Author Topic: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe or Members manifestos.  (Read 42314 times)

stickandrudderman

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 05:09:28 by Garry »

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2014, 21:55:39 »

Great video, but there is one mistake I spotted: Poland is not part of the Eurozone.... ::)
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2014, 22:51:41 »
Like I said, "almost"! ;D

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 00:56:31 »
Yes, it's a great video. the European Union may seem complicated, cumbersome and frustrating, but we'd better make it work. Its most important achievement is 70 years of uninterrupted peace among its members (if we take the Marshall Plan as its starting point) which is unprecedented. Over the long History (Histoire longue) peace in Europe is the exception, not the norm. Problem is that 70 years is more than common memory so people take it for granted. Some people say that war is not possible anymore in Europe and that the European Union has nothing to do with it. I don't agree with them. The founding principle of the Union is to put our resources in common and manage them together. The current rise of nationalism everywhere in Europe is very worrying because it goes against this founding principle. And when we don't work together we fight each-other. Just read an History book if you're not convinced. After WWI everybody was already saying that another war in Europe was impossible. How wrong.

Ulf

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2014, 12:05:37 »
I agree with GGR - the EU is a complex, bureaucratic structure that seems horrendously bizarre, but it has kept peace and prosperity in Europe for longer than ever...
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2014, 14:07:38 »
There's another error (at least one I noticed); they don't mention Collectivité territoriale de Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, French islands off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada. How do they fit in this complexity?

And Ulf, GGR and others--a good deal of the peace over the past 70 years has to do first with the collective "enemy" of the cold-war, the Russian-Bloc nations behind the once "Iron-Curtain" which of course engendered United States military troop commands numbering in the hundreds of thousands, not to mention the armament, air forces and related. Kind of hard to start a war when this kind of enforcement is around!

But, all of Europe has not seen 70 years of peace. Don't forget the war in Kosovo; "armed insurgency" in Macedonia; the Russion invasion of Hungary in 1956; of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Bosnian war, Croatian War of Independence, Romanian revolution…while not world wars, or even wars engaging all of Europe, they did make travel dangerous in certain areas, and resulted in loss of life. We here in the USA don't always get all the stories, but one we will certainly hear and see again is the remnants of the destruction of Sarajevo--which hosted the 1984 Winter Olympics (that's why we'll hear about it) but was torn apart with the breakup of Yugoslavia…not precisely 70 years of peace.

The complexity of the EU is almost matched by two things: first, the United States Forces in Europe. Look THAT up and you'll find a variety of interesting acronyms such as USAREUR, AFCENT, USEUCOM, SHAPE, AFNORTH, AFSOUTH, and more--an ever-changing alphabet soup typical of a changing military command structure starting with the end of WWII, incorporating NATO and the UN, too.

Second is our own United States; the EU has a small number of countries, we have 50 states plus the District of Columbia, some overseas territories (such as Puerto Rico, Samoa, Guam, Virgin Islands, etc.) and the same kind of humorous complexity offered by the EU video could be made about our own USA!  Maybe it has and we just have not found it yet.  :D
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 14:42:50 by mdsalemi »
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2014, 15:18:02 »
And Ulf, GGR and others--a good deal of the peace over the past 70 years has to do first with the collective "enemy" of the cold-war, the Russian-Bloc nations behind the once "Iron-Curtain" which of course engendered United States military troop commands numbering in the hundreds of thousands, not to mention the armament, air forces and related. Kind of hard to start a war when this kind of enforcement is around!

This is true. I consider the USA to be one of the founding fathers of nowadays European Union with the Marshall Plan, which guiding principle was to put yesterday's enemies around the table and manage the Plan together to meet their common interests. On an institutional point of view the Marshall Plan transformed into the OECD. But its spirit went on living through the EU. The 1957 Treaty of Rome may be EUs founding treaty, but it is the result of a process which started with the Marshall Plan. The cold war indeed helped keeping Western Europe together under American overall military protection.

The fall of the Iron Curtain offered opportunities but also brought some challenges. EU enlarged to former Eastern Block European countries, which I guess is a good thing, certainly for the ones who see Europe only as an economic cooperation zone. But for the proponents of a political Europe, that enlargement happened too fast, before the Union could be consolidated politically. I guess geopolitics played a role, as this enlargement had to be done before Russia was able to reinstate its influence over these countries (see what happened later with Georgia for ex.), the stake being that it was better having these countries on the EU side, even if in a hasted manner, rather than potentially against the EU at a later stage. Political Europe was further damaged through positions taken over the second War in Iraq, and the Bush administration splitting Europe into three (in G. W. Bush's own words). Quite sad, if one thinks of the US as one of EUs founding fathers and the reasons for which it did it. In any case, this was the demonstration that the EU members were not yet able to stand united over an important matter. The fall of USSR also lowered the stakes on a military point of view, with the US shifting its focus on other parts of the world, like Asia.

To-date, the EU has not been able to take its full responsibilities in taking over its defense in a united manner. This has a lot to do with the difficulty European countries have to relinquish part of their sovereignty to a higher European authority that remains to be created/enforced. This is further reinforced by the behavior of national politicians: “all the good is thanks to us, all the bad is because of Brussels”, making the European institutions appear as an uncontrolled body disconnected from the European citizens. They just forget to mention that whatever Brussels is doing is being decided through the Council and the Parliament, both manned by Ministers of Member States or directly elected by European citizens. Add to that a disastrous communication capability of the EU institutions, and we end up with European citizens being less and less motivated or interested in the European construction project. In difficult times, like the current economic hardship, Europe can even be used as a scapegoat. But the price to pay is an increasing nationalism. We often say Europe has made progress when facing challenges. Well, I think European countries, starting with their own citizens, have to take their responsibilities and make it happen, one way or the other, before it is too late. I think a good starting point would be to have the European budget financed by European taxes paid directly by the citizens (rather than paid to each government and then reallocated to the European budget). This would surely have the citizens more aware and more interested in the use which is made of that money, raising the stakes of European Parliament elections at the same time, and having the citizens more interested and involved in the decisions that are being made at that level. That would also reinforce European parties with citizens of various countries uniting behind shared political views and values.   
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 15:54:49 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2014, 15:28:08 »
Mike,

as a comment to your sentence: "a good deal of the peace over the past 70 years has to do first with the collective "enemy" of the cold-war, the Russian-Bloc nations behind the once "Iron-Curtain" which of course engendered United States military troop commands numbering in the hundreds of thousands, not to mention the armament, air forces and related".

During the "rightly past times" (i.e. communist rule times), we were saying here in Poland that we look like a horseradish: red to the outside world, and white inside...

