WYSIWYG?

[stickandrudderman]

WYSIWYG is a computer term for "What You See Is What You Get"

I've used it as a humorous introduction to a great example of why this is most certainly not the case when buying a used car!
I'm often irritated by car dealers' ability to polish a turd and command much higher prices for cars than is justifiable and here is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about.

I've just started this restoration for a customer and we've stripped the car and had it acid dipped. In my experience this is the only way to do a proper restoration as it fully reveals all of the structural faults in all their naked glory so one can rectify them to the highest possible standard.

As soon as I saw the car I knew what to expect but then I'm in my 35th year of doing this professionally so I have a head start over the average enthusiast. The giveaway of course was the fact that the entire engine bay was covered in thick, black underseal. The uninitiated won't realise the alarm that this should cause but we all know don't we that this is incorrect and likely to be covering up more sins than blackout curtains on a brothel window.

This photo is probably the best one you're ever going to see that demonstrates what I'm talking about!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tsjef4grl387dy0/2013-10-11%2010.33.19.jpg

Another photo of the whole car:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwpf8fcouhvnjix/2013-10-11%2016.06.51.jpg

Here's what the car looked like before I started:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/900hyzahsbm1w6l/IMG_0638.JPG

[bogeyman]

OMG!

[Paul & Dolly]

Stick,

I hope you are going to enter this for the Turner prize - before you remove important work of art...
It could soon be in Tate Modern in London.

Please contact

www.artscouncil.org.uk › News & press - For a list of previous unbelievable Turner Prize Winners

Paul 

[stickandrudderman]

Stick,

I hope you are going to enter this for the Turner prize - before you remove important work of art...
It could soon be in Tate Modern in London.

Please contact

www.artscouncil.org.uk › News & press - For a list of previous unbelievable Turner Prize Winners

 

[Larry & Norma]

 

[jameshoward]

Jesus. It looks like it would take more effort to formulate that patchwork than to just weld in a new panel.

Do you know what he paid for it, Colin? Judging by the looks of of the 'before' photo, not too much, I hope.

[stickandrudderman]

Actually, I bought it on ebay. I paid £17,000 for it sight unseen.
Why? It's a RHD original 5 speed but that fact wasn't disclosed or even understood by the seller. Once i'd checked the data card I made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
There are probably less than 10 of these in existence. I was going to keep it as my own personal token of a lifetime's work but a customer wanted it............
You can see a lot more photos here:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z3koin3ukrzo1v6/MGet4gh_m_ and I'll be adding pics to this file as the project progresses over the next couple of years.
You'll see from those photos that the headlamp bowls are also a work of art!

[iftykhan]

Colin

With the price of scrap metal at the moment, you've probably got a few quid when you weigh in what you'll be removing!!

[star63]

You'll see from those photos that the headlamp bowls are also a work of art!

And I thought mine was rotten...
You just made my day!

- Petri

[Flyair]

this car should get documented in some kind of manual for welding apprentices. wouldn't it be cheaper in terms of work hours to replace it with the right stuff in one piece? 

[Benz Dr.]

I've seen worse than this and saw them put back together. Never a good feeling when you find out all that cleavage is little more than kleenex. :'(

[280sl1968]

When you acid dip a car like this, does it literally remove everything (ie paint, filler, rust, etc) and leave solid bare metal, or is there some other manual prep work involved beforehand?



David

[stickandrudderman]

From the steel parts it removes absolutely everything and just leaves you clean metal to work with, no prep required other than making sure you strip the car of course. The aluminium parts (aloominum to some) go into a different bath and this will only remove paint, not filler. That has to be removed by old fashioned methods.
One might normally expect to have to immediately give everything a coat of primer but that is not the case. You set about making your repairs and just let the surface corrosion happen. Once you've finished your repairs it goes back in the acid bath and from there straight in to an electro-primer bath. In the photo taken in my warehouse there's a green pagoda behind this one that has been primed in this way and it's like a brand new shell. (It had no rust to begin with).

[Atazman]

That car was built 323 cars after mine that was originally sent to Italy.

[Jonny B]

I am almost typeless (since I can't speak with the keyboard)! What a project, and I would agree with all the small panels and welding, just amazing.

[tel76]

The Ebay seller was fully aware that he was selling a five speed, I had several conversations with this man at his home number in Liverpool ( He made the five speed a large selling point), these conversations culminated in me offering £20000 for the car subject to me seeing the detailed pictures of the car (which his son in law had supposedly taken) and then seeing the car in Southport where it was in a garage.
When I did not receive the pictures I telephoned him and he told me that the car had been sold to a Colin in London.
You have to get up early in the morning to get the better of a scouser.

[stickandrudderman]

There was no mention of it being a 5 speed in the advert, only that it was a manual transmission. I called him and asked him the question and only then did I know it was a 5 speed. Anyway, it's all academic now.
Once you had seen the advertisement pictures would you have paid 20k for it? I suspect that many would, including many dealers who would have polished it up and sold it to some unsuspecting innocent for 50K. A lot of cars that I see are, in reality, much like this one but they have had rudimentary repairs done over the years and had some fresh paint tossed over them by unscrupulous dealers and sold to ignorant bankers looking to spend their bonus.
The gentleman I've sold this one to nearly bought a 280 from a well established London classic car dealer who has a massive show-room in a prominent location. The asking price was 49K but after I'd carried out my pre-purchase inspection my customer saw the light. That 49K car was at a disadvantage to the one in the pictures here in that the patches covering the holes had been SILICONED in place rather than braized or welded!

