Author Topic: Winshield Post Seals (Read 14029 times)

71Beige280SL · « **on:** November 15, 2012, 13:57:51 »

I have an unexpected annoyance with my interior restoration. The windshield post seals that run in front of the side windows were replaced. The seals are not sufficiently "slippery" to allow the windows to crank up or down freely. The window gets stuck. I have to open the door to crank the window. As I recall, the old seals had some type of fabric wrap that solved this problem. Any suggestions for a fix? A picture attached courtesy of Bud's Benz.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #1 on:** November 15, 2012, 18:38:33 »

Not having seen what you have, I just have a couple of questions--

Are you certain that the problem is these seals? Are the seals OEM or aftermarket? I don't think mine have any fabric on them, but the windows move freely. Mine are original to the restoration but that does not mean they were OEM. I think I got a whole kit from Millers at the time.

The tonneau soft top seal comes in both an OEM and aftermarket version. The OEM has a fabric-tape cover on part of it (and this is the part that wears out!!) and sells for like $150. The aftermarket is all foam rubber--no fabric--and is about $35.

71Beige280SL · « **Reply #2 on:** November 15, 2012, 19:05:48 »

Thanks Michael. I am sure the problem is with the seals. The windows operate perfectly with the door open. I checked the window alignment as the window moves up and down. No issues. I had the panels off the doors during restoration to ensure the window mechanisms were mechanically sound. They were good.

Concerning OEM vs. aftermarket...My seals have no fabric-tape cover so, I assume they are aftermarket. The seals prior to restoration had the fabric-tape and you are right! They did wear out. I have a preservative that keeps rubber parts soft and pliable. I wonder if that would work?

Hesitant to go down that path.

Garry · « **Reply #3 on:** November 15, 2012, 21:43:05 »

You are correct that the seals you have purchased are after market and do not have the fabric covering which is important for the smooth raising of the windows.

Had the same problem a few years back. Replaced the seals with the correct ones and hey presto no more problem. Some of the vendors advertising on this forum actually identify the difference in front rubbers and sell both, price being the driver for cheaper after market that are not suitable and usually end up being replaced.

There are some places where you don't scrimp, they are one and the other is the front windshield rubber that needs to be OEM if you want to get the correct seal.

Garry

66andBlue · « **Reply #4 on:** November 15, 2012, 22:35:16 »

Quote from: 71Beige280SL on November 15, 2012, 19:05:48

... I am sure the problem is with the seals. The windows operate perfectly with the door open. ...

I am not so sure.
The fact that the window goes up and down smoothly when the door is open is no guarantee that the tilt angle or the center position (->front / <- rear) are NOT misaligned. If this is the case you may not notice it when you are cranking the window up and down when the door is open.

As you know, and as you can see in the attached photo, there are only three areas where it can have too much friction, either on the front or rear edge, or the inside side edge, or all three. You need to find out which one it is by having a helper inside cranking up the glass while you watch and see where it hits the seal. Initially on the A-pillar these areas should only lightly touch the seal and only when you go up close to the top should there be pressure on the seal.
While the fabric helps to cut down friction a bit - it mostly helps to prevent scuffing up the side edge of the glass - it will not make that much of a difference compared to bare rubber. But you can test that yourself by spraying some soapy liquid onto the rubber and check whether it now goes up more smoothly.
As an aside, the white speckles visible in the photo are the wax that is released from the OEM seal - it takes forever to get that stuff off!!

Garry · « **Reply #5 on:** November 15, 2012, 22:42:27 »

The other thing that will also be part of the cause of binding is that the glass is not adjusted correctly and as it winds up tends to push against the seal as it does not raise squarely. It is when this happens that the material stops the window binding on the rubber.

Wolfmann · « **Reply #6 on:** November 15, 2012, 22:47:00 »

I had the same issue. Used a silicone lubricant and it fixed the problem

71Beige280SL · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2012, 01:07:09 »

Many thanks! I am likely to have both issues...window alignment and fabric covered seal. As I crank the window up from the down position, the front edge of the window binds about 4" up. Back edge doesn't seem to be a problem. OEM vendor recommendation anyone?