Moreover, in the 60's we worked out the procedure about what would be the fastest way of setting Poland free of communism and rejoining the Western world?
Answer: Poland should declare war unilaterally to the United States and surrender five minutes later...
 
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mdsalemi

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2014, 15:49:09 »
Yes Stan--that would be a good idea! Something similar was the plot of a play, "The Mouse that Roared". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared So the idea you have was not a Polish idea, but one from an Irish-American writer named Leonard Wibberley; it was at one time, a staple of High School plays in the USA. It's pretty funny if you can find the movie to watch!

Most Americans (at least this one!) surely know that many of the Eastern-Bloc nations were not behind the iron curtain by choice…hence those Hungarian and Czech issues. We have a large Polish community in the USA so we were always reminded.
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Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 16:04:19 »
GGR,

Your analysis is correct that Brussels is perceived by EU citizens as "them", in other words as an hardly necessary implant. Moreover, many European political leaders build their credibility based on Euro-scepticism or even on rejecting the EU construction. You cannot achieve cohesion by leaving most of the sovereignty to nearly 30 governments that have separate agendas and often-conflicting points of view.

At the same time, the EU project cannot be complete with vast parts of Europe such as Ukraine that tangles between Russia and the EU. At this level of civilisation, cross-interests and historical animosities it is -at least for me- quite difficult to imagine a smooth, negotiated route towards the United States of Europe.

Let's not forget that the USA did start with a war, and a nasty one, and then it was followed by wars with Mexico, which if you really think about it, wasn't a just war at all. And I pass on the fate of native inhabitants. My point is that if you use force in a questionable spirit of justice, things happen much easier, although at huge cost, especially the human one. But... the result is there.

Anyway, those things are complex and complicated, and quite frankly there is no single and just solution...
        
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 16:08:24 by Flyair »
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garymand

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 16:34:57 »
I sounds like I might get a reasonable answer to why the euro and pound are valued higher than the $.  It has never been logical to me.  There must be reasons from a different perspective as to why the $ would be valued 30 to 35% lower.
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66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 18:24:53 »
The logic is easy to grasp, just visit the countries and eat a hamburger!  ;)
Seriously here is a not too serious primer on why the exchange rates of the major currencies are not that far off: http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 18:43:08 »
You cannot achieve cohesion by leaving most of the sovereignty to nearly 30 governments that have separate agendas and often-conflicting points of view.        

This is true. This is why some sovereignty should be transferred to a higher level. It was easier done when the number of states was smaller. We are now left with the option of "reinforced cooperation" where within the Union a smaller group of States goes towards greater political integration. Other States would then choose to join later or not. Basically, the Union would have several levels of integration, with the nucleus being the most integrated. It's already more or less the case with Shengen and the Euro. Some countries need to go further.

At the same time, the EU project cannot be complete with vast parts of Europe such as Ukraine that tangles between Russia and the EU. At this level of civilisation, cross-interests and historical animosities it is -at least for me- quite difficult to imagine a smooth, negotiated route towards the United States of Europe.

The Union does not necessarily need to follow the boundaries of geographical Europe. If the Oural is the boundary, then what happens with Russia? The reinforced cooperation schemes offer the possibility to progress among willing countries, while leaving the possibility to others to join later, at whatever level of integration.

Let's not forget that the USA did start with a war, and a nasty one, and then it was followed by wars with Mexico, which if you really think about it, wasn't a just war at all. And I pass on the fate of native inhabitants. My point is that if you use force in a questionable spirit of justice, things happen much easier, although at huge cost, especially the human one. But... the result is there.

Well, we had the Roman Empire, the Napoleonian Empire, and the 3rd Reich. They all collapsed. But the aftermath of WW2 gave way to a peaceful European construction. USA has a specific history, and opportunities cannot be directly compared. That's not to say there won't be another war in Europe. Sadly, people may have to be reminded why the EU, despite all its shortcomings, is still the best option.

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 18:55:46 »
I wish success to EU, but what can you expect when even Mr. President (of this Group) says elsewhere on this very forum :D:
Heaven Is Where:
The French are the chefs
The Italians are the lovers
The British are the police
The Germans are the mechanics
And the Swiss make everything run on time

Hell is Where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police
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mbzse

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 19:08:16 »
Quote from: GGR
.../... This is why some sovereignty should be transferred to a higher level../...
Hmm, nice idea... Just... who would then decide on and enforce such a transfer...?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 15:22:42 by mbzse »
/Hans S

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 19:13:56 »
I wish success to EU, but what can you expect when even Mr. President (of this Group) says elsewhere on this very forum :D:


Heaven Is Where:
The French are the chefs
The Italians are the lovers
The British are the police
The Germans are the mechanics
And the Swiss make everything run on time

Hell is Where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Indeed, United in Diversity, for better or for worse!

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 19:23:04 »
Hmm, nice idea... Just... who should decide on and enforce such a transfer...?

Well, there are many possibilities regarding higher levels of democratic governance, starting from a loose confederation up to the most integrated versions of a federation. There has already been a lot of work in this regard, with many draft versions of a European Constitution. Adhesion to it by the Nations should go through their national democratic system. We already tried it, and it failed. That is not to say we should not try again! Most importantly, countries that are not in favor should not prevent countries that are in favor from going ahead as a smaller group.

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 21:50:51 »
GGR
Remember, when the EU was still EEU with six countries, the recollection of war atrocities very fresh and NATO had a very strong meaning for every European member? Guess which country started to play the lone rider?

So the fact that today there are many countries forming the EU make any closer construction very difficult, off course, but even among the founding fathers they started disagreements and live as "menage à part" quite soon.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 21:56:57 by Flyair »
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 22:43:16 »
This is true. That shouldn't refrain a group of the willing to go ahead (even if some of the original 6 are not among them). Others will end up joining when they see them progressing.

Regarding NATO, in 1966 France got out of the integrated command, but not of the Alliance. In other terms, France remained an allied, but without having its military forces commanded by a foreign power (likewise, the USA does not allow any of its troops to be under foreign command).

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 23:33:06 »
GGR

this is what I tried to point out without naming the culprit. This is what they call the French exception. Eat the cake and still have it :D

BTW do you know how many soldiers of the valiant French army participated in the D-day operations that aimed at liberating their country?
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2014, 01:15:25 »
Flyair

I think you are mixing several things. Not being part of the  integrated command does not mean there is no military contribution, as Afghanistan has shown recently. The command chain is simply different.

