Author Topic: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up  (Read 5246 times)

PSB

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Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« on: December 03, 2020, 23:18:12 »
Hello,

My 65 230SL runs well, always stars first time but does seem to have excessive fuel consumption.
Today I noticed, by accident , that when starting up and for a few seconds the exhausts emits a significant amount of black particles almost like chimney soot. I put my hand in for 2 seconds front of the exhaust ( not revving ) and the result is in the photo.
After the engine runs a bit I put my hand in front of the exhaust again  and no soot , I just get a damp feeling in my hand.  If I drive for 15 minutes then restart then I get the soot again. There is no visible smoke but quite a heavy exhaust smell.
What can this be ?

Regards
Pedro

ja17

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 05:45:18 »
This condition is not unusual on pre-emission automobiles of the past. They ran quite "dirty" on cold start ups. Of coarse, it is hard to tell from here, if your condition is worse than normal. Removal of a shim or two under the WRD ( warm up device) will lean the cold warm-up of the injection system without big changes after warm-up
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 08:44:15 »
Black soot is a sure sign of over-fuelling and since you complain of heavy fuel consumption the two are inextricably linked.
Before going for the "advanced" adjustments are you sure it's not just in need of a proper tune-up?

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 19:29:13 »
Thanks both for the feedback.
Even on warm starts it gives off this soot. I drive it for about 20 minutes, then if it rests for a few minutes and I restart it will shoot off this heavy soot.
I have spent quite a bit of money on yearly tune ups ( tried MB classic center , other place that just handles classics with lots of e type jags etc , another place that does German classics mainly Porsches , etc )... But I always had this heavy smell on start up and it's always had very high fuel consumption. Just didn't link the smell to soot as I was always in the car when I started it up.  None of these guys ever raised any issue .... But I'm sure there is one.

stickandrudderman

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2020, 11:13:25 »
Take it to any place that can measure Co and HC from the exhaust and let us have the readings.
There's sure to be a local place that can do that.

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2020, 22:35:02 »
Thanks Stick I'll do that and let you know.
We had "summer" until this weekend but now its forecast rain for a week ...so as soon as I get a weather break
Regards
Pedro

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2020, 15:00:51 »
Stick,

Took the car today to a place that certifies if the car is roadworthy ( your MOT certificate I believe ).  My certificate is valid until 2022 as it was classified as a vehicle of historic interest by the Portuguese classic car register of the ACP ( local equivalent of RAC ) so it was a voluntary inspection....luckily otherwise the car would have failed based on only one issue : emissions . Maximum allowed for classic cars is 4,5% CO and my car had almost 10% ... Every thing else was ok.
Here is a photo of the emission test result . With Portuguese titles but I'm sure it's understandable.
I believe this is an issue from the day I bought the car in 2016 and no one has really been able , OT focused or concerned or knowledgeable enough to sort it out even though I raise it every year when taken for service . As I also said fuel consumption is very high . Guy at the inspection center said he would suspect too much fuel being injected .
Thanks
Pedro

Peter h

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2020, 15:54:47 »
Trying out will only benefit the workshop at some point. I give you the advice to overhaul the injection pump.
Peter
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2020, 19:55:59 »
Both your Co and your HC are way too high. If you lower your Co to around 4% you may find the HC will lower too but at those numbers I suspect there's an underlying issue. I consider anything more than 600HC to be worthy of investigation but a good engine will have the HC down at 200.
HC is unburned fuel so with high HC you have a combustion problem which can be caused by a whole host of things. You'll need to start with basics like compression, valve clearances and ignition timing.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 10:14:55 by stickandrudderman »

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2020, 23:29:36 »
Thank you both for the inputs.
Need to decide on the approach ...I can't judge as I'm an absolute zero regarding anything close to a car engine....and 3 different garages have done the "tune up" of the car over the last 3 years with no success in this matter, worse actually not referring that anything was wrong ! I actually think both emissions and consumption have actually gotten worse over last couple of yeRs.
Strangely though the car does seem to drive very well....

Peter h

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2020, 07:38:47 »
With lots of gasoline, you'll all do well
Peter
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2020, 13:24:00 »
It looks like the CO measurement at 9.99% exceeds the diagnostic machine's max limit - meaning the real CO could be (much) higher even than 10%.
Could be a leaky cold start valve, which maybe explains why there is the black soot on warm starts as well as the high fuel consumption. It's just always adding fuel to the mixture. I believe this can be easily checked by removing the little bolt on the side of it and turning on the ignition - check the technical manual or search the site.
Cees Klumper
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PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2020, 15:11:19 »
Thanks Cees,

I've tried searching but my zero mechanical knowledge is a big limiting factor here. Can't make anything of the things I found....Chinese to me . All I can do is collect these inputs to try to pass onto a mechanic .
But regarding your input ... If I unscrew it and start the ignition what is the expected result that would tell me something ?

