New Pagoda Owner problem with starting

[youngtimersgarage]

Hey guys proud new owner of a 1964 Mercedes 230SL. The car was sitting for 20 years until I stumbled upon it, the gentlemen I bought it from was in a band off boulevard. He purchased the car from Florida from the original owner in 1979. I am the third owner. Heres what I have done to try and get it running.

dropped fuel tank had it cleaned and resealed. Changed fuel filter, rebuilt fuel pump. The old fuel was like varnish and and tar. Cleaned out the main line and return fuel line. changed all fluids, waterpump, thermostat, belts, fi pump oil as well as fuel hoses and coolant hoses. When putting the new plugs in and firing the car up for the first time it ran very rich and would stall. It then would not want to start. I then got another new fuel filter and new fuel injectors and cleaned of the fuel injection lines. I checked all of the new plugs and they were black except cylinder 2 and 4. Fuel was not getting to cylinder 2 and 4 so I the took the tops off the fi pump and hand cranked the engine and two of the pistons were getting stuck. after some cleaning and hand cranking the pistons freed up. the car fired up after cranking for a while and spark plugs on cylinder 2 and 4 were black like all of the others.

Now the car starts after cranking for a long time and it will run for 2 min and the stall. when running if I give the car gas it will not respond and stall this does not happen every time the car is running. I also adjusted the mixture on the back of the fi pump it was turned full right i moved it 12 clicks left and there was no noticeable difference. I tested the compression on the cylinders but my tester was showing 120 on every cylinder but bouncing around so I think my tester is broken ? I just want to drive this thing already haha

your help is greatly appreciated!

[ja17]

Make sure the rack is free in the injection pump. You can take the little round cover off the front of the IP and view it move in and out depending on throttle position and rpms. It must move back and fourth freely. Next the WRD is most likely stuck. This is a warm up regulator (called warm running device WRD), mounted on the back top of the  IP. It regulates fuel and air during the engine warming period. It is probably stuck and if so can cause your rich running problems. Avoid adjusting the injection pump mixture until all else is corrected. Ask questions and dig into the vast amount of information on these items on this site.

[youngtimersgarage]

Hello and thank you for your response. I took the wrd apart and cleaned it . There was some gasket maker applied there is that common? There was no copper washer . If I reassemble do i need anything ? Also i do not see a nut at the front of my pump to be able to crank the shaft . There were two wires hanging loose when I got the car they were for the solenoid on the back of the pump i connected them not sure if the right way pictures attached. The car still is not starting

[mrfatboy]

Here is the picture of the rack access port. Some pumps have a nut covering it others have a removable rubber cap.

You can find more details in the tech manual.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/Injection

[youngtimersgarage]

Ok got it, I opened that threaded cap woth a 10mm socket and watched as someone cranked the motor and there was no back and forth movement

[mrfatboy]

I think the rack is buried in there and you will not see it unless you screw in a 4 or 5mm diameter rod that is about 40mm long to extend it.

[youngtimersgarage]

Ok i was able to break the shaft
Free it travels back and forth but i have a short screw so im not sure if its still not getting stuck further back. The car fired right up no hesitation. But eventually stalls. So it sounds like somthing in that pump is still getting stuck or sticking. Since there is now fuel in the pump what can I do to try and free this thing up. I have had all the pistons traveling prior perhaps they are getting stuck again. So close haha

[mrfatboy]

How soon does it stall?  Can you keep the engine going at higher revs? After it stalls can you start it right up again?

[youngtimersgarage]

I was able to start it right up after i moved the position of the shaft. I gave it gas it sputtered but did rev a bit higher then ran and then died. Cranked again fired up was about to die gave it gas and it choked out. Seems like moving the shaft changes the way it fires. Prior to any of this when the shaft was stuck you could hardly get it to fire after cranking for a very long time.

I also cleaned that wrd and teated the thermo and it works . I switched the wiring on the solenoid too i think i had it wrong not sure which side brown and black go to.