As per the D-day operations, they indeed liberated France, as a side effect I would say. The objective was to open a second front to the West as demanded by Staline, not specifically to liberate France. This could have taken place in Belgium or Holland, if the geography had been more favorable. Not many French combatants took part: 500 parachutists integrated into the British SAS, and a handful of infantry men. You have to keep in mind that France by then had been defeated by the German army and was occupied by it. The Vichy regime had signed an armistice. The French combatants who participated to the D-Day operations were considered as deserters by the French authorities. Further, allied leaders had a hard time recognizing De Gaulle as a legitimate leader (indeed, apart from a radio speech on the 18th of June 1940 out of the UK, he had little legitimacy). For example, Roosevelt went on dealing with Petain for quite a while. De Gaulle was informed on the date of the invasion on the 5th of June, or the day before! This lack of recognition certainly reduced the number of fighters who joined De Gaulle. The French military forces in Northern Africa for example, who were not under German occupation, but reporting to Vichy, would have shifted earlier.

By contrast, the French represented 2/3 of the forces during the second invasion that took place in Provence. And the French resistance played quite a role in the preparation of the D-Day operations through intelligence on the "Atlantic Wall" they managed to gather, and by slowing down, up to some extent, the advance of German reinforcements towards Normandy after the invasion took place. in his Memoires, Eisenhower writes: "Throughout France the Resistance had been of inestimable value in the campaign. Without their great assistance the liberation of France would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves."     



In any case, we are now quite far away from the original topic. These were difficult times, and that's right what should be prevented from happening again. Poland also paid quite a price!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 01:43:14 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2014, 08:30:31 »
"F*** the EU" ;)

(ooh, topical!)
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Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2014, 09:15:37 »
GGR
I feel that I touched a sensitive cord of yours. No need to be defensive by saying that I am mixing things. I am not seeking objectivity, but having both the French and Polish backgrounds puts me sometimes in front on difficult choices (such as vodka or wine ;))

As JamesL, in an unexpected but very efficient way moved the conversation back on track, so there is no choice but to stick to it.

Let's not forget that regardless of the perspective, French, American, Polish or any other, we are here on this forum thanks to.... German cars :)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 09:45:46 by Flyair »
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Peter van Es

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2014, 10:09:52 »
I wish success to EU, but what can you expect when even Mr. President (of this Group) says elsewhere on this very forum :D:

That is a joke, not a political statement....
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2014, 11:19:58 »
"F*** the EU" ;)

(ooh, topical!)

Ha! Ha! In DC they say the taping and its posting on Youtube is courtesy of the Russians, as a payback for all the Sotchi bashing which is currently going on. Good way of torpedoing US efforts in Ukraine, if that was the objective.

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2014, 14:11:40 »
That is a joke, not a political statement....

Peter,
I feel reassured....
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2014, 18:14:32 »
This is what they call the French exception.

Sorry couldn't resist. A cartoon much like this appeared in US publications after the Berlin Disco bombing in 1986 by Libyan terrorists by direction of Khadaffi. For those that don't remember, the USA "retaliation" was US F111 bombing raid on Tripoli; based in England, they were denied fly-over rights from France, necessitating a complex in-air refueling operation, and a lengthy journey. It's all old history now, but I got a good chuckle out of it from whoever the political cartoonist was…interestingly it was apparently Libyan rebels that brought Khadaffi's eventual demise in 2011, not USA or NATO forces and not a divisive bombing raid.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 18:21:31 by mdsalemi »
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2014, 00:55:08 »
As a matter of fact, Italy and Spain also denied fly-over rights for this operation, and apparently Kadhafi was informed of the attack by the then Prime Minister of Malta as US jet-fighters were violating its air space. Not really a French exception on that one, as basically all the countries on the way had the same position. The attack was then condemned by the United Nations' General Assembly as a violation of its charter and of the International Law. I guess the idea behind not supporting that attack was that two wrongs do not make a right. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 02:41:01 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2014, 13:37:17 »
As a matter of fact, Italy and Spain also denied fly-over rights for this operation, and apparently Kadhafi was informed of the attack by the then Prime Minister of Malta as US jet-fighters were violating its air space. Not really a French exception on that one, as basically all the countries on the way had the same position. The attack was then condemned by the United Nations' General Assembly as a violation of its charter and of the International Law. I guess the idea behind not supporting that attack was that two wrongs do not make a right.  

That may be, but in nit-picking detail, Italy and Spain were not really in the way…just France. Whatever.
And, the point of the cartoon is that they didn't seem to have much of a comment in 1944…because it was their @#$ being saved.
(I didn't author the cartoon, I think it was from the NYTimes)
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2014, 15:00:47 »
Actually, biggest detour was caused by Spanish denial, not the French one. Besides, US has military bases in Italy, there must be a reason why they didn't take off from there. UN resolution condemning the attack was passed with 79 votes in favor and 28 against. International opposition to this attack was massive, not exactly a detail. Just trying to bring the cartoon into perspective with the reality, that's all.

French are indeed very thankful to the US and all the other allies about the 1944 invasion, no doubt about that. But hey, if that was all about freeing Europe, there should be no surprise when these freed countries acted as such afterwards.

The discussion is about the European construction anyway, not sure these diversions are bringing anything to it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 18:37:36 by GGR »

mdsalemi

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2014, 19:39:23 »
I beg to differ on  the Spanish diversion; history says otherwise. But forget history--look at a map. France is in the way; Spain would have been a plan B route. France denied flyover rights because they wanted to review the mission. Right or wrong, the US military does not allow any other power to review its missions. ;)
The US didn't take off from Italy, because there is only one USAF base in Italy, Aviano. It holds fighter jets, not bombers. The bombers are in England.
As to the UN resolution, you are correct. But they don't have a stellar track record of fully intelligent decisions.
The US bombing mission in Libya was a failure. Its purpose was to disable the state supported terrorism coming from Libya. The mission failed, and the US didn't pursue it further in such a form directly. Nobody knows this better than the people of Lockerbie, Scotland--additional victims of state sponsored terrorism two short years later.  :(  Some years after that, before his past caught up with him, Qadaffi's Libya paid enormous financial reparations for its part in state-sponsored terrorism. I wonder what the UN had to say about that?
As to the diversions of topic, the cartoon was posted as a long-ago response to one interpretation of the French exception; that itself being one example of the massive complexities of understanding the EU. If you'd like to add 'the Spanish exception" and more, that just validates the complexity suggested. My Austrian friend simplified it for me once. He said that the EU has givers (such as Germany, Austria) and takers (such as Greece) and that's one big root of discontent that will not go away soon. The original video made it clear there's no understanding it, for not only is it massively complex, it's changing all the time!
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2014, 20:29:47 »

As to the diversions of topic, the cartoon was posted as a long-ago response to one interpretation of the French exception

Hardly an exception when the position is shared by most of the rest of continental Europe and nations in the world.

