Author Topic: VW Diesel Deception  (Read 35284 times)

mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2015, 16:00:00 »
Michael, isn`t this cheating? - or are there degrees of cheating?

Well, George, yes--there are different degrees of cheating, of course!  If you get $1.00 extra in change at a restaurant and don't report it, you've cheated the restaurant. If your broker is engaged in an elaborate fraud in which he takes a $1,000,000 from you or any number of people, that's more substantial so of course there are degrees...

But you are talking about Ford, and I surely don't think there was any intent to defraud the EPA (it was their mandated testing) or customers. Here's the story on that. The window sticker, or "Monroney" as it is called, must contain the EPA mileage ratings, and the usual source of these ratings is the EPA mileage test that is done under very standardized conditions, in a laboratory/dynamometer, and off the streets. On PEVs, this mileage rating can be vastly different, and with two cars, and a full year of experience with both, I can tell you that the mileage is wildly different depending on temperature, and the driver's use of climate control. Batteries must be heated in the cold weather; the use of A/C in the summer and heat in the winter affects the mileage in a measure not seen in traditional fuel vehicles. At a full charge, and 68 degrees ambient temperature, with no climate control in use, my range on the Ford Fusion Energy PEV is 18-22 miles. That will drop to as low as 10 by use of climate control, or if the temperature goes up or down. The car does not like it cold, nor hot. That's the reality of a battery--and I don't think this is peculiar to Ford. Heating and cooling take a lot of energy, and that comes from the same source as the motive power.

Now--onto the sticker. Ford's Monroney for the Fusion Energi (that's the two cars I have, others are included) reflected the EPA testing procedure. However for the reasons noted in the paragraph above, real world conditions were somewhat less. This generated complaints, which had Ford re-visiting the test procedure and process. Ford revised the sticker, and it wasn't by a whole lot: in my case, the sticker on one car went from 43mpg/100MPGe/21 mile range down to 38/88/19. Lease customers received a $525 payment; those who bought the cars received an $850 payment. Details were covered on the press release; pay particular attention to the engineering detail about TRLHP and the wind tunnel. Note also that they didn't revise conventional fueled vehicle ratings as these were unaffected by the engineering models. The PEVs and EVs require different standards to come close to reality.

https://social.ford.com/wp-content/docs/fe_press_release.pdf

Note that by the time we got our second car, the Monroney had been regenerated with the latter set of numbers--and thus no goodwill payment. We didn't complain, nor did we sign any paperwork, or fill out any forms. They sent a check to the dealer who turned around and sent the money to us. That simple. We were not complaining since there was a spectacular lease deal in the first place--about half the cost of a gas power model--and all this stuff about mileage ratings wasn't going to affect our lease. It was just too good to pass up.

By the way, for what its worth, our combined mileage ratings on these cars according to the built in computer is in the 83-85 range. When on electricity alone, it is 100MPGe+; when on gas alone as on a long trip, about 38mpg...but the boot has barely enough room for groceries let alone something as simple as a bag of golf clubs. It's all batteries!

Another interesting article: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150927/ANE/150929837/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 16:16:10 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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georgem

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #76 on: September 29, 2015, 21:03:32 »
Thanks Michael - your points are well made.

Perhaps I should have added that I am a VW fan - we own a 2010 VW Passat with the in question 2.0l Diesel  engine, a classic `73 VW Kombi ute and I have owned a couple of beetles over the years. My wife mainly drives our Passat and she reckons its a fantastic car - so do I for that matter - extremely well put together and that engine really sings (sadly with bad breath) We are unsure whether the computer programming is the same as the US car - although I assume it is, and I am not aware of the Australian emission standard - it may be more tolerant than in the US so it could meet it - the "faking it" issue doesn`t change though. 

Like the rest of the world, we are waiting with baited breath until next week which appears to be the deadline given to VW (not sure by whom) to tell us their remedy. One thing I am confident of though - in 2 years from now, VW will still exist - too many Governments esp the Germans have an interest to let it fail and life will go on. As someone said earlier in a post -its not as if VWs action is actually killing people - wasn`t there a car - Pinto - I think where it had a badly designed fuel tank which exploded during rear impact crashes - the manufacturer knew of this but calculated the  cost of redesign against the likely cost of litigation and figured lawyers were cheaper. Quite a few people died. Ford is still around.

cheers

George McDonald
Brisbane
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Benz Dr.

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #77 on: September 29, 2015, 21:41:59 »
Well I am not about to agree with everyone driving large SUV's and pickups as daily transportation but even with the increased fuel consumption compared to a diesel VW, these large vehicles are not emitting pollutants equal to the possibly 40 times over the allowable limits that VW may be spewing. Since one large vehicle uses 4 times the fuel and one VW emits 40 times the emissions, one VW equals 10 large SUV/Truck.     

