Author Topic: Another esoteric judging question.  (Read 2564 times)

Shvegel

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Another esoteric judging question.
« on: April 15, 2019, 10:19:45 »
Just curious if anyone knows if using a Sanden compressor or single pass AC condenser is a deduct in scoring at an MBCA event?  If the judging standard is as it left the factory isn't the AC in and of itself an add on and therefore a deduct?  I know it is a stretch but figured I would ask.  I started down the path of updating the AC and bought all the proper compressor etc and now am backtracking back to the original system.

Tomnistuff

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2019, 14:57:53 »
Is it even true that the factory installed AC, or were they all dealer installed?
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

ja17

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 15:06:34 »
I have judged many national and local MBCA concours. In a strict MB concours, I would suspect that only the dealer installed, factory approved AC units of the day would be acceptable without deduction, especially if the interior fan and condenser unit is not correct.  A few point deduction may not be worth the drawbacks of the early, more original units.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tomnistuff

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2019, 15:35:09 »
Thanks Joe. 
Shvegel, I don't mean to insult the MB engineers, after all we are 50 years farther down the road now, but as I used to say in the auto industry, "if I wanted something that didn't work, I could have got it much cheaper."  That's a bad joke, but at the same time, I don't think it is fair that Mercedes should be judged on aftermarket parts installed by dealers.  I would like to be a purist, but I won't be a masochist.  My home-designed AC system may not work because I haven't tried it yet, but I installed a Sanden compressor and a single pass condenser.
But who am I to judge anybody.  The previous car I restored was "pure", beautiful and except for the power train, a piece of junk.  It wasn't a Mercedes.
Tom Kizer.
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

Jonny B

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2019, 15:42:36 »
It would be a small deduct as Joe states, perhaps a ½ point. The dealer installed period correct A/C units would not be a deduct.

If you read the later brochures, near the end of production, they state that A/C was available from the factory. Don't really have a good way to substantiate beyond the brochure.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Shvegel

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 16:43:11 »
There was a part of me that wanted to do all original hoses and R12 refrigerant(I still have 30 pounds) but since the penalty is so small I won’t bother. For even a point I wouldn’t be a masochist.

MikeSimon

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2019, 00:02:09 »
In the 60s and 70s, A/C was very much market driven. One of the issues was, there was no A/C compressor manufacturer in Germany. None of the German car manufacturers offered A/C.
In markets where they had a demand, they left it to the dealers to install it.
Bear in mind that in Central Europe, to this day, few homes have air conditioning.
When Daimler started to use power steering, they looked to the US for a pump manufacturer and finally persuaded Vickers to supply a pump to them, although Vickers had made  the decision to pull out of the automotive market.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Shvegel

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 14:27:48 »
Mike,
That leads me to my favorite BMW story.  When BMW retired the E12 5 series in 1981 the US market begged the company to increase the capacity of the AC on the new E28 edition.  The German response was along the lines of, “Perfectly Adequate.”  The US representatives persuaded BMW to send 2 engineers to a meeting in Kansas City.  They were greeted by the US delegation and ushered to the parking lot where they were told the Meeting would take place in Texas in 2 days.  They were given a Black E12 with a black interior.  The air conditioner was fully functional but the windows were disabled.  They reached Oklahoma before they gave up.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 02:04:42 by Shvegel »

Mike Hughes

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 14:46:54 »
In the middle 1950's Sir William Lyons was present for the unveiling the new Jaguar MK8 saloon at the New York Auto Show.  After the festivities a businessman from upstate N.Y. approached Sir William and began to really give him a hard time about the ineffectual heater in his MK7 saloon and asked him if Jaguar had improved the heating system in the new model.  Sir William was said to have replied, "Your heater is perfectly adequate, sir, you just need to dress for the weather!"
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

ksalzer

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 21:06:35 »
Totally off topic, but I just noticed you, Tomnistuff, had one of the few 113's with a turquoise interior. That color MB tex is, as far as I know, unavailable, as is the leather. The one other turquoise interior I know of (leather), besides my own (MB tex), had hides custom dyed for his restoration, which was fairly costly. Out of curiosity, what did you do with the old seats and trim?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 21:11:59 by ksalzer »

Mike Hughes

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2019, 00:04:22 »
Sorry to continue with the off-topic topic, but Alex Djuric in N.C. also has a 250SL with turquois M-B Tex interior.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

ksalzer

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2019, 01:05:48 »
Alex’s turquoise interior is the one I was referring to where he had to get the hides dyed - it looks spectacular! (I think he may have changed from MB Tex to leather.) Don’t know of any others besides mine and his with that color interior...

Alex D

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 01:52:05 »
Hi, Alex did not have his MB Tex dyed, it is all original, and showing a little patina at this point is nice. I looked into re dying the orginal MB Tex but could not get a guarantee it would be an exact match, and can not take any chances of anybody screwing it up either by dying or removing/installing, if it gets screwed up some how I'm really up a river without a paddle. I did speak to one of the major leather suppliers about replacing it with leather, and was told it would need to be a custom leather dye and would have to buy 6 cars worth of leather hides as a minimum. 

The carpet on the other hand was replaced.  After searching the planet earth for 4 years trying to find turquoise carpet in German Square Weave and was unsuccessfully, finally discovered I had to take drastic measures.  Had to take a white German Square Weave and have it custom dyed by North Carolina State University department of Textile Science, and it was truly done with science and technology.  Another member of this group from Australia liked the carpet so much, he had the same thing done and is very happy with the results. 

The pic show the original faded carpet and the new dyed carpet. The new dyed carpet color was matched from a sample of unfaded carpet from under the parcel shelf. 
Alex D
1967 250 SL
Original 140K mi
181 Light Beige, with  112 Turquoise Interior

ksalzer

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2019, 00:27:36 »
Apologies for continuing this off-topic: Looks like I got my facts a little muddled regarding Alex's carpet and Tex... sorry for that. Nonetheless, the huge effort and results really are amazing.

Shvegel

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2019, 02:08:59 »
Sanden it is.  Now I am considering going with the 4 speed as opposed to my factory Automatic.

Tomnistuff

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Re: Another esoteric judging question.
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2019, 03:42:35 »
Ksalzer, my turquoise mbtex was stained, cracked and torn so I replaced it with Navy blue leather and scrapped the mbtex about twenty years ago.
Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)