Author Topic: Bosch playing unfair? (Read 20816 times)

Tyler S · « **on:** August 19, 2016, 00:40:59 »

Ruh Roh.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-18/bosch-role-in-vw-diesel-cheating-called-key-by-car-owner-lawyers

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2016, 03:00:44 »

So much for 'A few rogue (VW) employees'. In competition war, all seems fair.

wwheeler · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2016, 04:22:48 »

Having one of these cars, I have been following this closely. I have always pondered how did Bosch design the cheating software w/o being involved themselves? Sure they could have used to it for the early trials to get VW by. But they would have to know when it hit production. They are for sure involved.

BTW, the buyback program is now court approved. How they plan to fix the cars remains a mystery. I don't care as I am selling mine back.

Garry · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2016, 07:38:51 »

Wallace,

I am a bit intrigued that you have a VW and plan to take up the buy back without a fix.

Did you not like the car after you purchased it or is there just the financial benefit in having to now to go and buy another car?

I also own a VW and think they are great, there is no buyback here being offered nor suggested and the feeling is that if you do a fix the vehicle will be chocked back, a bit like the pollution gear that US markets forced onto the US Pagoda in the late ’60’s that Europe did not do.

wwheeler · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2016, 16:57:14 »

Hey Garry!

No, I actually love the car.....the way it is. My understanding is that VW would rather buy the cars back than to fix them. Why? Not sure but I am guessing warranty issues from the fix and they probably just want to put this behind them. That being said, I see three problems with the fix:
1) There is not an approved fix for my generation. That could mean that this could last for a few years with the outcome uncertain even then. Like VW, I would rather put this behind me and move on.
2) The fix will no doubt reduce acceleration and fuel mileage. No telling what it will do for reliability.
3) The dealers can barely repair "factory" installed components to my satisfaction. I cannot even imagine what will happen when they try to install retrofits to fix the problem.

I am getting a pretty decent amount for the TDI car and in fact a pretty good percentage for a new gas version. On the wild side and because I still love the turbo diesels, in two hours I am headed to test drive a BMW 328d x-drive wagon. The smart money move would be to buy a new sports wagon gas VW. The fun move would be to buy the BMW diesel wagon.

Since when do decisions about cars and spending money wisely ever go together?

Garry · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2016, 22:16:37 »

Can understand if they are giving you a heap more than its book value. Its a wonder they don’t offer a new VW for even more than those that are electing to take the money to go elsewhere.

Thanks for your thoughts, its not happening here in Oz.

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2016, 22:40:08 »

Quote from: Garry on August 20, 2016, 07:38:51

Wallace,

I am a bit intrigued that you have a VW and plan to take up the buy back without a fix.

Did you not like the car after you purchased it or is there just the financial benefit in having to now to go and buy another car?

I also own a VW and think they are great, there is no buyback here being offered nor suggested and the feeling is that if you do a fix the vehicle will be chocked back, a bit like the pollution gear that US markets forced onto the US Pagoda in the late ’60’s that Europe did not do.

The ignition retard system used on late USA 280SE/SL's didn't choke back performance but it did lead to a number of related problems when owners tried to disconnect it or '' modify '' the basic functions. It also lead to overheating at idle but that's a different problem. All in all, I prefer the basic 051 system even though the 062 was high tech for the time period.

wwheeler · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2016, 01:27:21 »

It is a heap more for sure than the book value. The book value in fact is dialed back to before the scandal broke. And then they offer "misery" money on top of that. As I said, they just want it to go away.

The interesting thing is the dealers. They are more aggravated than I am because of the lost business and all the extra effort they go through dealing with this. You must also bring your cars back to the dealers for the buyback. I am sure VW will compensate them somehow.

Garry, Is your VW the 2.0L TDI or the 3.0L? The 3L should have the AdBlue additive and should be fixable with only just a little pain. The 2L does not have the AdBlue system and will require that and other tweaks. A major retrofit.

BTW, I just now bought a 2016 BMW 328d diesel wagon that was a "loaner". Had 5000 miles on it and got a great deal. It is a barn burner!

66andBlue · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2016, 03:47:43 »

Quote from: wwheeler on August 20, 2016, 04:22:48

Having one of these cars, I have been following this closely. I have always pondered how did Bosch design the cheating software w/o being involved themselves? Sure they could have used to it for the early trials to get VW by. But they would have to know when it hit production. They are for sure involved.
BTW, the buyback program is now court approved. How they plan to fix the cars remains a mystery. I don't care as I am selling mine back.

