Where can I go to find the original motor serial number for my car?

[CJHenderson]

Where can I go to find the original motor serial number for my car? I have doubts that this is the actual motor that came with my car.

[Vander]

Driver side of the motor, towards the back. Just below where the head bolts to the block. You will need a flashlight and maybe clean off some grime to read it.

Then compare that to the data card to confirm if it is "numbers matching".

[MikeSimon]

CJ: If you don't have some form of original paper record, it will be difficult to determine what the original serial number is. But from the info on the other thread with the picture of the serial number of your engine, I would assume, the number is the original one. They restamped it to match when they reworked the engine. Unless some PO used a replacement engine that came form somewhere else. Compare the engine serial with the VIN number of the car and determine if it at least falls in the correct sequence.

[Vander]

E-mail classicdatacards@mbusa.com
Pay $150 and provide proof of ownership

[114015]

Yes...,
Get your car's datacard first.
Always consider the engine serial number is lower than the VIN serial number.
 

[Benz Dr.]

And it mostly means nothing.     

[MikeSimon]

And it mostly means nothing. 

Tall statement. If you consider that most all buyers out there are willing to pay a premium for a car that has an original engine. And most all owners strive to have an original pair chassis/engine.

The reason VIN numbers are higher than engine numbers is simple: The cars' chassis numbers were all in one sequence, while the engine numbers were assigned in two sequences, one for manual and one for automatic. You can still deduct, to an extend, if any given engine number falls into the range that was used for a certain VIN.

[Benz Dr.]

Tall statement. If you consider that most all buyers out there are willing to pay a premium for a car that has an original engine. And most all owners strive to have an original pair chassis/engine.

The reason VIN numbers are higher than engine numbers is simple: The cars' chassis numbers were all in one sequence, while the engine numbers were assigned in two sequences, one for manual and one for automatic. You can still deduct, to an extend, if any given engine number falls into the range that was used for a certain VIN.

Well, OK then.  Show me an auction where someone paid more for matching numbers on a 113?  It means nothing if you can stamp in new numbers into a replacement block. How much does it mean then?
On some cars that can be cloned, yes, it means everything. You can't clone a 280SL from a lesser car. You can change the engine but not the car.

I've gotten used to making tall statements around here. My odds have remained solid over the long haul. 

[Cees Klumper]

My 280 SL was the best (and most expensive) around when I made my choice to buy it. It did not have its original engine and I didn't mind. I since installed a factory replacement engine without any number. I have the proper dies to stamp in the original engine number, but I have not as I prefer to leave it blank.

[john.mancini]

I'm getting off topic and I hate to admit it, but I have to agree with Dan here . I've sold more than a dozen W113's over the years. Not once, I repeat, not once, did the buyer ask if the engine was original to the car. Collector cars like 50's and 60's Corvettes, Shelbys, high performance Mustangs, Porsches, different story. Verification of engine codes, numbers and dates were a priority for those purchases to take place. Dan hits the "nail on the head", you can't forge a W113. There's only one engine option. Those other brands had base models that were often turned into phony high performance clones. With 113's, original engines are nice to have, but I don't think it impacts price that much, if at all, with most buyers. Just my opinion.

[MikeSimon]

You may like it or not, but arguably the highest amounts for collectible cars are currently paid on BaT. More than any other, even live, auctions.
There, any SL for sale is being scrutinized for being original and having a data card, which will provide evidence of original options and components.
You try to sell your SL and claim the engine doesn't matter, good luck.

i don't say it matters to me, I am saying it matters. To the majority of people who are in the market to buy. It falls in the same category as the "fender notches"...

[Benz Dr.]

You may like it or not, but arguably the highest amounts for collectible cars are currently paid on BaT. More than any other, even live, auctions.
There, any SL for sale is being scrutinized for being original and having a data card, which will provide evidence of original options and components.
You try to sell your SL and claim the engine doesn't matter, good luck.

i don't say it matters to me, I am saying it matters. To the majority of people who are in the market to buy. It falls in the same category as the "fender notches"...

We are actually on the same page but maybe in a different book. Just like the people who think they have a classic car because it's older than they are, so too it goes with matching numbers. Call your car a matching number, fender notched, barn-find, classic, and the "educated" will slobber all over themselves to own it.

What the car is and the actual condition are what gives a car value. If matching numbers happens to be part of that formula, I'll buy that. On our cars, not so much.

[1000nutsnbolts]

Hey Folks.

Look I realize that I was getting far afield on the original posting about the location of engine number. I will re-post in the appropriate place.

Thanks for your patience.

[Shvegel]

I wonder how many people realize that the transmission, rear axle and engine all have recorded serial numbers?  IS it still "Numbers matching" if the door locks have  been changed?

[Benz Dr.]

I wonder how many people realize that the transmission, rear axle and engine all have recorded serial numbers?  IS it still "Numbers matching" if the door locks have  been changed?

Yes, that right. But so do the front spindles, steering box, IP, and even the chassis of the car. I guess it comes down to have far someone wants to take it.

[john.mancini]

Dan, I hate to keep agreeing with you, but when you wrote "What the car is and the actual condition are what gives a car value. ......", You could not have been more correct. Condition, on these Pagodas, is the key for many knowledgable collectors. Now, that being said, Mike's point that "numbers matching" has become important to many buyers, is also correct. It's part of today's collector car culture. Just read some of the "expert" comments on "Bring a Trailer".   