[Cees Klumper]

Hesitate to mention this since I don't know that much about this, but did the fuel tank refinishing place know about the intricacies of this particular design tank? The flower pot? Did they open it all the way up? Because it sounds like it could be a fuel starvation issue.

[Jordan]

You say you cleaned the WRD but did you test to see if it is actually working?  Take the filter off the front of the WRD.  Start the car cold and then tap your finger over the hole where the filter screws in.  You should fell a suction.  As the car warms up the suction will decrease and eventually there will be no suction when the engine has warmed up.  If you get no suction or the suction doesn't go away when the engine warms up you know it isn't working correctly.

[youngtimersgarage]

I hope they did as they have been doing it for 30 years its an oldschool place. He put two access holes and it took about 3 weeks as he didnt want to rush it. But then again id have to see inside the tank myself

[youngtimersgarage]

Update , today I took the top of the pump apart again and confirmed the pistons were moving up and down when engine cranked. The rack on the front of the ip moves them left to right , my question is does that rack have a stopping/locking point . When the engine is cranked should that rack move back and forth or lock into place.

I removed the screen in the fuel pump and it was cakes up cleaned it out reinstalled and still the cars not cranking.

Checked compression all cylinders good. Checked spark on all plugs and they were good. Before i had all new plugs fouled and the car would run for a bit and then die. Now i have cylinder 4 with a clean plug.

I checked all lines and not all lines were getting fuel at the injectors. I cracked the line at pump and no fuel ! I had fuel at the pump before.

On top of all this there is coolant coming out of the csv into my throttle body and im thinking this is chocking the car out so weird.

So close yet so far. Not sure what to do next pull the pump to rebuild but yet it seems all is freed up and the car did fire up right away when I freed the rack. Losing sleep over here haha

[mrfatboy]

The rack is constantly moving forward and backward depending on the engine fuel needs. More fuel forward , less fuel backwards.

Coolant coming out of CSV??  That’s an issue.

[youngtimersgarage]

Ok so then somthing is still stuck in my pump ? because the rack only moved a little bit when cranking then never moved but the pistons would continue moving when cranking. Yes the coolant is an issue i know there is a coolant line going to the csv but why the hell did it start pissing fluid out if nowhere ? I also took off the solenoid on the back of the ip to make sure it was pushed it so it does not break off as I have heard they do. Weird thing is the car was running off of a gas canister but misfiring prior to reinstalling the cleaned and resealed tank.

[jim 56]

I usually don't jump into these things as there are people on this site that have sooooo much more knowledge then I do.That said I do not see if you checked the fuel pressure.I installed a gauge in the feed line.Read the tech manual and other posts.You need at least 12 psi to pump.You also have to check the return line.I checked mine at the tank.You should fill a 1 liter bottle in 15 seconds.

[youngtimersgarage]

Can anyone else shed some light on this topic

[jim 56]

I believe this is in the tech manual.I had something similar I would get fuel to some cylinders but not others.I believe it was JA17
who replied that might be my problem.I only had 10 psi or so.I had fuel pump rewound new seals brushes etc..Now I had 14 PSI at inlet to injector pump.I also had the check valve in the return out of the injection pump was all gummed up.(I don't know if your injection pump has this).Now it runs.

[ja17]

Good advice from jim 56, check the fuel pressure and volume. In addition to the screen in the fuel tank, there is another small screen in the intake fitting of the electric fuel pump on all except the earliest pumps. This screen is most likely plugged if your tank was clogged.

[youngtimersgarage]

update, the fuel pressure at the cold start valve is at 12psi but I noticed that my points are pitted so that may be a big problem. I will be replacing that tmrw and hopefully that will fix the problem. I cleaned out the filter on the electric fuel pump and the screen in the tank is new., I also replaced the fuel filter.

[jim 56]

you should still check for the 1 liter in 15 seconds out of the fip

[youngtimersgarage]

Jim, I will also check that today

[Pawel66]

Check it at the end of return line. Give the pump 5-10 minutes of work to warm up.