[jameshoward]

Good old Wandsworth roundabout...they never change

[GGR]

I feel so lucky to have found an original quasi rust-free car. The car had a lot of dings here and there, but all the undercarriage and most of the body was in original paint and undercoating, so no masking work there. What I was seeing was indeed what I was getting. It took me a long time to find that car within my budget, as all the ones I was seeing in my area were absolute rust buckets.

From my car hunting I realized that "good looking" rust buckets do fetch more money than solid cars that do not show too well. That was my luck. However it tells you a lot about the market. People who bought rust buckets do not necessarily engage into the massive and expensive work required to put them right, and they try to recoup their money or even make a benefit when they pass it along. This is detrimental to the value of solid cars, as difference in price is not to their advantage.

That process of dipping shells into acid, doing the repairs and then dipping them again and electro-priming them is very interesting, as it also treats all the cavities. What is the cost of such a process? (only the two acid baths and electro-priming, not including body work in between the two acid baths). I may consider that for my next project.

[Paul99]

sort of off topic, but same sort of story, my son has a 20 year old TVR.  he has had it for 7 years or so and knows the car well and does all his own servicing etc.  It passed a good mot all ok, but he decided to rebuild the whole car recently. He want to keep it forever! This meant taking the body off to reveal the chassis.   

The four corners (the bits you cant see or get to with the body on) were all rotten, almost hanging off!  And this is on a well cared for car.  I have seen a couple more similar TVRs now, I would now say any 15 year old or more TVR is the same.

The reality is so many cars get a nice top polish, and people think that if you have something sitting in cold wet English weather for 50 years it wont be rusty!   These cars are all pre-galvanised steel so unless they were kept in a bubble for the last 50 years I cant believe they wont be rusty.  My 66 230 has had 2 complete floors in its life time, last one around 7 years ago, and this was a one owner - kept in a dry underground garage in London.

Shame is most people only look at the top shinny paint!

I guess its buyer beware all the way!      Good luck on the project, looks like fun!

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Hi Colin,

I send redcrosbyr  (Dieter) your way it should make an interesting topic in the forum as you inspect his car and what was done for 20K British Sterling ... I've told him about your shop he lives about 130 miles south of you. I think if you make it a separate thread perhaps it can be added into the technical manual some day in future to warn other members of shops and individuals like Dieter encountered.

Here is the link ---> http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19379.0

[stickandrudderman]

Thanks Rolf, I think he did already call me a couple weeks ago.
Having just re-read that thread it offers a good explanation for the cross braces you can see that we've welded in place across the door shuts to prevent distortion. We also constructed a 25mm square steel frame which is welded to the underside and this is for a car that is going to be put on a jig!

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Colin,

The pictures show that you and your team know your stuff. Keeping distortion under control in any situation is key. Something that the fellow for Dieter did not do and as result he has problems closing his doors. Heat transfer during welding will distort and warp even heavier steel masses. I've designed some large jigs to keep large machined parts in check during repair weld operations.

[pj]

Colin,
your photo sequence shows a lot of details that I haven't seen collected in one place. Thanks!

Thing is, your customer chose this car instead of paying 49k pounds for a different one. But surely by the time you add it all up, the work on this car is going to cost considerably more than 49k, isn't it? I mean, we all know you don't get your money back, right? At least not all of it.

The other thing that scares me is the time. If I thought I could afford to have my car taken apart just over the winter and brought up to a high standard, I would do it. But you figure it will take a couple years?! Wow, there's so much work involved.

[stickandrudderman]

My customer wants the best and is happy to pay. I have told him exactly what he can expect and he has made an informed decision. There aren't many like him around!
It'll take a couple of years because I run a very busy shop whose premises are too small but moving is not an easy option so we won't be on this car full time all of the time, rather there'll be intense periods of activity followed by periods of inactivity. Plus we have 5 other 113 restorations to do!
Bear in mind that this car is being restored in the finest detail, but not as a show car. At this stage we don't plan on ensuring that the underseal is the correct colour or that the overspray in the wheel arches replicates how it would have been from the factory and no polished cam covers etc.  Even the chrome dash vents have been disassembled for re-chroming and we'll have to make the pins in-house to re-assemble them. There's probably 10 hours work in those two items alone.

[Russell]

i have seen the car in the flesh and i can concur it is an amazing piece of work and no mistake. there is hardly a panel that hasnt had a heinz can stuck in it at some point and the dipping is incredible showing up every flaw. what you might not get is the bracing that is in place is the only thing holding the car together and trust me on that. there is so much rot if that car ever had a flat and someone jacked it up it could have been in two bits instantly. a clever move but thats experience for you
an incredible project and fair play to the owner and i hope he allows Colin to share the pictures as it moves along as it would be a remarkable read for a very rare car.
if ever there was a warning about buyer beware this has to be it. so anyone with thick dollops of black everywhere, there is a fair chance that's all it is. there is no comfort in it