Not being able to review the attack mission for which its air space was to be used is indeed the reason why France refused fly-over rights, even though it had been the victim of Libyan sponsored terrorism itself. Also to be noted that all countries of continental Europe where US has air bases refused to be associated to the attack (including Germany), obliging the US to go through the Gibraltar straight and refueling mid-air. Otherwise they would have refueled in one of the continental bases. As per the UK, Thatcher's approval of the use of Royal Air Force was highly criticized in-country, upsetting even the Queen who apparently called the Prime Minister "uncaring".

Europe is indeed complex, and sometimes discouraging. But I remain convinced it is a lesser evil. It's current state is of course not satisfactory at all, as on a political point of view, it is quite inaudible on the international scene. Apart from the risk of returning towards conflicting situations among European countries, one has to look at nowadays world: US is indeed strong, Russia is getting back on its feet and China is a giant which is awakening. Europe has over 400 millions inhabitants and is the richest economic space on the planet.  But it is not able to defend its interests as an entity, and up to the stakes that are involved. Each European country going alone is not going to get any of them very far.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 16:52:43 by GGR »

jameshoward

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2014, 21:26:43 »
A slight correction there, GGR: you say that Europe is not able to defend its interests as an entirety. That's quite wrong. European states - and I do not include my country in that group - choose not to facilitate, co-operate, or do much more than talk about combined operations. Outside of the UK, which still has the third or forth largest defence budget in the world (I forget which), the European states have CHOSEN not to spend money to defend  their interests. The money is there, certainly; the will is not. The big economic hitters in Europe are big economic hitters on the world stage. But perhaps with the exception of France, which is a bit of an odd one in defence terms (it has high ideals and rates itself, but the reality is less clear cut, plus they're contrary buggers; never forget details Gaulle's comment on targeting of their nuclear deterrent (tous azimuts...)), these nations don't really feature in military terms. I speak purely about military capability; their importance as allies and members of NATO remains fundamental and is critical to the enduring peace in Europe and, largely, elsewhere. These are nothing more than my personal views, of course. And burgundy remains the world's foremost wine... ;D

As for much-discussed bombing mission, the reason the jets left from the UK is simply because the US very much needed not to be seen as going it alone on the world stage. The mission could have been launched from any number of fields in northern, central or southern Europe, or indeed the US. The decision to launch from the UK was solely political and never military.
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2014, 22:01:18 »
James, I was more talking in political and economic terms rather than militarily, though in the end of course, one needs the military to have his positions heard. And it is certainly more a problem of will than a problem of means. I agree with you that European countries, in their majority, did not spend on the military and have relied on the NATO for their protection. In some ways, it may be a blessing as long as there in no more political unity. Who knows what powerful armies would have ended up doing otherwise. What you and me are saying is not incompatible. I think there should be more political integration, and then more efforts put into a common defense. Doing it in the reverse order may be a bit more worrying. If the military is to remain subordinated to the political, the military will remain as un-integrated as the political level is.   
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 01:45:56 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2014, 11:18:38 »
As we reach the 100th anniversary of the beginning of WWI, here is an interesting article by the German Foreign Minister in "Le Monde":

http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2014/02/04/l-europe-ne-doit-pas-oublier-les-enseignements-de-1914_4360096_3232.html

Particularly interesting parts:

"Au lieu de la loi du plus fort, c'est désormais la force de la loi qui régit les rapports entre les Européens. D'aucuns jugent trop pénible, trop lente et trop lourde la recherche de compromis à la table de négociation commune à Bruxelles. Cette année commémorative nous rappelle quelle avancée de civilisation cela représente lorsque de petits et grands Etats, adversaires hier dans d'innombrables guerres sur notre continent déchiré, recherchent aujourd'hui pendant des nuits entières, de façon paisible et civilisée, des solutions communes.

La perte de confiance dans le projet européen qui est apparue pendant les dernières années de la crise économique européenne, en particulier chez les jeunes qui, dans une grande partie de l'Union, souffrent du chômage et du manque de perspectives d'avenir, renferme de grands dangers. Un tel climat est propice à la renaissance d'accents nationalistes, emballés dans la mélodie facile de la critique européenne. L'Histoire nous commande de nous y opposer résolument.
 
(...) La crise de juillet devait-elle à cette époque inexorablement mener à la catastrophe ? Sûrement pas. Et, pourtant, l'exaltation et la prétendue audace avaient plus de poids à l'époque que la courageuse et laborieuse recherche d'équilibre entre les intérêts en présence. Est-il exclu de voir aujourd'hui se reproduire la même chose ? Cela dépend de nous seuls, les responsables, et des leçons que nous tirons de l'Histoire".

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2014, 14:09:57 »
Here is an article on US-EU Relations, following the NSA scandal and the F*** the EU anecdote. Russians are playing it quite well:

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2014/02/09/les-cinq-lecons-du-****-the-eu-d-une-diplomate-americaine_4363017_3214.html

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2014, 18:42:08 »
GGR
this is what I get while hitting the link

La page demandée n'est malheureusement pas disponible
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66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2014, 19:12:41 »
Stan,
take a look at the URL and you'll see "****" in the address. After you added the address in your browser change these 4 stars to the f-word and it should work.
The software here automatically changes all "offensive" words that way.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 19:41:31 by 66andBlue »
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2014, 19:18:43 »
.. Outside of the UK, ... the European states have CHOSEN not to spend money to defend  their interests. ....
Jamie,
why blame them, its nice to have your cake and eat it too? They just play along to let neocons continue their dream of "American exceptionalism". 
Alfred
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2014, 19:40:12 »
Stan,
take a look at the URL and you'll see "****" in the address. After you added the address in your browser change these 4 stars to the f-word and it should work.
The software here automatically changes all "offensive" words that way.

Yes, I tried it and it works.

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2014, 21:08:39 »

Let's not forget that regardless of the perspective, French, American, Polish or any other, we are here on this forum thanks to.... German cars :)

Very true indeed and is it not funny that this makes us here a truly international car forum having members from so many parts of the world and backgrounds!

While the European Union is still a work in progress as I see it anyway, we all know nothing is perfect (the same goes for our Pagoda's there are a few things they could have done different in 1963 ~ I know wait for it :) .... yes they [Mercedes] made improvements here and there up until 1971 when production ended for the Pagoda).

..... for my personal point of view may I add that I for one am grateful for the time and energey the Founding Fathers of the EU have devoted to make it a reality. One of the great bennefits and one that I appreciate the most it has kept war out of Europe and for that we have to thank the founding fathers of setting it all into motion. I for one remember well when in 1963 the then German Chancellor Dr. Konrad Adenauer and French President Charles de Gaulle signed the treaty of friendship on behalf of the French and German population. For two nations that till then where great enemies to accomplish such a task was in my young eyes of 26 at that time a great accomplishment. Like our Pagoda the treaty has made it to 50 years and may it continue along those lines. I place great value on piece, having seen the second world war years as a child in cities like Dresden, Magdeburg and Berlin and how much tragedy, missery and hardship it has caused all over the world.