[youngtimersgarage]

UPDATE 


So everything is gone over and the problem lies within the pump. For the 5th time took the top of the fi pump apart then poored laquer thinner and let it sit for 2 days. Cleaned all of that out and then changed the oil in the pump as well. The car fired up when moving the rack a certain position. All of the pistons are free etc. The car ran for an hour I drove it up and down the driveway and then it died. Trouble firing once again unless changing the position for the rack on the fi pump. the rock travels lightly back and fourth and when you hit the throttle linkage it moved more. It did get firmly stuck once.  Am I out of options does the pump have to come out or could it be something else ?

[FresnoBob]

I highly recommend having your pump rebuilt by Gus at Pacific Fuel Injection - (650) 588-8880.  He is in South San Francisco and the most knowledgeable guy in the US and he will totally rebuild and test your pump for roughly $2k.  I just had mine rebuilt and the car runs fantastically, after also sitting for 24 years.  I also suggest clearing the cold start valve, pulling it away from the manifold and putting a large ziplock bag around it and try starting your car.  The fuel should make a round spray pattern.  If not, your nozzles could be clogged. 

Good luck!

[youngtimersgarage]

Great to hear I know that this is my final problem haha I just dont want to believe it. I reached out to  https://seideldieselgroup.com/contact/locations/boca-raton-fl/ and was quoted 1450 for the rebuild they are located in Florida. I am in Chicago would love to find someone local. Did you remove yours on your own if so was it difficult and how was reinstallation?

Thanks !

[ja17]

Removal and installation of the pump is not such a bad job. We can help you through it if you decide to take it off.  If you drove it around for about an hour you are getting closer. Sounds like you may have an ignition problem also if your points are getting burnt. Make sure you have the correct coil with matching ballast resistor or your car will never run right for long. Keep an eye on the fuel pressure, since it does not take much dirt to plug the little screen in the electric fuel pump. Once the fuel pressure drops below 12 psi. all kinds of strange running and starting problems happen.

[Shvegel]

Also check that the condenser is on the negative side of the coil if not mounted on the distributor. 

[Leester]

Sounds like you are isolating problem areas. After sitting all that time, I am amazed that your fuel pump (not the injection pump but the one near the fuel tank at the rear) is working that well. 

If you end up needing a fuel pump rebuild, I heartily suggest Bob Youngman (Baron Youngman on this site) if you have the short pump. He rebuilt mine and it came back almost as a work of art. He uses materials not available when these pumps were new and has rebuilt several hundred of them. He guarantees his rebuilds for three years. Your car would have originally had the "long pump" but its possible a previous owner replaced the long pump with the short pump. As Joe Alexander pointed out, if you don't get at least 12 psi, lots of weird things will happen.

Good luck tracking down your issues. Lots of help on this site.

Lee

[youngtimersgarage]

I know Bob he is a friend of mine. I rebuilt the fuel pump meaning replaced the o rings cleaned the filters and changed the impeller. I am getting 13psi at the furthers point of the car the cold start solenoid. My car has a short pump.

Thank you ☺️

[youngtimersgarage]

Hey guys my pump finally came back from being fully rebuilt by mechanical fuel injection. I thought I had everything set correctly 20 atdc and the pump gears were alligned prior to installation. the car barely fired up it took about 10 min of cranking and then giving it gas . When it did fire up it kept backfiring like crazy in the intake and the exhaust.  Is my pump timing off or is somthing else wrong  ?

[Pinder]

Did you check the timing?
Also if you have points replace them with electronic setup.They are a pain. I could never get them right. I replaced using crane system. My fuelpump was also not free and i took it out and hookend it up to a power drill abd used all sorts of liquids including sea foam etc to stop it locking up. Eventually it loosended up and worked after i put it back but i think you are ahead of the game with a rebuilt pump. Other things to check is your fuelpump. You can get a carter pump if you have any doubts and keep it as a backup. Also add an extra filter from tank to pump. I used a wix filter and its clear so you can see if its any crap in it from the tank. My gas tank was blocked up solid.