Yes, but is that all cars, some of them, or one in a thousand? Somehow, comparing one small car's output ( at 2 liter and probably no visible smoke ) ) to several large trucks seems to be a bit over reaching. 
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #78 on: September 29, 2015, 21:43:53 »
For the last four days I am zipping around southern Germany
in an Audi A3 with this engine and can really appreciate why Wallace would not want to let it go. It is a fun car to drive !
The shock here in Germany is still palpable but now the suspicions are surfacing. Is it all a revenge?  Or perhAps a ploy to screw small investors and customers even more:
:http://www.marketwatch.com/story/porsche-has-lost-over-10-billion-on-volkswagens-stock-but-still-wants-more-2015-09-28
a sinister way to increase your share percentage?
Interesting times ...
Alfred
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mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #79 on: September 29, 2015, 22:21:56 »
...and the bottom line can be found in that article link about Bosch in my previous post. Most engineers in most auto companies, who know a whit about diesel, and the emissions know this.

The VW engine that is at the crux of this matter needed the DEF/Urea injection like almost all other diesel engines, including those in all the big trucks use. THAT'S how it's done.
The cost was a mere 300 euro per car. They said no. Too costly.  Really? Fast forward to today, and I guess it's going to cost them a whole lot more to solve this problem than 300 euro per car.

Then there's the criminal issue, conspiracy and all that..

Today's update: VW is thinking it can be done with software only in most cases, and with a changed fuel injection pump in others. If that's the case, why was the original engineering thought that the engine needed a DEF injection system?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 12:04:28 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2015, 17:20:00 »
So has VW said that the cars won't run well if the software is set to always be in clean mode?
Scott Allen
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mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2015, 18:51:38 »
So has VW said that the cars won't run well if the software is set to always be in clean mode?


That's a logical assumption, but since recall parameters have not yet been set [for the USA] we don't know this to be true. Just keep your ears to the ground, when any announcements are made they'll be big ones.
Michael Salemi
Canadian Lakes, Michigan USA
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mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2015, 15:58:44 »
Here we are a week or so later, and this is so "yesterday" in terms of news. You have to seek it out.
Today's story is that the AdBlue urea injection, rejected in 2007 as "too costly" will now be implemented at some time "moving forward", but not indicated as the solution to what's already out there...
Michael Salemi
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66andBlue

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.. and now the V6 diesel cars!
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2015, 17:41:06 »
No wonder that VW dealers have started to offer $15K rebates for 2015 V6 Touaregs, they knew what was coming!
"However, the software employs a "timer" that coincides with the low NOx temperature conditioning mode. At exactly one second after the completion of the initial phases of the FTP 75 Federal emissions  test procedure (1,370 seconds, which is when the vehicle would normally be tumed off), this software directs the vehicle to cease low NOx temperature conditioning mode. The "temperature conditioning" status bit switches to zero, and a second status bit indicates the activation of"transition to normal mode." In this "normal mode," the emission control system is immediately less effective. Compared to the low NOx temperature conditioning mode, the vehicle employs a different injection timing, exhaust gas recirculation  rate, and common rail fuel pressure. This yields higher levels ofNOx from the engine and reduced exhaust temperatures."

1 second delay .. that's what I call German precision!   ::)

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf
Alfred
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jameshoward

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2015, 18:55:42 »
That's a logical assumption, but since recall parameters have not yet been set [for the USA] we don't know this to be true. Just keep your ears to the ground, when any announcements are made they'll be big ones.

The Land Rover Discovery and full fat Range Rovers have been fitted with adblue for the past year now. I assume they do so in the US also?
James Howard
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2015, 18:17:47 »
I'm not selling mine until the government prys it out my hands or as Scoot says, not worth fixing *. I like it too much. ....
Wallace,
wait until your daily driver asks you "will you still like me when I  look like that?"   :o  ;D
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/epa-expands-on-road-emissions-testing-to-all-diesel-models.html
Alfred
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Rolf-Dieter

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2015, 19:20:05 »
LOL .... Alfred that takes the cake ~grin~ wherever did you find that (in the new testing directive from VW top management?)
Dieter

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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2015, 23:03:41 »
Dieter,
just click on the link to the NY times article, it should show up there.
The interesting aspect here is, of course, how will the other manufacturers of diesel cars fare in actual EPA driving tests.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2015, 03:42:41 »
Cool! Where can I get one?