As I said nothing is perfect, however, in time they will get it right. I place great value on the EU if nothing else it does one thing and that is it keeps everyone in check. Touch wood.

That is all I have to say on the subject ... It's not perfect still it's a good thing.





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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2014, 21:32:26 »
Rolf-Dieter, I think you are a sage and they should have you and people like you talk to the kids in classrooms all over Europe. People of your generation know exactly why the EU does exist. Memory should be kept alive and passed on to the next generations.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 21:43:28 by GGR »

Rolf-Dieter ✝︎

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2014, 00:22:08 »
GGR,

In am just old,  however, young at heart :) unfortunately the past is impregnated in once memory as if it was yesterday.

I had to remind my own family members from younger generations of course what it was like past 1945 when we were kids. For example, stealing coal from the Russian trucks or shall I say stealing them back from the Russians that took them from us so we could heat our home (my sister 2 1/2 years older then I jumping onto the moving trucks and I collected what she trow on the street). Or going to farmers fields outside the city and collecting corn stumples left from the farmers harvest then taking that to the miller that gave us flours and we took that to the baker that gave us a bread to eat. We were not the only ones people all over the world had to deal with similar circumstances. 

I got angry with my own relatives when they complained they have to pay higher taxes so to support German reunification. How soon they have forgotten in what state Europe was in the 40s and how the Allies have helped Germany back on it's feet. Too many Germans have forgotten all about this. Perhaps I have seen more of this since I was born in the former East Germany and we finally made our way across the border into the former West Germany in 1953. Only if one has experienced hardship and hunger can one appreciate what one has today. I'm forever thankful to the Allies that during WWII have put there lives on the line to liberate ocupied Europe from the Crazy Painters vision of the world.

I watch some of the German Talk Shows on DW (Deutsche Welle) and when they talk about the Euro crisis having given so much money to Greece it makes me angrey to watch when they propose to cut Greece out off the EU all those well educated people have forgotten what there forefathers have done to Greece and other now EU members. In my mind Germany today is prosperous only because the Allies have helped them back onto there feet so it's time to pay back as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway as Colin stated in his opening post ..... Everything you wanted to know about Europe (almost)  I bet there are many a stories and there will be more, as long as we remember the past and never forget .... all will be well.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 00:27:10 by Rolf-Dieter »
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2014, 14:24:07 »
A manifesto for a political union in the Euro zone, English version

http://pouruneunionpolitiquedeleuro.eu/en/#.UwIcJJrD_IU

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2014, 14:02:58 »
An interesting analysis looking among others into the rejection of the European Union and the rise of the far right in Europe (in French):


http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2014/05/27/la-revanche-des-declasses_4426956_3232.html

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2014, 21:03:01 »
Seems the rest of the world are quite content seeing the white folk of the world(less than 10% and declining) killing each other, squabbling among themselves for the last centuries.   They are infiltrating Europe and the US.  Look around your neighborhood - Dearborn, France, London, etc.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 12:12:04 by Peter van Es »

Flyair

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2014, 21:13:27 »
Very interesting remarks that this article presents. As usual, my 2 cts: while Nicolas Bouzou, the author, announces that he would talk about Europe, his exposé is limited to France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Denmark or Portugal. He remains impermeable to the idea that Europe is not 6 or 8 Western European countries and not even the 28 countries that form the EU.

The extreme right movements are also very strong and threatening quite surprisingly in countries such as Norway or Russia, but they were omitted from analysis.

Besides, I was amazed when he quoted Switzerland as a non-european country. I gather that for the author EU means the entire Europe, but if this is so, this would put his knowledge of political geography in line with a certain Sarah Palin or alike...
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glenn

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2014, 22:18:53 »
Good persiflage about Palin.  I assume you mean the 'media's' perception of Palin.  The reality of Palin is 180 opposite of what a lot folks would like to think.........  Obama wrote in his book he wants to change America, i.e. destroy America and its 'white' badness.......and he is doing it.......   

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2014, 23:06:08 »
I think the author intends EU when he writes Europe in this article, not its geographical boundaries, which can indeed lead to confusion. He is speaking of the rise of the far right in developed countries. But as you say, other places in the world do witness the same phenomenon. Recent elections in India also show a rise of conservatism there. And of course, all the islamist movements can also be seen as some form of populism / far right. It looks like a great part of the planet is facing the same issue, not only developed countries. The recent economic crisis can explain some of it. But I think there is more to it. I would be interested in reading some analysis about it.

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2014, 12:10:40 »
Gentlemen.

I have edited some of the posts below. The reason for this is that we have members from all over the world and some of the content could be considered defamatory, which is against our terms of use (http://www.sl113.org/terms-of-use.html).

Please do not feel that I am limiting your freedom of speech, or consider it personal. I just want me make sure we are inclusive on this world-wide car forum, and not to let politics get in the way of that goal.

Peter
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2014, 01:43:40 »
Just to clarify: the article is about the rise of the far right in many countries in Europe which, by its associated nationalistic and protectionist discourse uses the European Union, a supranational entity, as a scape goat and blame it for all what is wrong in their eyes. This is leading to the rejection of the European Union by an increasing number of citizens of its member countries (and not by any other part of the world), as seen in the latest European elections.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 18:35:27 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2014, 13:02:38 »
Unfortunately the last few days are showing us once again how the lack of political integration within the European Union makes it a political dwarf on the international scene. While Europe lost 200 of its citizens over the Ukrainian skies, Germans don't want to hear about energetic sanctions because it would hurt their economy, the French don't want to hear about military sanctions because it would hurt some contracts they have and the British don't want to hear about financial sanctions because it would hurt the City. While national governments are pointing fingers at each other, culprits go on undisturbed with their somber business after the appalling way they have been dealing with the victims. Fortunately, in the lot, the Dutch people are teaching us a lesson of dignity and humanity in the way they are welcoming back their lost loved ones.   
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 13:14:24 by GGR »

mdsalemi

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2014, 14:31:48 »
Unfortunately the last few days...the Dutch people are teaching us a lesson of dignity and humanity in the way they are welcoming back their lost loved ones.   

My thoughts exactly. As I read the papers this morning--WSJ, NYT and the Detroit News, aside from the local stuff in each, we have bombings in Africa, the Nigerian kidnapped schoolgirls all but forgotten, Boko Harum running amok, huge continuing issues in the middle east, massive issues in Ukraine…and it goes on and on.