[youngtimersgarage]

Hey thanks for the reply. We had the timing set to 20 atdc and the pump timing was also lined up. Ive gone through everything on the car lol resealed gas tank fuel filters etc. plus wires caps rotors you name it. Im going to check if we had the timing set properly upon reinstall perhaps its off 180 for some odd reason.
 

[ja17]

Be careful that an ignition problem is not the root of your trouble. Backfiring through the intake can mean a lean running problem. Check the fuel pressure and volume again. You might also want to visit the intake fitting screen on your electric fuel pump to make sure it is clear.

[Shvegel]

I just went through the same thing with a friend who was starting their car after a restoration.  As a professional Mechanic I would have sworn it was a fuel issue.  It turned out to be ignition related.  The condenser had been moved from the distributor to the coil and it was connected to the positive side of the coil.  The points were burned from a couple minutes running.  I seem to recall you had some issues ordering a Pertronix igniter?  Install it.  Follow the wiring directions. If you don’t have one get one.  Also verify your firing order and rotation of distributor by bumping the starter with the cap off.  I once last days trying to start a Porsche 911 because a distributor diagram I found online had the direction of rotation backwards.

If all that fails I would pull the distributor and give it a good look inside. If the screw for the condenser is any longer than the thickness of the housing it will scramble the insides of the distributor.

[Mike Hughes]

Many years ago (1971) I bought a beautiful Austin Healey 3000 for $200 because the owner couldn't get to to run and his wife wanted it out of "her" garage.  We pushed it to the street and I went off with the title to DMV to get plates for it.  When my dad and I came back with the plates, a tow rope and my tool box we tried a few things to get it to run before towing it home.  First, we checked the electric fuel pump (working) and the float bowls (empty floats and fuel level correct).  Then we pulled the plugs to check the gap and for signs of fouling (new, correctly gapped plugs, smelling of gas).  Finally we pulled the cap to check it, the rotor and points (all new).  The points were gapped properly but the insulator washer was installed incorrectly over the the condenser wire end and point spring instead of underneath, grounding the points.  I put it where it belonged, started the Healey up and drove it away.

[troctime]

Hi

I’m having the same problem

Did you find a solution ?

After removing the cylinder head 5 month ago , we installed it back.
Motor refuse to start ?!
Fuel is arriving to the injection pump ( I tested it by removing the screw of the fuel filter ).
Spark are new and do fire.
Distributor is ok ( 123 Infinition ).

When I unscrew one injection line , fuel is coming out when I try starting but with very low pressure ?! and not much.

By leaving the engine 5 month do I have to do something special with the injection pump for restating ?

Thanks

Olivier

[youngtimersgarage]

It has been a nightmare. I finally gave up and dropped it off at a mechanic and he has done everything I have  I even resent my mechanical fuel injection pump back out to the company that rebuilt it. My mechanic found rusty fuel in the tank which I had reseal professionally so this may have been the root of my problem. He was swapping injectors 3 would work 3 would etc. So now im going to order a new tank and pray that the fuel injection pump was rebuilt properly.

[doitwright]

You mentioned that you replaced the injectors. Much has been discussed here that new injectors do not always work as they should. They should be tested for proper spray pattern. If you have your old ones they can often be cleaned. Kent Bergsma explains how to clean mechanical injectors on his YouTube video.

[ja17]

If you have fuel, spark (on time) and compression, it will run. Try a shot of starting fluid. If it tries to start, then the issue is fuel supply. Pull a plug wire, and install a spare spark plug on the loose plug wire end and hold the spark plug against engine ground and crank the engine. If you have spark then check to see if it is one time and also double check the spark plug firing order is correct and that #1 wire is in proper distributor location. Make sure your spark is happening on the compression stroke and not 180 degrees off time. Lastly check the compression to make sure the valves are closing and the cam timing is correct. You might have to install a fresh set of spark plugs often times they become fouled after all the failed attempts to start. For first start up I remove all spark plugs, slightly loosen each fitting at the injectors and then crank the engine until fuel emerges from each injector fitting. Tighten down each injector fitting as fuel emerges. When all six fuel lines are primed and tightened, I then install the spark plugs and start the engine.