Author Topic: What do you think of this pagoda ?  (Read 660 times)

jesuisrelou

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What do you think of this pagoda ?
« on: August 15, 2019, 23:09:05 »
Hello, i have just seen a 1966 230 sl that a friend is selling.
The car is only used during summer and very rarely.
It has covered only 5000 km in 20 years.

The body is in quite poor condition. I found rust under the carpet behind the passenger seat and in the trunk

I can't really see how bad it is on the other parts.

The engine is very very greasy, but it drives great.
The gear lever is "floating".

I'd like to save it if i can get a reasonable price for it by stripping it completely by myself before sending it to a body shop and after that do a mechanic overhaul, mostly by myself.

The issue is that i don't really know what to expect to pay for the bodywork, and i'd need to have a rough idea before pressing the trigger.

How bad do you consider this car is from what you can see?

Here are the pictures !



jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2019, 23:10:29 »
Details of the bodywork

jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2019, 23:11:47 »
Some more rust

jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2019, 23:13:25 »
Under the car

jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2019, 23:14:23 »
Engine bay and gear shifter

Pinder

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2019, 23:27:00 »
It looks good to me.  The floating gear stick is because of the plastic bushing for ball is disintegrated.  You can get those online. I got mine from Autohaus AZ. You can while you are at it replace other plastic bushings in the linkages. Makes the world of difference.

I dont think the body looks so bad but obviously its hard to tell with pics and not knowing what lies under the paint.  depending on what price you get it at it looks good.

1970 280 SL  currently in Red. original color is Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC.
2006 Cls 500 in Pewter colour (Daily driver)
1971 Buick riviera boattail in Black purchased from Norton MA. This is my practice car for paint etc.

teahead

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2019, 23:30:17 »
Doesn't really look that bad IMHO.

How far are you going to dismantle it?  Everything and they blast and/or dip it?

If she runs good, don't bother rebuilding the engine.  Just pull it and change all the seals/gaskets (front timing cover area, oil pan).

If you send it out and they fix all the rust and do the bodywork and paint, I'm thinking...$20k.  That's of course YOU doing all the re-assembly.

Of course, there's still ancillaries like interior, suspension, brakes, electrics, heater, and chrome to worry about.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

DaveB

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 01:08:48 »
I agree with those comments. The issues you've photographed seem common to many/most pagodas (even the delaminating windshield).

Inevitably there will be more rust. Although the underbody looks good you'd best check all the structural members (see photo below for what can happen - from thread https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24903.msg177987#msg177987).

Corrosion under the hood paint is less common and perhaps indicates poor preparation in the repainting.

You could give the engine a degreasing and (judicious) pressure clean to see where the oil's from, but I guess that is a post-purchase activity.

Personally I would not restore it at all. It looks great and apparently drives great. You would not be too worried about driving in the rain or parking at the supermarket, and you're not likely to lose money on it. If you want a really nice car, I think wait for a better 'survivor'

Minor issues - interior mirror, wing mirror, tail lights are all later replacements. And I don't know what those steel plates in the trunk floor are. maybe it previously had a towbar fitted.

DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

Garry

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 02:30:24 »
I am going to slightly disagree with others here in that i think you are going to find a lot of rust when you strip it and it will be like an iceberg, what you see is only the tip of the problem.


Having said that, if you can do a lot of the work yourself then there are very big savings to be had and it may be worth the effort to do if you dont want to spend a lot of dollars up front.


Garry
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 04:30:46 by Garry »
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Australia
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery
1964 VW Kombi Split Screen (Muffin Top) Single Cab Utyility Blue 334G lower, top 350H. Restored
2005 MB A200
2008 MB SLK 55 AMG
2016 VW T6 4x4 pop top Camper

johnk

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 04:21:24 »
I agree with Gary. The holes in the floor behind the rear seat let water into the rockel panel below. I would guess you will need to repair sections of the inner structure below the holes. The trunk looks like you will need to at least replace the left side of the floor pan. Good chance you will have some lesser problems on the right side once you remove the spare tire.