Thankful to be here and safe…I think. :(

As for the Dutch, they know no other way besides dignified.
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DaveB

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2014, 22:32:11 »
I think the author intends EU when he writes Europe in this article, not its geographical boundaries, which can indeed lead to confusion. He is speaking of the rise of the far right in developed countries. But as you say, other places in the world do witness the same phenomenon. Recent elections in India also show a rise of conservatism there. And of course, all the islamist movements can also be seen as some form of populism / far right. It looks like a great part of the planet is facing the same issue, not only developed countries. The recent economic crisis can explain some of it. But I think there is more to it. I would be interested in reading some analysis about it.

Gael I have pondered this question on and off since you posed it. I am unfamiliar with the EU situation and cannot read that French article but my thinking went like this: humans seem to have an innate desire to work together for a common purpose, and also to organise into a hierarchy, leaders being "cult of personality" figures. So leaders can co-opt that communal desire to work together, either for good purposes or bad (good and bad being subjective terms of course). I have just come across an article that sets this out succinctly and even implies that it's amenable to simulation:

In episodes of crisis there is space for reorganization and innovation. Although that sounds attractive, there is a flip side to the coin. Uncertainty is high, control is weak and confused, and problems are often too complex to see clearly how they can be controlled. As discussed in Section 12.4, there is a niche for new "sense-making" in such complex situations of crisis, and a charismatic leader may cause the precipitation of confused feelings into a comprehensive new worldview. It is therefore a time when individuals have the greatest chance to influence events, and a time when not only a Gandhi but also a Hitler can shape the future. More generally, the often-heard opinion that "timing is crucial" in good management and politics may be seen as referring to the window of opportunity offered by the reorganization phase in the Hollings model.

This text is from Scheffer, M. (2009) Critical transitions in Nature and Society, Princeton University Press and the Hollings model is described in Gunderson, LH and Hollings, CS (2001) Panarchy: Understanding transformations in Human and Natural Systems, Island Press

So the far-right leaders are taking their opportunity to create a worldview that a disaffected populace can easily latch onto (for example the opinion expressed earlier that "our problems are due to infiltration of Europe and the US...").

How do we get out of this? Two things I think would be great would be 1) to have far more women running our societal systems and making policy, and 2) recognition that we are all citizens of the earth not just our own insular territories and nations - if only we could all have the astronauts view! 1 may be feasible, 2 perhaps not. Research showing that chimpanzees kill members of neighbouring tribes to acquire new territory (Mitani et al. 2010, Current Biology v20: p. 507-508) is sobering, although also from those authors "we are equally closely related to the other species of chimpanzee, the bonobo. The bonobo does not appear to engage in territorial behaviour and lethal coalitionary aggression."

Regarding point 2 I am very much drawn to Carl Sagan's quote about our pale blue dot:

From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.







DaveB
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2014, 02:05:53 »
Well, you are certainly bringing some interesting perspectives!

I'm quite familiar with the first concept you are bringing, as I have spent many years in war zones assisting civil populations. Most of nowadays conflicts are protracted crises. Passed the emergency response, the next step is usually to contribute towards addressing the root causes of the conflict, which is often quite a complicated matter. No two situations are similar, but some patterns are common. The sequence usually starts with a shock, which can be a natural disaster, an economic crisis etc. This leads to relative deprivation, which is the perception for an individual or a group that they are not living up to their expectations: the young generation may feel they are not doing as well as their parents, a social group may feel they are not doing as well as another group, etc. Relative deprivation leads to frustration which is a condition for mobilization. When people are happy they have no reason and do not feel the need to participate into a fight. On the other hand, frustrated people are much easier to get mobilized. The catalyst is often an opportunistic and charismatic leader. And the easiest way to mobilize people is to designate a culprit for the problems they are facing: it works much better than proposing viable solutions as they usually entail even more sacrifices. But this is also usually the point when things start becoming violent. First to get to power, and then to keep it. Nationalism (being at community, tribal or national level) is usually a tool commonly used in that kind of situation because it pumps up peoples ego (as belonging to the better group) as a response to the previously mentioned frustration. Belonging to the better group also entails that other groups are inferiors and responsible for the problems. This is quite convenient to keep people catalyzed and mask failures, or explain them while rejecting the responsibility on a third party.

Europe went through all that 70 years ago. Though History never repeats itself, some very worrying signs are appearing, and little by little, things that were unthinkable a few years ago are becoming common place. Racism is one of them. A few years ago it was shameful to express racist ideas or to act in a racist manner. People are now quite disinhibited  about it and are expressing it quite openly. Another one is the rise of the far right. These parties are now getting great backing and are political forces to be reckoned with.

More women in power? I'm not sure they would do better, but not worse either. And they are certainly under-represented in leadership positions.

Dealing more kindly with one another and preserving and cherish the pale blue dot? Certainly! But Neo-Malthusian thesis are gaining traction. In a perspective where the blue dot ends up being too populated, competition would be even fiercer and we are not about to see the end of nationalism!
   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 02:36:54 by GGR »

66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2014, 04:10:51 »
.... Certainly! But Neo-Malthusian thesis are gaining traction. In a perspective where the blue dot ends up being too populated, competition would be even fiercer and we are not about to see the end of nationalism!   
Not sure I get the point here. Are you lamenting the fact that Malthus' ideas are looked at again? And if so, that they are considered positive, or negative?  See:
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0803/article_740.shtml
In any case I hope that the views expressed here (http://www.thebreakthrough.org/) are not becoming mainstream thinking.
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2014, 11:26:32 »
Are you lamenting the fact that Malthus' ideas are looked at again? And if so, that they are considered positive, or negative? 

Like in any debate, I guess both sides have fair points and that's also true for the one on modern population. However, I have seen Malthusian ideas used to justify what was not really justifiable. I have worked on several conflicts opposing pastoral/nomadic to sedentary/agricultural communities where competition over resources (water and land) was quite fierce. In many occasions, power was held by the sedentary population and Malthusian ideas have been used to describe pastoral livelihoods as having reached their limits and not being able to sustain the growth of pastoral populations anymore. This led to policies forcing them to sedentarize, and land that had been used for pastoral purposes for generations has been turned into agricultural land. Basically, some interpretation of Malthusian ideas (pastoral livelihood is not viable anymore) has been used to justify the expansion of one side over the other one. Of course, this led to a lot of frustration which can explain in part the current situation in the Sahel. Bring in some opportunistic agenda like Islamism and you have what's happening now.

In Europe, we have also seen some questionalble interpretations of Malthusianism, with the Lebensraum where  territorial expansionism was considered as a law of nature for all healthy and vigorous peoples of superior races to displace people of inferior races; especially if the people of a superior race were facing overpopulation in their given territories. As such, peoples deemed to be part of inferior races living within territory selected to be Lebensraum were subject to expulsion or destruction.