[Benz Dr.]

Dan, I hate to keep agreeing with you, but when you wrote "What the car is and the actual condition is what gives a car value. ......", You could not have been more correct. Condition, on these Pagodas, is the key for many knowledgable collectors. Now, that being said, Mike's point that "numbers matching" has become important to many buyers, is also correct. It's part of today's collector car culture. Just read some of the expert comments on "Bring a Trailer".   

  I run into " experts " every day and it's how I've been able to stay around for over 40 years.

[MikeSimon]

Sellers do not determine the value of the car. Buyers do. Sorry for that.

[Rahul]

Some of the sales on BaT are mindboggling (ref the recent car that sold for $108k!),and the comment sections are a great mix of auction participants (and non-participants) that either blow smoke up the vehicle's backside unnecessarily ("this is the best I've ever seen, surely goes for >100k??"), or get incredibly hung up on what are seemingly less-important details.

Having said that, is there not a fairly simple test here - if you were presented with two cars at the same cost, identical in every single way, mechanically and aesthetically, and with respect to originality and performance. One has a replacement engine, one has a numbers-matching original engine. Which would you choose?

If the answer is the one with the original engine (as it would be for me), does that not mean it is more desireable to the buyer, and should command some premium, however small?

Having said that, I do agree that there are more important factors at play when choosing the right car.

[bogeyman]

So if I bought a new w113 back in the day and for some reason the factory determined that my engine needed replacement on warranty, that would somehow make my car worth less than one that did not encounter the problem, correct?

[Iconic]

Correct, at least for some people, including me.
My "dream" is to have a factory fresh 50 year old car.
That dream does not include a car that has been disassembled and reassembled after it's initial assembly on the production line.
I can't say everyone thinks like this, but some people do. On a nice car, it only takes a couple of people to value that originality and drive the price up in an auction setting.
By the way, I DO NOT own this mythical factory fresh car and I'm very confident I never will.

[49er]

I have mentioned this before but my engine was replaced back in may 1970 under factory warranty at 20K miles due to the excessive oil consumption that was found in some defective 280 engines. No engine block number but no more oil consumption either which was way more important to me.

John

[MikeSimon]

I don't know, but if the engine was replaced in 1970 under warranty, it was factory/dealer procedure to re-apply the original engine number to the block.
I am not arguing that an original "Tauschaggregat" would diminish the value, I am saying that an engine replaced at random without regard to the original one will. Even if the car is in otherwise mint condition.

[teahead]

#s matching became important in the past 25 years because people were selling SS Camaro big blocks and 67 435hp 427 Vettes wanna-bes.

Those cars no evidence in the VIN alone what engine came in those cars.  They require external documentation to prove it's what it is.

VIN on a W113 shows clearly if it's a 230, 250, 280 SL.


The 14-digit VIN consists of the the 4-6th digits as:

                                  042 is the 230SL
                                  043 is the 250SL
                                  044 is the 280SL

[MikeSimon]

In addition the next two digits say if it was a LHD or RHD car and if it was Manual or Automatic. That is also shown in the engine serial number. So, you should not have a "10" engine in a "12" car, although it will fit and work perfectly fine.

[Bonnyboy]

I just have to chime in.   When my Dad originally bought the car in the early 80's,  one of the selling features over another 280sl that was on the lot was that it had a factory replacement engine (with only 30,000 kilometres) that was a euro version engine correct for 1969/70.   

When I went to the Mercedes dealer to get parts several years back, they were initially confused so called out a mechanic from the back.   The old mechanic explained to the counter guy what the engine was and he gave me the thumbs up saying that the factory replacement engines were bullet proof.      To him it was just a part number like a brake caliper or a radiator.

I would say that to me, a factory replacement engine is more desirable than the original.   I got my car to drive rather than somebody looking for an alternative to Bonds or Gold.   

[Iconic]

I like teahead's argument.
It is very logical.
BUT, the market/buyers are not logical (or we would all be driving Toyota Camry's).
The market is what it is.
Enjoy the holidays !!
Mark

[MarkCan]

BUT, the market/buyers are not logical (or we would all be driving Toyota Camry's).
Mark

What’s wrong with the Camry? 🍿
Just kidding, sorry.

As for the matching numbers and all, I have a very simple approach to it. If you happen to have a car like that, excellent. On the same token I wouldn’t discount an example of a car or a solid project base where this was not a case. It’s all about appreciation and personal satisfaction. Can a perfect Pagoda sitting behind the glass bring more satisfaction than a well sorted weekend warrior? No way, at least not for me.

[teahead]

Would rather have an original hood than engine

[john.mancini]

You just need to watch Bob Waldman's great video that highlights "What to look for in buying a Pagoda". Not much emphasis on original engine blocks. I agree with Bob Waldman. For me, I would much rather see matching numbers in the original body panels. Original spot welds, no rust, no body repairs. A laser straight Pagoda with great door, hood and trunk gaps, for me, is much more valuable than a Bondo filled original block car. These are not Corvettes, where the engine block often determines the value. Condition is the key with Pagodas.

That being said, if having an original engine block floats your boat, go for it.

[teahead]

Funny about #s matching...

you hear about this all the time on Chevys etc.  However, that term will also included RE-STAMPED blocks!  So if buying a "#s matching" car, you must also ask them if that's the original engine or not.