A few more areas - check behind the rear bumpers. This panel rusts from the inside when there is moisture leaking into the trunk. Also check your front floor boards. get a small screw driver and poke around the seams towards the front of the car.
John Krystowski
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Bonnyboy

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 04:25:33 »
If you can get back to the car, check the following areas -
up under the fenders above the front wheels - there is a lip/tray that tends to rust out - that is expensive to fix as it requires the fenders to be removed and replace inner fenders (sometimes you can tell from inside the engine bay but I hve seen guys build the area up with bondo and paint over so hard to tell.  Be careful if you put your fingers in there as you could get cut if there is rust through.

-  check the rear frame rails behind the rear wheels and under the boot
- check the area directly behind the rear wheels (need to remove wheels to see area)
- and I can't tell what you have but the areas under the rear parcel shelf are prone to rust
- and check for rust through under the floor mats next to the rocker area (from the inside) where the firewall meets the floor.   

Get pictures and come back to the forum.   

Hopefully this could all help you get a better deal.   Nice car

Me - I would just drive it as is for a while and go after one piece at a time.   I expect the bubbling on the bonnet is just moisture reacting with the aluminium and not rust.   More a prep issue as old body workers may not have known how to look after aluminum.

Ian
69 280SL
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC

Garry

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 04:29:16 »
Another area I would be checking is on the underside of the front cross member. I have struck rust there twice in my Pagodas.


Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Australia
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery
1964 VW Kombi Split Screen (Muffin Top) Single Cab Utyility Blue 334G lower, top 350H. Restored
2005 MB A200
2008 MB SLK 55 AMG
2016 VW T6 4x4 pop top Camper

pj

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 05:17:02 »
If it's running well enough to meet your level of comfort, I suggest you drive it first for a few years. Get that enjoyment now. You won't be younger when it's done being restored. And you will be much, much poorer :-)
--Peter
1965 230SL #09474 named Dagny
2018 B250 4matic named Rigel

Cees Klumper

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2019, 07:27:35 »
Vousetesrelou: does not look too bad. I agree with other posters, if you can get it at a good price, ie under €40-45,000, then drive it for a while and get to know it, shop around for the bodywork and paint, and learn about how to maintain and fix it yourself. That's how I have enjoyed mine while avoiding €25-50,000 in repairs done by others. Bon chance!
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic white

kampala

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2019, 10:39:19 »
Dear "reluctant"

I don't know if you have time (2 weeks) or are in a rush and need to take action quickly.  I live in Paris in the 7th and am not far from Saint Cloud. I would be happy to meet you to see the car.   I am not an expert, but do know these cars and know where to look.   

The big issue is that I leave Paris tomorrow for a few days to the UK and then again will be away for a week.  If you are still considering this car after 3-September, I will gladly take a look.  I know the car may not be in Saint Cloud, but if not too far away, no problem.

Also - there is a garage very close to Saint Cloud in Suresnes on Boulevard Henri Sellier, that seems to specialize in these older Mercedes.   They might be able to do an inspection (but it's August in France, so they might be closed).  HOWEVER, another member here really does not like this garage (owners have changed) and would not recommend having work done there.

Let me know here or by Personal Message if you would like me to take a look, I would be happy to help.   Unfortunately, I will not come in my Pagoda as they live in California while I live in Paris.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 10:54:23 by kampala »
Oz
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EeVeeWee

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2019, 12:35:36 »
It seems in nearly the same condition as my car was, when I started the restoration.
Here you can see what to expect:

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28229.0
Again something else.

stickandrudderman

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 12:41:37 »
I'd be happy to look at it for you.
It wouldn't be the first time somebody paid me to go to France and do a PPI....

jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2019, 14:24:35 »
WOW !
So many responses in such short notice.
What a reactive community, that's fantastic.
Thank you very much.