Garry · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2012, 01:24:43 »

BUds sell the originals for $32 each left and right http://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/200/O%20-%20Rubber%20Seals

Mercedes Classic Centre also sells them. Worth the comparative price check but ask that they have the cloth cover of the originals

66andBlue · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2012, 01:56:15 »

That price for an OEM seal is about right - the list price on the German Classic Spare Parts portal is 18.71 Euro and the dealer list price here is $34.50. Most likely the Classic Center (Irvine) price will be a little less. The part number is A1137251766.

Raymond · « **Reply #10 on:** November 22, 2012, 16:57:55 »

Like Garry. The aftermarket seals I had binded like the soft rubber they are. The OEM stuff is far superior and I bet you a beer it solves the problem without having to mess with lubricants.

71Beige280SL · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2012, 18:58:54 »

Just hung up with Bud's. Ordered the OEM Windshield Post seals from them. $64 for both. Not too bad. Definitely cloth covered.

FRITZ68 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2012, 02:11:13 »

I had a similar problem with my 1930 LaSalle convertible - windows were so tight that I thought the crank handles were going to break. I sprayed inside the channel with clear silicone spray and the problem was solved immediately. I may have to spray again some day, but it sure beats disassembling the door panel and window assembly.

Fritz

Jack Jones · « **Reply #13 on:** December 12, 2012, 03:14:25 »

A good method to cure sticky seals is to apply baby powder to the seal. The issue with silicone is there is no going back once you spray the seals as it is very difficult to remove totally without damaging the rubber.

FRITZ68 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2012, 03:49:47 »

Baby powder sounds good for rubber. On my LasSalle the side window channels were the "U" shaped type with fuzzy material. For that appliction the silicone did the trick. I have two Mercedes (1968 280SL and a 1962 SEb). However, my 1930 LaSalle is not bad either. The side windows go straight up and down and I sprayed the silicone inside the u channel. I will try the baby powder on the Mercedes, as one of them has fairly tight windows.

Thanks for the tip.

Fritz

franjo_66 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2012, 21:56:40 »

Absolutely stunning cars Fritz.....I would love a W111 in my garage......one day

rutger kohler · « **Reply #16 on:** December 23, 2012, 00:01:58 »

I have just got new windshield post seals to fit to my 280SL. I thought it would be pretty easy to remove the old ones after I took the upholstered trims off the inside of the windshield, however I have removed the 1 small screw on the bottom of the interior chromed angle and the top upholstered trim about the windshield but the chrome strip doesn't look like it will let go. I guess I am going to have to remove the hardtop to get the top off the chrome angle off but the bottom should be a lot looser I would have thought? I have read some previous posts where others have used sealant to prevent water leaks but the resistance I am feeling seems more than a sealant holding the bottom on. can anyone help plse? Have attached a photo to show where I am up to.

66andBlue · « **Reply #17 on:** December 23, 2012, 00:41:35 »

If you have the rubber seals in mind then there is no need to take any of the chrome trim pieces off. Just lift the old rubber seal out of the channel. But be careful there may be a barbed clip sitting underneath in a hole in the channel that prevents the seal from sliding up or down.

rutger kohler · « **Reply #18 on:** December 23, 2012, 01:29:38 »

Hi thanks for that, after your post i removed one of the old post seals with a pair of pliers. On fitting the new ones I guess you enter one of the slots in the new seal, at the top and then squash the slot on the other side with a screwdriver and work your way down until the whold new seal is fitted? There is no way you could enter both slots at the bottom and slide the whole new seal up is there? Will put some sealant in first.

On another matter I want to remove one of the door cards and have followed the manual as closely as i can to achieve this, however on my 1969 280SL the escutcheon plate behind the interior door handle won't let go and there does not apper to be a screw holding in that you can remove from the inside of the car. The Manual only describes an early 230SL which has a different arrangement. Can you help plse?

66andBlue · « **Reply #19 on:** December 23, 2012, 01:43:37 »

Rutger,
that is correct. Especially with the barbed clip in place you cannot slide the seal up or down (I have added another photo to my previous post showing this clip). Usually I wedge the seal below the outside lip first and then push the inside shoulder in with a screw driver blade. Also trim the seal after you have placed it into the channel to fit the horizontal seal on the hard top and the soft top exactly. If there is an open space between those in the upper corner you'll have a perfect whistle!
Best to trim the bottom length of the A-pillar seal last until you are sure that the upper part fits its mates. If it doesn't you can always remove it and move it up a bit and trim again.
I'll try to answer your other question later after looking at my photos again.