That the lawyers are going after Bosch now doesn't surprise me at all, it is the usual hunt for "deep pockets", whether they are involved or not doesn't matter.

Personally I tend to blame the problems on VW and not Bosch because Bosch makes basic ECUs for several different car models of one company and probably the same ECU is also custom tailored for other manufacturers. That is the reason why in 2007 Bosch had sent a letter to Wolfsburg, in which they warned not to use their exhaust treatment technology in a way that would be against the law. Bosch had supplied software for testing purposes only, with the explicit caveat that using the software in series models is illegal.
Although it applies only to VW "AdBlue" Diesel cars here is a synopsis of how the cheating was done on these AdBlue cars:
https://blog.kaspersky.com/dieselgate-explained/10974/
And if you have the time and interest watch the full video of how these guys hacked the EPU:
https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scandal_dieselgate#video&t=5
{click on the graphic slide to start the video if it doesn't start immediately}

I got a kick out of Domke's explanation how the tachometer actually works. Who would have thought that the ECU reports a constant 780 RPM on the tacho when the engine’s idling, regardless of the actual engine speed?

Garry · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2016, 03:57:50 »

Wallace,

I have a 2 014VW Toureg 3l Tdi in the business and a 2016 2l Tdi Transporter Camper. When this all blew up, VW could not give away cars almost so late last year I went to the dealer and ordered a new van at 30% off retail and free inroad costs. Just delivered this month. Within 6 months of ordering it the prices firmed up when people here realised it did not apply here with what had gone on in USA and elsewhere. I got a bargain.

wwheeler · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2016, 04:48:31 »

Good for you. They are great cars. I just wonder how many used US models are headed your way. I am not sure if they made the deal that they would all be crushed or if they could sell them to countries where they are within the emissions specs. Crushing them seems like such an absolute waste. Ok the emissions output is higher on the engines but, what about the energy and resources that go into making all the other parts of the car. And that is all crushed.

Garry · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2016, 06:16:01 »

They should not be coming to Australia as we have restrictions on the import of used cars. Basically you can only import cars older than 25 years or more modern ones as a personal import, that is you have to buy it and then apply for approval to import it so no vehicles can be brought in in bulk. That may be one saving grace.

neelyrc · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2016, 17:19:47 »

Quote from: wwheeler on August 21, 2016, 01:27:21

BTW, I just now bought a 2016 BMW 328d diesel wagon that was a "loaner". Had 5000 miles on it and got a great deal. It is a barn burner!

Wallace, straying one step further off topic, is the BMW model branded 328d in U.S.A. a three liter turbo deisel? I have a BMW 330xd Coupe here in Italy and I can vouch for the fact that the BMW 3 liter diesel is a real barn burner!

wwheeler · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2016, 18:35:00 »

No unfortunately, it is the 2.0L. It is an X drive meaning AWD. That is a good thing the because the old VW diesel would spin its front tires pretty easily with the high torque.

So it is a barn burner when compared to what people imagine a four cylinder diesel would do. Still it is 0-60 in 7.2 seconds but will get 43 MPG on the highway. A little bit of everything and not bad for a wagon. The attached isn't mine but about what it will look like. I can only imagine what a 3.0L would be like. Wow! They have come along way from the old MB 180d with 40 some odd HP.

The old VW was 0-60 in 8 seconds BTW.

neelyrc · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2016, 19:42:40 »

Very nice! The wagons are very popular here in Europe in all makes. Most all are diesel as diesel fuel is cheaper (about 10% in Italy). Still a luxury at Euro 1.30 a liter!
Ralph

wwheeler · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2016, 22:33:51 »

That is the crazy thing here in the US. Just the opposite. Wagons are scarce and even more scarce are the diesel wagons. The wagons are super great handling cars and are tuned that way on purpose as with both the BMW and the VW. Better handling than the standard sedan I believe.

And the diesels are marketed as a premium option and are usually loaded with features. Make you wonder what happened to the bare bones "taxi cab" diesel idea. I was going to get heated front seats as the only option (have to order) but found the loaner and yes, it loaded. I really didn't need that, but oh well got a good deal. Will take me weeks to figure out all of the techy features.