That is a device only a mother could love.
Wallace Wheeler
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2015, 16:48:58 »
If you ask perhaps VW might include it in their so called "Goodwill Package" that they offer now to owners.  ;)

Although the company claims that you do not have to sign a release form to receive the package I would like to read the fine print:
To be eligible, consumers must be the registered owner or lessee of a Volkswagen diesel with the 2-liter TDI engine as of Nov. 8. Customers won’t be required to sign a release of claims in order to receive the package, said VW spokesman Darryll Harrison Jr. There are hundreds of consumer lawsuits seeking class-action status against the company.
Alfred
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2015, 04:56:46 »
Hey! Thanks for the info. That is timely because I need to take the ol' polluter in for an oil change. Plus I just bought some parts from the Classic Center and that will help pay for that. Here is the link:

 www.vwdieselinfo.com

Wallace Wheeler
Texas
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mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2015, 13:21:51 »
www.vwdieselinfo.com

Wow, what a lot of corporate double-speak and nonsense there. If they don't get every last one of these cars fixed or off the road, and a cadre of VW officials in jail along with a lot of fines, this is announcing to the automotive world that the rule of law is irrelevant and auto companies can darn well do what they want. This is so disturbing on so many levels. The only good news is that in the USA the number of diesels is very small.
Michael Salemi
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waltklatt

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2015, 20:24:31 »
Such a shame too.
Our family and my wife's family have the TDI diesels.
Today my parents are taking their 2015 Jetta TDI back to the dealer for a gas Jetta car swap.
I told them, if I were in their shoes, return the faulty TDI and get a gas one for now.
Till the TDI's become legal again.
Told them if they need the car inspected, it would fail promptly.
Also the car was just bought 3 months ago and the battery died all of a sudden (not one amp or hiccup on the voltmeter).
And that the oil was mysteriously disappearing.
Walter

wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2015, 00:56:27 »
It is only the 2009 and on TDI diesels that are affected.

I shared the VW promotion with a neighbor with a similar car. She is outraged with VW because she bought the car primarily for environmental reasons and she was unlawfully deceived. I think she was going to buy a Prius but chose the VW instead. My top three reasons for buying the TDI was great fuel mileage, I love diesels and it is a fun car to drive. The fact it has great gas mileage also was an environmental plus and still is to some degree. The environmental selling point was not a major factor for me. 

Think about this. How did the PR department somehow convince people that a diesel powered car is on the same plane as a Prius from an environmental view point? After a 100 or so years, diesels are still noisy, have vibration, have smelly fuel that does not evaporate quickly and has horribly black oil that will stain your hands easily. They do and always have had great fuel mileage. So how did they get the "clean diesel" campaign to stick? A hybrid or electric car will probably always have better emissions.
Wallace Wheeler
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mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2015, 16:20:36 »
How did PR do the convincing? Simple, they are good at their jobs!
There is such a thing as a clean diesel, relatively speaking, and that's the DEF injection. VW didn't want to, couldn't or insert excuse here, adapt this proven technology. So they faked it.
I think Mercedes-Benz would submit any of their diesels certified for the USA to anyone for testing and pass.
I'm not a fan of diesel here, mostly because there are WILD swings in diesel fuel prices; last winter locally the fuel was often $1.15 MORE than regular at any given time. While we are used to fuel price swings (when prices are steady here in the midwest, you can be sure a refinery fire, pipeline burst, or additive shortage is around the corner which will cause prices to rise) the differential just makes it hard to justify a diesel, considering the usual premium on the car itself.

PS Wallace, if you find the VW diesel fun to drive--my guess is the petrol version is every bit as much fun to drive.  ;)

I rented a Peugeot in Germany in 2011 and didn't have a clue it was diesel until I went to fill it up prior to return! They have made long strides in every way.
Michael Salemi
Canadian Lakes, Michigan USA
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2015, 23:37:59 »
I suppose I shouldn't, but I find this whole thing kind of funny. I would buy a diesel, and I have driven 300SD's before, but it would never be because I wanted a  '' clean '' running engine - it would be for the mileage. If you're that green, you should be riding a mountain bike.  ::)
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2015, 19:30:58 »
I got the feel good package from VW just in time for Christmas: $500 debit card and $500 dealer credit. Lots of letters from hungry lawyers also.

So far no word on what is going to happen to the ill fated TDI. Europe has a solution I believe, but not the US. We shall see.....
Wallace Wheeler
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Benz Dr.

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2015, 22:40:14 »
Wow, what a lot of corporate double-speak and nonsense there. If they don't get every last one of these cars fixed or off the road, and a cadre of VW officials in jail along with a lot of fines, this is announcing to the automotive world that the rule of law is irrelevant and auto companies can darn well do what they want. This is so disturbing on so many levels. The only good news is that in the USA the number of diesels is very small.

Mike:

The rule of law is irrelevant. Look around you, it's happening everywhere. Force is what makes laws work and when you can't use force to promote compliance, rule of law is just a nice idea. We have rule of law ( to one degree or another ) in the western world but as for the others......... well.........
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Alfred
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2017, 04:21:53 »
Thanks for the link Alfred. Good article. Still would like to know Bosch's role in all of this. Im sure that will come out at some point.
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