Regards
Pedro

Cees Klumper

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2020, 21:10:01 »
If with the ignition on fuel drips out of the small hole that the bolt goes in, then the valve is leaking fuel constantly and needs to be repaired or replaced. That is my understanding at least.
Other possible causes in addition to Stick's suggestions that I would (ask your mechanic to) look into are poorly adjusted gas linkages, faulty barometric compensator on the fuel injection pump, leaking fuel injectors, misadjusted fuel injection pump.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 21:14:10 by Cees Klumper »
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
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PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2020, 22:38:22 »
Being a pain ...but I really want to collect your suggestions to take to the mechanic.
Today I had a look around the engine bay and notice that
1) there seems to be fuel/oil leaking around the no 1 spark plug and
2) another connection near it ( fuel line into the head ?) .
3) fuel injectors connection 1 and 5
See photos

Clearly the car is leaving an oil type puddle on the floor .
Also
4) after driving if I open the trunk/boot it smells of petrol. When not driven recently , no smell.
Does this give any pointers to the potential problem or could it be unrelated to my emission/smell soot and  too rich mixture problem . .?
Regards
Pedro

Bonnyboy

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2020, 00:33:34 »
Pedro - re the smell in the boot -that could be the gasket over the sending unit in the top of the tank - put a paper towel tube over that and sniff to see if it smells bad - my guess though is the little fabric flexible hoses on the vents that exit the fuel tank to the passenger side - mine are very "aromatic".  You may need to remove the fuel filler cover bracket.      Also if they come out ok check that the tank isn't rusted through on top where the flexible cushions are located.  You would need to drop the tank a bit and be careful they are heavier than they look and if you open the bung on the bottom there is no stopping the fuel that will come out and in a hurry - be careful with gasoline - have a fire extinguisher handy just in case.   
Ian
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Charles 230SL

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2020, 01:53:18 »
Pedro, that oil leak in your 2nd and 3rd photo is coming from the tachometer cable: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=13061.msg88712#msg88712. Your tachometer drive needs a new seal. MB part number is 007-997- 7346; here's a link with a picture:  https://www.authenticclassics.com/Seal-Ring-for-Mercedes-Speedometer-Drive-p/auth-008887.htm. This leak is a fairly common problem (I had to replace mine 3 years ago).

That oil leak around the number 1 plug is most likely coming from the rocker arm pivot above the spark plug. I had this same problem a few years ago: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16157.msg111691#msg111691

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2020, 08:39:08 »
Thank you both for the inputs.
Collecting info for the mechanic.
So that in the 3rd photo is  the tachometer cable ! Embarrassing .....I thought it was the fuel  line.... Little knowledge is a dangerous thing ..

Regards
Pedro

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2020, 22:24:06 »
Hi Cees,

Is this the cold start valve you were referring to in my issue with the excessive co2 emissions and too rich mixture ?
Also when you refer to removing the screw and then turning on the ignition ...it is just turning the key not actually starting the engine , right ?

Regards
Pedro

mrfatboy

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2020, 23:20:38 »
Pedro.

Take a look here.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/ColdStartValve


I would also advise taking some time and skim over the Tech Manual. You don’t have to understand everything but just skim through for the basics and orient yourself with the engine and components. 👍
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 12:13:01 by mrfatboy »
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PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2020, 12:03:59 »
Very helpful thanks .
At least that check I can easily do now .
I've joined full membership now and will take up your suggestion of "going through " the tech manual to become a little bit less ignorant .... At my mechanical knowledge level improving a bit is very easy !

Thanks
Pedro

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2020, 18:20:51 »
One item checked and off the potential problem list .... The CSV after the screw is removed and ignition on does not leak at all.
This was the easy check for me once I found out where the CSV was ....
I think all other checks will need to be done by a mechanic unfortunately.
I started the car today with some cardboard against the exhaust pipes and wow just 2 seconds and it was totally black .....lots of black soot on the bumper and floor as well, deflected by the cardboard . I noticed the soot is actually pretty wet , almost gunge like.

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2020, 18:25:27 »
The photos ... Frightening!

Mike Hughes

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2020, 19:57:40 »
Think back to high school chemistry class:
 
Combustion is the chemical reaction of combining a hydro carbon with oxygen, which results in carbon dioxide and water.  Combining excessive amounts of a hydrocarbon in the reaction will result in carbon dioxide, water, and carbon.  So the black soot is nothing more than a sign of a too-rich mixture, while the water in the black grunge is nothing more than a normal byproduct of combustion.