JonathanB · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2016, 07:49:30 »

Quote from: Garry on August 21, 2016, 06:16:01

They should not be coming to Australia as we have restrictions on the import of used cars. Basically you can only import cars older than 25 years or more modern ones as a personal import, that is you have to buy it and then apply for approval to import it so no vehicles can be brought in in bulk. That may be one saving grace.

. . . and they drive on the wrong side of the road down there, don't they?

Garry · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2016, 12:23:33 »

I guess the risk for us would be from UK, Japan, South Africa and Malaysia as the main RH driving areas.

We get a few LH vehicles but not many.

georgem · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2016, 21:32:29 »

Gary
We have a 2.0litre tdi passat - probably the nicest car we have ever owned - love it BUT I am somewhat confused, even after receiving emails etc from VW Australia telling us how a fix was on its way so sit tight and relax , yet in other parts of the world, the same car is being bought back and perhaps ultimately crushed. Are our emission laws at a lower standard than elsewhere? Or is dass auto playing us for mugs?

Garry · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2016, 22:57:39 »

George,

I believe our standards were lower but the Diesel used here also has a lower sulphur content so slightly different than US. so the fuel module settings were different. I understand from my VW dealer that they were just planning a twitch to the module during a routine service once they have the go ahead and software from VW Germany.

Car Dealers, I wouldn’t trust/believe them on any thing.

Garry

mdsalemi · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2016, 13:38:01 »

Australia's ULSD is 10ppm. USA is 15ppm.

Diesel pundits (drivers, not engineers) don't seem to realize that out of a barrel of crude oil, there is a controlled refining process. We cannot run the world on diesel since that would leave an awful lot of gasoline unused. We can't run the world on gasoline since that leaves a lot of diesel available. You can look up easily the products that come out of a barrel of crude, and if anyone thinks we can (in the USA) move to say 50% diesel economy they would be grossly mistaken. For sure there is some balancing that can be done, but it isn't much...that's why the stuff has to be refined in the first place. Diesel for passenger cars in the USA is a very small fraction of overall fuel sourcing and will remain that way, partially for this reason.

georgem · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2016, 20:44:20 »

Michael,

Maybe we (I) need a lesson in the refining process - my simplistic understanding of the process was a linear approach - start the process and take it to a certain point and it produces lubricating oil, then diesel, continue to petrol etc. From what you say this is wrong - things happen concurrently, so if you want petrol, you will end up with diesel and vice versa. What sort of ration per barrel.

George

wwheeler · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2016, 02:31:21 »

From what I have heard, diesel and home heating oil compete for their percentage from a barrel in the US. I do know that in a normal oil production and pricing scenario (we are not in one now BTW), the price of diesel at the pump goes up right about now because they are building home heating oil stocks for the winter. If it is a warm winter, the price at the pump drops in late winter. If it is a cold winter, price stays up for awhile. I have seen that for four years in a row. Spring is usually the cheapest and no coincidence, VW USED TO promote the diesels heavily in the spring when gasoline and diesel had the narrowest difference in price.

This year with the unbelievably low prices at the pump, may be different.

Tyler S · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2016, 16:43:16 »

One of the problems (at least here in California) is if you don't perform a mandatory recall on an emissions related item, The DMV will not let you register your car. Here in Cali they will have to be repaired or bought back. There is no third choice.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #24 on:** September 01, 2016, 14:12:01 »

Quote from: georgem on August 24, 2016, 20:44:20

Maybe we (I) need a lesson in the refining process

There is plenty written on the topic in many locations, from many sources on the internet to complex engineering treatises at your local library. From what has been told to me by those in the business, there is a little swing in what you can do with the process, but it you look at a typical "barrel" of crude oil, in the USA in 2015, the 42-gallon barrel of crude yielded approximately 19 gallons of gasoline, 12 gallons of ULSD (which can be heating oil or diesel, they are essentially the same product), 4 gallons of kerosene (Jet-A; jet fuel). That leaves 7 other gallons, which is refined into a variety of products such as residual oil (bunker fuel); gases such as propane/LPG/propylene. Of course, there are other products such as butane, and solvents such as benzene; petroleum coke (pet coke); asphalt, tar, paraffin, naphtha, and related.