I'll try to answer everyone.

@Pinder :
Thank you for the diagnosis for the gear lever. I'll check the procedure and find the pieces and try to fix it to be able to take the car with me by the road if it's not too complicated.

@Teahead :
I'd like to sandblast it to stop the damages so i'll need to take everything apart.

@DaveB and pj:
I will proabably keep it as is for a year, to know the car better and see what needs to be adressed, and have the pleasure to have a Pagoda as a daily.
Thank you for spotting the incorrect parts.

@Garry an johnk : I undestand that it's really complicated to clearly know what big are the damages until you strip the car.
I have a few other pictures that i will submit.

@Bonnyboy : unfortunately I won't be able to see the car again before saying if take it or not, as i'm not the only one potential buyer around this car

@Cees Klumper : merci ;)

@kampala : I think i won't stay reluctant that long actually. Thank your for your very kind offer but unfortunately the car is 600 km away from Paris. The garage you mention was litteraly across the street from my house but they moved away a few years ago. Once i have it, we could arrange something to fix your pagoda craving when in Paris ;)

@ EeVeeWee : Very interesting thread and amazing work. Just added to the bookmarks.

@ stickandrudderman : Thank you for this offer, but unfortunately i don't have the timeframe to make a PPI



Pinder

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2019, 22:12:27 »
It would be difficult to drive it any good distance without fixing the gear stick issue. It can be done on site but is pretty fiddly. Unless the car is driven regularly I would recommend getting it towed home as you would want to check things like brakes etc. It all depends on your comfort level on how it is running right now.  Its amazing how you will find little things that make it not so safe to drive when you get to spend several days just snooping around it.   For example the exhaust rubber doughnuts holding the exhaust in place. If any snap on the way home you may end up dragging an exhaust pipe home. Old cars seem to spring leaks etc or rubbers parts failing once you start using them. This happens to both cars I have once I started using the gear stick. the same parts you will be replacing start crumbling and then eventually it was impossible to put in gear.
1970 280 SL  currently in Red. original color is Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC.
2006 Cls 500 in Pewter colour (Daily driver)
1971 Buick riviera boattail in Black purchased from Norton MA. This is my practice car for paint etc.

Benz Dr.

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2019, 22:43:01 »
I've bought running driving cars that I never should of taken apart. Most ended up being parts cars when I had a driveable car at one point. I'm not saying this would happen here but I've seen too many that did end up that way not to voice this warning.

This looks like a good candidate for a rolling restoration. Fix in the winter and drive in the summer.   
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2019, 03:24:14 »
Thanks to all of you.
I just bought the car.
The beginning of an adventure starts now.

DaveB

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2019, 03:38:58 »
 :D
DaveB
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Pinder

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2019, 04:35:56 »
Good choice. Enjoy the journey.
1970 280 SL  currently in Red. original color is Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC.
2006 Cls 500 in Pewter colour (Daily driver)
1971 Buick riviera boattail in Black purchased from Norton MA. This is my practice car for paint etc.

jesuisrelou

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2019, 22:47:46 »
Hello, a Quick update.

I just took delivery of the car.
Spoiler : i'm terribly happy!

The car successfully passed the contrôle technique - the french MOT - Yesterday.
After driving 100 km and quick fixing the shifter I decided i could take it by the road for 500 km.

And it went well, excepted that the car is squealing sooooooooooo much on every road déformation since this morning.
It's almost embarassing in town.

Any ideas of could be the culprit and if greasing it with white lithium could make this stop before replacing what has to be ?

teahead

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Re: What do you think of this pagoda ?
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2019, 23:04:08 »
squeeling how?

When braking?

When turning?

Constantly while driving?  Or also when stopped as well?

Could be just a power steering belt.  THere's this "belt ease" you can spray on that may help.  Otherwise, could be just loose and need to tighten it.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"