Plain steel exhaust systems need to be periodically replaced because the water in the exhaust pipes and mufflers makes them rust out.  Stainless steel systems help to take care of that problem.  However, Milady's sooty stockings and and pants legs will be a source of lively conversation until the rich mixture problem is addressed.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
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col320ce

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2020, 22:58:44 »
I'd check that the warm running device is turning off... It will stop sicking in air if it's shutting off correctly when warm.
Col

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hansr433

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2020, 17:52:54 »
Pedro, there is a member of this forum who lives in Portugal and who might be able to steer you in the direction of a mechanic who knows what he is doing.  His forum name is PeterPortugal and I suggest sending him a private message.

My W111 220SE is also suffering from excessive fuel consumption, and I am starting with valve clearances etc, etc.

Good luck

Hans
Hans
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PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 00:23:39 »
Thanks for the continued responses. I'm trying to compile a checklist.
Hans, thanks I will contact Peter .
Regards
Pedro

PeterPortugal

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2020, 07:57:05 »
Hi Pedro,

Got your message and here is a useful quote for you from another forum member from Lisbon...I will send his email to you via personal message. I can also help you to understand some of the technical issues being explained e.g. removing shims in the WRD, etc.

"Hi Peter,

I had a bad experience with the Mercedes Classic Center, near Lisbon.
Then I met some people who recommended Ludgero Carreira, who has a shop in Mafra (60km from Lisbon).
He restored my entire car and did a fantastic job, plus he is an excellent person.
Old fashion shop, one old school mechanic, does a lot in house and knows who does the rest.
He used to repair / restore other cars, but recently focused is Mercedes.
When you come to Lisbon, we can arrange for a short visit.

Cheers

Francisco"
1963 220se Cabrio
1968 280se Coupe

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2020, 09:07:03 »
Thanks Peter.
I got your PM
Regards
Pedro

mauro12

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2021, 21:59:02 »
I have a similar issue with my car. CO2 % around 9 and during cold starts I have a similar issue . My final belief is that the injection pump would need to be overhauled . I adjusted the valves , checked and tested csv, wrd and fuel injectors .
Honestly I’m a bit scared to remove and overhaul the pump , I read many story about having problems even after rebuilding the pump .
Many of this car suffers from this condition I guess .
Mauro Pisani
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PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2021, 16:54:11 »
Hi Bonny,

The "new " mechanic has finally had the availability to start with my car. Petrol smell  in the boot ... You were right ... The gasket was in very bad condition. Seems solved . The tank was new ( from 3 years ago) ... Apparently the basked not ! Thanks .

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2021, 16:55:57 »
Thanks, tachometer leak solved with a new "gasket" and retightning

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2021, 17:12:11 »
Ok, so the mechanic has managed some significant improvements .... HC to 388 ( from previous 4600 )... And CO% to 5.58 ( from a 9.99 which was the maximum the meter read ) and the very bad exhaust smell, thick particles /fumes have stopped. The black soot and moisture remains in the cold start but no longer once hot.
He has also suggested a new stainless steel exhaust pipe as not essential but likely to cause some additional improvement on the soot/moisture.
The one thing strange to me is the CO2 % has gone up significantly.....11,9% from 5,3. In the MOT /roadworthy tests here want counts though is CO and not CO2.
See the new and prior test results in the attachments

PSB

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Re: Exhaust emitting black particles at start up
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2021, 17:26:17 »
Mauro,

See posts from a few minutes ago.
My co2 has gone up but the smell/HC /CO have gone down significantly which would be what would cause the car to fail roadworthy renewal tests due in 10 months time .
The soot is now only visible on cold starts.
The mechanic justified the main improvement on a tune up of the very excessive fuel being fed into the engine.
He is still checking valves , solenoids etc . Is not volunteering to touch the injection ( says he would send it to Bosch service and not do it himself ) has he believes the engine itself is "old and tired" and would not be worth it doing injectors without redoing the whole engine . Says car ok to run around and have fun ( I tested it and was same good feeling without the excessive emissions) and any further significant improvement would have to come from a full rebuild as compression ratios are low on all cylinders ( first 2 are at 7psi, next 2 7,5 and last 2 around 8.2) and leak tests ( not sure if correct words here ) are in the 60-70%.  Another issue was an oil leak which has been identified as oil being pushed out of the dipstick holding cylinder cause supposedly by the pressure inside engine . I struggle to follow the explanations but I can try get more detail.