66andBlue · « **Reply #20 on:** December 23, 2012, 02:22:46 »

Quote from: rutger kohler on December 23, 2012, 01:29:38

... On another matter I want to remove one of the door cards and have followed the manual as closely as i can to achieve this, however on my 1969 280SL the escutcheon plate behind the interior door handle won't let go and there does not apper to be a screw holding in that you can remove from the inside of the car. The Manual only describes an early 230SL which has a different arrangement. Can you help plse?

I am not sure what you mean with "escutcheon plate behind the interior door handle". Below is a photo of a 280SL door from Brian Peters' web site. I have added red arrows showing the screws that you need to remove on the passenger door to get the panel off. That is, the grip handle and another screw in the center which I believe is one of the screw holding the soft pocket, but I cannot quite remember.
The chrome trim behind the lock release is not screwed on, it comes off by prying it out. The arm rest stays with the panel.

Jordan · « **Reply #21 on:** December 23, 2012, 02:45:10 »

Rutger, when I replaced my window trim I started at the bottom and used a plastic edger, the ones you can get at a paint supply store (red and about 1" across), to push in the opposite side. Better than a screw driver which can scratch your chrome trim. The rubber trim for both windows is the same so one of them will have a sold plug at the top when finished and the other will have it open (the plug will be at the bottom). I used 3M rubber compound to fill the plug, let it sit for a day to dry and then used a razor (the ones where you get 5 or 10 in a tiny case) to shave it straight so that both sides looked the same. I believe I had 2 of those barbed clips on each window and the one edge that sticks out was at the top of my window, not at the bottom at shown in Alfreds photo. Perhaps it was installed incorrectly by someone in the past but I left it at the top. I have a late 230SL door with hard pockets so can't help you with the screws.

66andBlue · « **Reply #22 on:** December 23, 2012, 02:55:10 »

Quote from: Jordan on December 23, 2012, 02:45:10

... The rubber trim for both windows is the same so one of them will have a sold plug at the top when finished and the other will have it open (the plug will be at the bottom). I used 3M rubber compound to fill the plug, let it sit for a day to dry and then used a razor (the ones where you get 5 or 10 in a tiny case) to shave it straight so that both sides looked the same. ...

Good point, Jordan. Another possibility is to take out the plug at the bottom end and reinsert it into the top. It can be pulled out easily with thin needle nose pliers.

rutger kohler · « **Reply #23 on:** December 23, 2012, 06:10:37 »

Guys, thanks for that, very useful, what is the purpose of the plugs, do you think? I like the idea of using a spatula too and will do that. When i pulled the old seals out I noticed that a countersunk screw was protuding out at the bottom of each slot which houses the seal, perhaps these are screwed in afterwards as well? Alfred, thanks for your comments and photos on removing the door card but I am somewhat earlier in the project and have decided to start another thread with a photo which might make it clearer where I am at.

cheers

Rutger K

Jordan · « **Reply #24 on:** December 23, 2012, 13:27:13 »

I assume the plugs are to keep water and dirt out. If it rains and you don't have a top up, or maybe washing your car, you don't want water or grit collecting inside your windshield seal. There are no screws to deal with if just replacing your windshield seals. Pull off the old and reinstall the new (including reinstalling crimps etc).

66andBlue · « **Reply #25 on:** December 23, 2012, 20:06:17 »

Quote from: rutger kohler on December 23, 2012, 06:10:37

... I noticed that a countersunk screw was protuding out at the bottom of each slot which houses the seal, perhaps these are screwed in afterwards as well? ...

Rutger,
I have seen that a lot too. I think what happens is that if you start at the top and screw (4mm machine screw) each one in completely by the time you reach the last one at the bottom the channel is no longer aligned with the holes and it wont go into the conical hole. Better to attach all of them partially and then center them alternating one by one. I have also seen wrong sheet metal screws used there and of course then the thread is gone and a machine screw may not fit properly. But as Jordan wrote already wrote, all screws are screwed in firmly before you add the rubber seal.

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Author Topic: Winshield Post Seals (Read 14029 times)

Wolfmann

FRITZ68

FRITZ68