Here, I'm not saying that Neo-Malthusians do not have some fair points. I'm saying that some interpretations of Malthusianism combined with nationalism can lead to humanly disastrous situations.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 13:11:30 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2014, 22:00:52 »
You have a heavy job. You must have seen the very worst and the very best of people.
For a large, resource-hungry mammal, our population is indeed astonishing. It's also something of a juggernaut with a lot of momentum. I agree that more competition and conflict seems inevitable. It would be interesting to see what happens when the chimpanzee and the bonobo territories intersect but I have a feeling I don't want to know that.
No species lasts forever. Now, when we seem hell bent on proving that, perhaps it is time for us to package up the very best of art and design and send it into space so that something, somewhere, sometime understands what we achieved.
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66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2014, 00:40:05 »
... I'm saying that some interpretations of Malthusianism combined with nationalism can lead to humanly disastrous situations.

Absolutely, but one should not blame this on Malthus or any other individual who thought about these problems, put them out for debate, modified them (or not), and provided the proverbial food-for-thought for the next generation of thinkers. People have used recent (after Malthus) phrases - "Volk ohne Raum" - or much earlier ones (before Malthus) - "In the name of God" - to justify their means and advance their agendas against other people.  Humans make war against themselves and against other species, just like any other species does. The difference is that humans have consciousness that for whatever evolutionary reason needs to be satisfied and in doing so creates another set of problems as Harding in his far-reaching 1968 essay "Tragedy of the Commons" (see: http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/ and http://www.sciencemag.org/site/feature/misc/webfeat/sotp/commons.xhtml) has delineated.

..... my thinking went like this: humans seem to have an innate desire to work together for a common purpose, and also to organise into a hierarchy, leaders being "cult of personality" figures. So leaders can co-opt that communal desire to work together, either for good purposes or bad (good and bad being subjective terms of course).  

Humans can easily be made to "feel good" or "do the right thing" and high on the list is charity.  It is one of most cherished endeavors here, whether it is performed because of tax brakes or to make it into the society pages does not matter, the question is, does it do any "good"?
Herschel Elliott, a philosophy and ethics professor at the University of Florida looked at this from a moral standpoint in "A General Statement of Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons".  He writes  ".. ethical behavior must be relative to its most important goal -- to protect and sustain the Earth's diverse yet mutually supporting system of living things. Thereafter the secondary goal of ethics may be addressed, namely, to maximize the quality of human life."  
From this he develops six postulates:
"Learning the effective means for controlling growth requires the repudiation of important causal misconceptions:
(6) Finally, the belief must be discarded that an ethics of good intentions, especially those intentions directed to filling individual or human needs, will automatically produce the good of the whole."


This last one is the most difficult to swallow for those who worship "altruism" in all forms and without consequences.
Most likely you both are aware of the life boat dilemma:
The 50 of us in the lifeboat - with a capacity of 60 - see a 100 others swimming in the water outside, asking for admission to the boat. How shall we respond to their calls?

Anyone ready to give up his place in the boat?

[PS: I can provide you with PDF reprints of the articles that I mention or those published in Science Magazine
and btw, David I really like your picture of the rocket-riding Pagoda!  :)]
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 00:49:29 by 66andBlue »
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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2014, 00:54:53 »
The 50 of us in the lifeboat - with a capacity of 60 - see a 100 others swimming in the water outside, asking for admission to the boat. How shall we respond to their calls?

You take 10 of the swimmers inside and tell the other 90 to huddle together and hang onto the ropes around the outside of the lifeboat (which are there for this purpose). Then you periodically bring some of the swimmers in, and let some of those inside take their turn on the ropes. This way we can all stay alive, perhaps long enough to be rescued.

I would like to see the articles thanks.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 04:11:41 by DaveB »
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66andBlue

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2014, 01:03:07 »
Oops, I forgot to mention that the life boat sits in shark-infested waters. But the sharks do appreciate it that you make it easier for them and line up their prey.  :D
The articles are on their way.
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2014, 02:06:08 »
Dave, I'm not doing that job anymore. After several years I started having that strange feeling that I had been lucky too many times and that it was not going to last for ever. Those were indeed the most intense years of my life and I learned a lot. I miss it sometimes.

I'm optimistic. We will find solutions. Population is supposed to peak this century. Development and increased consumption across the world is surely going to bring challenges. But we can hope that progress, lifestyle evolution and common sense will keep the planet a nice place to be on for the foreseeable future.

Alfred, I agree that we live in a finite world, but I also think we did not explore all its potentialities yet. I also agree that many times trying to do good in an uninformed manner (and even sometimes in an informed one) can yield side effects that are worse than the initial problem. One of the first principles one learns in the job I was doing is the "do no harm" one. It is sometimes difficult to identify what is going to be harmful or not, in politically very loaded contexts for example. In last resort I had to stick to the humanitarian principles which are drawn from the Geneva conventions (The Wikipedia page gives a good overview of what they are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_principles), even if there are some negative consequences, as long as the output is globally positive (and yes, sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something). Ethical issues appear everyday in an acute emergency situation, and they are not always dealt with in the same way. Contexts, people, means are different, actions and outcomes will also be different.

In your example, if the 50 guys are the developed world, the boat the resources, and the 100 guys the developing world, you have to realize that by denying someone access to resources in order to keep your lifestyle you are de facto giving that person the right to deny you the same thing. It can get ugly very quickly, with the long term advantage to the developing world as frustration will be on its side. In the end, you may loose more by engaging in a confrontational approach than in a collaborative one. Confrontation will be a negative sum game. Collaboration, with the help of progress, has most chances to be a positive sum one.

Having the boat overrun and sunk will be worse for everybody.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 02:17:07 by GGR »

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2014, 05:56:22 »
Having the boat overrun and sunk will be worse for everybody.
Gael,
absolutely correct!
At the risk of boring even more members here who stumble into this "way of topic" topic I want to emphasize that the life boat metaphor was  taken from Hardin. Here is his answer to the question he posed:
There are several possibilities.
One. We may be tempted to try to live by the Christian ideal of being "our brother's keeper," or by the Marxian ideal (Marx 1875) of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Since the needs of all are the same, we take all the needy into our boat, making a total of 150 in a boat with a capacity of 60. The boat is swamped, and everyone drowns. Complete justice, complete catastrophe.
Two. Since the boat has an unused excess capacity of 10, we admit just 10 more to it. This has the disadvantage of getting rid of the safety factor, for which action we will sooner or later pay dearly. Moreover, which 10 do we let in? "First come, first served?" The best 10? The neediest 10? How do we discriminate? And what do we say to the 90 who are excluded?
Three. Admit no more to the boat and preserve the small safety factor. Survival of the people in the lifeboat is then possible (though we shall have to be on our guard against boarding parties).
The last solution is abhorrent to many people. It is unjust, they say. Let us grant that it is.
"I feel guilty about my good luck," say some. The reply to this is simple: Get out and yield your place to others. Such a selfless action might satisfy the conscience of those who are addicted to guilt but it would not change the ethics of the lifeboat. The needy person to whom a guilt-addict yields his place will not himself feel guilty about his sudden good luck. (If he did he would not climb aboard.) The net result of conscience-stricken people relinquishing their unjustly held positions is the elimination of their kind of conscience from the lifeboat. The lifeboat, as it were, purifies itself of guilt. The ethics of the lifeboat persist, unchanged by such momentary aberrations.