From what I've been told, the yield can vary from plant to plant, with low losses and high yield from efficient refineries. Also, they can swing the mix a bit, but you cannot, for example, forgo those 19 gallons of gasoline and suddenly have your refinery yield 31 gallons of ULSD out of that barrel; it isn't possible. That's my point--we cannot in the USA suddenly behave like Europe where 50% of the cars are running diesel. If something like that were to happen, what you'd see is that old economic principle come into play--supply and demand. The demand for ULSD would skyrocket, the supplies would be limited, and gasoline would be sinking to low price levels. The northeast USA, which heats with fuel oil more so than other parts of the USA, would scream, and the government would get involved...another mess. BTW, in 2015, over 140 billion gallons of gasoline were consumed in the United States. Make no mistake--we can't switch all that or even a large proportion of that to diesel.

My own opinion is that diesel in the USA will remain as it is; essential for industrial engines and equipment; essential for the trucking industry, and a small niche player in passenger cars. We couldn't find enough diesel or refine enough for any other scenario, neglecting other factors such as the increased cost of diesel engines, time for payback and more.

The VW scandal only subtracts from the remote probability of diesel gaining any kind of foothold in the USA.

georgem · « **Reply #25 on:** September 01, 2016, 21:08:54 »

Thanks Michael,

Thanks for the info - which goes a little way in my understanding in why diesel prices are always higher than petrol -over here at least.

cheers

wwheeler · « **Reply #26 on:** September 02, 2016, 14:56:56 »

It didn't used to be higher and was lower before ULSD here in the US. That process to remove more sulphur apparently is expensive. I am sure other countries have different formulations and taxes that change the price structure and may not be comparable.

66andBlue · « **Reply #27 on:** September 06, 2016, 16:46:49 »

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-renault-diesel-exclusive-idUSKCN11C1MF
VW now wonders "whether it still makes sense to invest a lot of money in further developing diesel", Chief Executive Matthias Mueller said in June.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #28 on:** September 06, 2016, 20:35:45 »

Quote from: wwheeler on September 02, 2016, 14:56:56

It didn't use to be higher...

That depends on geography here in the USA, I think. Diesel has always been more costly than gasoline (87 octane) as far back as I can remember in Michigan, with only a few times when they were comparable. In addition, there have been some really wild swings in diesel cost up and gasoline stable which would scare the heck out of anyone here investing in a diesel car. During the winters of 2013/14 and 2014/15, which were quite cold here and in the northeast, the "polar vortex" kept those diesel prices really high. I think it's a gamble only a few are willing to take--those that have other things on their mind besides just the cost of the fuel.

Garry · « **Reply #29 on:** September 06, 2016, 22:09:13 »

Michael,

Your comments on the fluctuation in Diesel is interesting as in Australia it has been just the reverse. Diesel has always been a fairly stable price, running around $1.15 - $1.25 a litre for some years and petrol has fluctuated from $1.00 - $1.60 and the variation can be up to $0.20 change in a single day. They are always publishing the buy/dont buy petrol prices.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #30 on:** September 07, 2016, 14:36:48 »

Garry,

There's a seasonality to it, too. Some years ago #2 fuel oil (which is heating oil, essentially diesel w/o the additives) regularly was cheaper in the summer and more costly in the winter. I had a business in Vermont, USA that used a LOT of heating oil; it was a large building. We pre-bought the fuel in July from the local dealer at the summer prices (usually 2,000 gallons or more) and then used it all year until the next summer. We locked in our price, and he either locked in his price or actually bought the fuel and stored it for us.

Today the fluctuations in pricing are somewhat random. You see what I call excuses for price increases: insurgency in Nigeria, prices up. OPEC meeting, prices up. "Changeover" to summer blend + the inevitable midwest refinery fire or pipeline burst, prices up. Shortage of additives, prices up. My neighbors own an oil distribution business, supplying gas stations and marinas and industrial facilities with gasoline and diesel. They used to store hundreds of thousands of gallons of both in their tanks--a week or more--but the fluctuations have turned the business into a casino operation, so no more than a couple of days supply is stored now. Even with this, they often get caught with gasoline that is retailing for less than they paid wholesale for, because of price fluctuations.

Michigan is also a bit different I think, with the disparity between diesel and gasoline. In many other states it isn't as drastic.

