make it look better or in the quest for whatever tiny performance improvement might be again by changing the thermal properties simply exposes one to the potential for snapped studs, rounded nuts and/or cracked flanges.
If ever there was a better example of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", than the exhaust manifold I'm yet to see it.