Quote
I'm optimistic. We will find solutions. Population is supposed to peak this century.

Perhaps. But consider when WW1 started there were 1.8 billion of us and that was dense enough to have an influence on the start of that war. Now we have about 7.2 billion brethren and the prediction is that perhaps another 3-4 billion will be added by 2050 (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/), way more than those who felt in 1914 that their neighbors were too close and were breathing down their necks. Or in your words, we will have a lot more people who now have the right (!) to deny us our lifestyle because their parents had no problems with their desires to procreate more than they and the earth can afford!
No, overpopulation is the crux of the problem and little was and is done curb it.  
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2014, 09:21:07 »
I wasn't aware that perceived overpopulation was one of the underlying reasons of WWI, but if so, the very fact that we are today 7.2 billion proves that the perception was wrong.

Depending on estimates, the planet's carrying capacity ranges between 4 and 16 billion. A lot of the variations are due to the expected consumption level per capita and the contribution of expected technological progress. Population is estimated to peak at 10 to 11 billion and then start declining. So viability will be a question of keeping average consumption per capita to a sustainable level. This may entail controlling the rise in consumption in developing countries and adjusting it in the developed ones.   

Demographic transition happens when a society reaches a certain level of development (and family planning is part of it, so I'm not saying nothing should be done about it). For the ones who are post-transition to call the other ones irresponsible while going on consuming way above what the planet can afford per capita in average is not very responsible either. Pointing at over population of others to preserve one's over-consumption is not going to work. And it is making my earlier point that we are not about to see the end of nationalism based on some Malthusian arguments.

The problem is global, and the solution has to be global. Reducing consumption, whether effective for some, or targeted for others, does not necessarily mean a reduction in quality of life (hey, modern MBs get better mileage, while being safer and more comfortable than our Pagodas!). This is where progress has to come in. The good news is that population is supposed to peak. So there is a point of balance somewhere. Now we - humans - have to decide if we reach it through a negative sum game or a positive sum one.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 14:27:30 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2014, 14:55:34 »
I was looking at some figures: the two countries with highest household final consumption expenditure per capita are the United Arab Emirates with $34,561 and the USA with $34,433. The quality of life index for these two countries are respectively 7.33 and 7.38 (out of 10).

The two countries with highest quality of life index are Switzerland and Austria with 8.22 and 8.12 and their household final consumption expenditure per capita are respectively $26.470 and $22.413.

So basically, by taking Austria as a model, it would be possible for people in the US to keep their quality of life index while reducing their consumption expenditure per capita up to $20.370 [(22.413/8.12)x7.38]. That is over 40% [(34,433-20,370)/34,433] reduction in consumption while keeping the same quality of life.  I know I'm being over-simplistic, but it still shows there is a lot of room for reducing consumption without necessarily reducing quality of life. There is even room to improve it while still reducing consumption, where bringing the American quality of life up to the Austrian one, which would be a 10% increase, could still be done while reducing consumption by 35%.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 21:44:19 by GGR »

Rodolfo

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2014, 15:37:42 »
To GGR,

you are completely right. As a matter a fact when we look back when we were most happy, it is not the period with the most possessions. And at this moment we are more happy when we do things, then when we have things.
 Taking that in account I learned myself to have more free time to do things and getting rid of for instance the CLS 500 and so on. Much nicer life now. I will follow that road even more. Now that I am 50, I will get rid of a lot of other expensive habbits and just make sure I can work less and do more. Including big house with garden. Will go to appartment and will just travel half of the time.

Rudy

DaveB

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2014, 21:04:59 »
'More life less possessions' is just the philosophy we need. Unfortunately a large proportion of our productivity and workforce are devoted to creating unnecessary possessions and there is a sophisticated and powerful marketing industry creating a demand for those possessions.

I believe, and many others have stated this I'm sure (Thoreau for a start) that many of our modern problems arise from our separation from nature. We have evolved grounded in nature, not only depending on it for sustenance but also aesthetic appreciation and satisfaction, and a constant delivery of life lessons (like the understanding that virtually every plant and animal conquers multiple challenges on a daily basis just to survive). So when a kid grows up without that, cocooned in a city, they have a hollow space that they don't comprehend. A perfect marketers target perhaps.

So are you sure you want to downsize from the garden Rudy? Although I guess you plan to make the world your garden, I wouldn't argue against that :)
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GGR

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Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe (almost).
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2014, 22:41:30 »
Rudy, you are bringing the interesting philosophical debate on "to have" vs "to be". I did find a discussion on it in French: http://www.philomag.com/lepoque/dialogues/comte-sponville-viveret-bruckner-etre-ou-avoir-4566     Sorry, I couldn't find anything related in English through a quick search.

Dave, the discussion starts by saying that in our current capitalist world, the idea of happiness is targeted at consumption, which is rejoining your idea that powerful marketing is creating a demand for possessions.

An interesting way of reducing consumption without reducing quality of life is a shift from "have" towards "use", the idea behind the concept of sharing economy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharing_economy We're already doing it at our level on this forum, by exchanging tips on how best to keep our cars on the road in the most cost effective manner, selling to and buying from each-other used parts at a fraction of their price new, or passing on stuff to each other like that thingie to repaint hubcaps that has now embarked on a world tour. Some other enthusiasts organize themselves into groups and shared ownership/expenses to restore vintage airplanes. It's a way to do more with less. I would love to turn wrenches on a Ferrari 250 GTO and drive it for a fraction of its price. I already share a '72 BMW 3.0 CSI with a friend. This is the car I use when I go back to France on holydays. I'm getting the absolute best out of it for only half the cost. And knowing that my best friend owns the other half of it doesn't bother me at all. On the contrary, I'm happy to share it with him.


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Colin,

You started this. Your to blame.

 Next will be the manifestos on the Meaning of Life :D or have we already moved there. ::)
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If Putin, IS, being in/near Gaza, continued nuclear meltdown from Fukushima doesn't get you, Ebola will!

And on that upbeat note... ???
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 14:47:31 by JamesL »
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