66andBlue · « **Reply #31 on:** September 09, 2016, 20:09:13 »

After the detour on Diesel refinement procedures and yields it is time to go back to the original topic and Tyler's question asking whether Bosch is playing unfair.
Could Bosch be "Company A" ??
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN11F234

mdsalemi · « **Reply #32 on:** September 09, 2016, 21:10:34 »

There was this article too, Alfred...more to the point:

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/meeting-ties-bosch-ceo-to-vw-chief--wsj-20160909-00055

66andBlue · « **Reply #33 on:** September 10, 2016, 03:54:39 »

Hi Michael,
I had seen the WSJ article (and others) before and indeed it is more to the point. However, the points listed were those expressed by the tort lawyers and I am always a bit hesitant accepting those as the whole truth and nothing but ...
Now we have a defendant who pleated guilty. Plus he "and others, including employees of an entity referred to as "Company A," designed software that would activate the emission controls of an engine undergoing a government test and deactivate them afterward, according to the indictment."
That makes it a lot more likely.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #34 on:** September 10, 2016, 15:01:47 »

I agree with you Alfred. Just keep in mind that it isn't the "tort lawyers" per se that come to these conclusions, it is the tort lawyers AFTER they have hired sophisticated investigators the likes that prosecutors cannot afford and do not have, and investigators that would make the CIA, MI6 and the Mossad quite proud. These investigators dig deep.

Lawyers rarely, if ever, ask a question that they don't already know the answer to. I suggest that there's far more than a "grain of truth" to the results of the investigation of some kind of collaboration or prior knowledge of the CEOs of VW and, er, "Company A". We just haven't been presented with the entire story yet. Maybe we never will.

As to the guilty plea of this James Liang, now the floodgates are open!

wwheeler · « **Reply #35 on:** September 10, 2016, 17:29:46 »

I'm just glad I am selling my car back and I am done with this fiasco and can move on. That VW diesel sports wagon was a great car however. Hopefully the BMW 2.0 L diesel engine won't have these issues. It does have the AD-Blue system BTW.

wwheeler · « **Reply #36 on:** March 15, 2017, 02:53:35 »

And probably the last post for this thread. Bosch now has its own settlement and its own website. https://www.boschvwsettlement.com/en

I guess they got busted as well. Since I have sold my VW, I am automatically going to receive an additional $350.00 from Bosch.

The End.

66andBlue · « **Reply #37 on:** March 15, 2017, 03:06:18 »

The End?

The $350 will go right into your current project and spawn more joy!

wwheeler · « **Reply #38 on:** March 15, 2017, 03:10:10 »

That's beautiful.

Tyler S · « **Reply #39 on:** March 15, 2017, 03:35:44 »

$350 will buy you half of a nice Bosch headlight door or 3 injectors

wwheeler · « **Reply #40 on:** June 21, 2017, 19:42:43 »

Check arrived today from Bosch! Time to go shopping!

UJJ · « **Reply #41 on:** June 22, 2017, 11:25:43 »

Check $350.00 arrived yesterday, however, since it was my wives car I probably see none of it.
Urban

wwheeler · « **Reply #42 on:** June 22, 2017, 14:24:14 »

What kind of VW did you have? Mine was a 2012 Sports wagon TDI. Nice car but my 2016 BMW 328 D Sport wagon is a whole lot more fun. More expensive too.

UJJ · « **Reply #43 on:** June 26, 2017, 11:57:56 »

2012 Jetta TDI

mdsalemi · « **Reply #44 on:** June 26, 2017, 18:29:33 »

Meanwhile, back at the Takata Ranch, I see they've chosen bankruptcy for their misguided deeds. Don't think there will be much money for those maligned there.

wwheeler · « **Reply #45 on:** June 27, 2017, 15:02:38 »

Interesting. Our company buys a rubber coated fabric (not related to the air bags) from them. I wonder if that will affect our supply of that material?

Urban, same car as mine. It would appear that producing a diesel in the tight US emissions envelope just isn't a sure thing. Even light truck diesels are having issues.

Tyler S · « **Reply #46 on:** June 28, 2017, 00:08:53 »

I think part of what is so screwed up about the whole thing is CARB and The EPA were relying on manufacturers data and testing as well. Setting the emissions standards partly on what info was given to them. "Yes we can meet those emissions goals". Those goals were obtained by cheating so therefore the entire standard is flawed. As well as future emissions goals. The EPA and CARB are going to have to come up with some realistic numbers if Diesels are to progress in the States.

News:

Author Topic: Bosch playing unfair? (Read 20816 times)

JonathanB