Author Topic: Replacement engine - Origins  (Read 7513 times)

Bonnyboy

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Canada, BC, North Vancouver
  • Posts: 909
  • 1969 280sl Euro 4sp LSD
Replacement engine - Origins
« on: December 09, 2011, 23:14:53 »
Following on the heels of the thread about matching numbers it got me thinking. Does anyone know the process for an engine to become a replacement engine.      I have been told that the engine in my car, Benita the Sleeping Beauty - 69 Euro - is a replacement engine from MB.  We expect that it was replaced sometime in the late 70's early 80's. 

Would it have been a brand new engine  or would they be a rebuilt engine using some new parts or all new parts?  Does anyone know?

ALSO...Anyone from Vancouver remember someone from the Royal Vancouver Yacht club in the early 80's driving a White Pagoda?  I have Royal Vancouver Yacht Club stickers on the soft top and hard top.  It would be nice to get some history.

Ian in North Vancouver BC
Ian
69 280SL
65 F-100
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC
83 VF 1100C
94 FLHTCU
08 NPS50
12 Pro 4X

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5700
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 07:41:06 »
I suppose there were always three alternatives when an engine needed rebuilding: rebuilding the original one, replacing it with some other, previously used, engine, or getting a new replacement engine from the factory. The replacement engines came without a number and the installer could punch in the original engine number (which presumably many did, and so those cars only appear to have the original engine when in fact they do not). Also when another, used (usually sedan) engine was installed, either rebuilt or not, the installer could elect to grind off the original number and punch in the number that was on the original Pagoda engine, something that can still be done today.
Rebuilds can be anything from disassembly, inspection and replacing just a few parts, to replacing everything possible. For example: does one keep the pistons and only replace the rings, or replace both; only grind the valves or replace them; replace or not the crankshaft and camshaft? Sometimes someone will say that the engine was rebuilt when they only did the head and not the block. In any case, there are various tests that can be done to determine the condition of the engine (compression, leakdown).
And it would appear to me that, in days gone, it may have been cheaper to order a new engine from the factory than rebuild the original one, because there are just so many replacement engines around. At least a few years ago, new engines were still available from Mercedes, but they cost close to $30,000 so it's definitely cheaper to rebuild an existing one. It seems like in the old days the price differential was reversed - but is there anyone who has actually ever bought a new factory engine here who could confirm this?
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Atazman

  • Associate Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, Ca, Pleasanton
  • Posts: 282
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 20:13:05 »
Hi Cees.....

In answer to your thread....... I did buy a new Mercedes short block for my 250 SL in 1984.  Cost was not bad back then.... about $3500.  I just took my tag off the old engine and saved it.
Don
67 250 Sl
(#3168) from Italy
5-speed/Posi/AC/Kinder

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5700
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 20:31:23 »
Thanks Don!
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

49er

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, El Dorado Hills
  • Posts: 1426
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2011, 20:45:35 »
My replacement engine (short block) was "free" as the car was still under it's new car warranty. Best deal of the day:-)

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

TR

  • Guest
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2011, 21:23:18 »
My '71 280SL also got a new free engine at 21,000 miles.  Not sure what the issue was though.

49er

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, El Dorado Hills
  • Posts: 1426
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2011, 22:19:54 »
Mine was replaced at the 20241 mile mark and 20 months after delivery. The car had excessive oil consumption. They, MB, reconditioned the valves and seats as well as replacing the engine. Here is a copy of the Work Order and it only took them two days to swap out the engine.

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

Bonnyboy

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Canada, BC, North Vancouver
  • Posts: 909
  • 1969 280sl Euro 4sp LSD
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 01:01:28 »
I called Mercedes Benz Classic centre today and John in Parts told me that my number plate on the engine corresponds to the part number for a rebuilt rather than new engine for a European car and that I should remind the suppliers that the engine is a Euro model rather than an engine rebuilt for the American market just incase there is a different part number.  John didn't know off hand what the differences were but suggested that the cam and pistons and related items were probably different for sure.   

Does anyone know what else I should watch for under the hood being a Euro car with a Euro replacement engine. 

Ian in North Vancouver 

Ian
69 280SL
65 F-100
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC
83 VF 1100C
94 FLHTCU
08 NPS50
12 Pro 4X

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7219
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 04:36:03 »
One of the main reasons for engine replacement under MB warranty was due to heavy oil consumption. This was a  MB design problem and it was faster and easier to replace the short block than it was to correct the problem at the dealerships.

Connecting rods in early 280SL engines had a small hole drilled through the big end of the rod on the thrust side of the engine. A smaller hole in the rod bearing that lined up with this larger hole provided for extra oil to be sprayed on to the cylinder wall. Later engines had holes drilled on both sides of the connecting rod to provide for extra oil on both sides of the cylinders, and this is where the problem became so bad that the company replaced some of these engines under warranty. All of the late 280 engines were built without extra oil holes to correct this problem.

 During rebuilding I use bearing shells that have no additional oil holes. The rod bearings currently available do have one small hole in the center of the cap which is used only for oiling the piston pin on early 230SL engines.

The problem arose when the company realised that all of this extra oil from these oil holes was causing the engine to drink oil. They did away with any extra oiling holes and oil consumption dropped to normal levels. Spare short blocks with the revised connecting rods were provided under warranty and the old blocks were reconditioned with the new style rods if the block was still within factory tollerances. Worn blocks wwere probably scrapped. If you ever have a factory replacement block apart, look to see if it has the conecting rods without any oil holes or if the holes are covered by the rod bearings.

 For MB, changing the short block made more sense than rebuilding it due to down time and the fact that the whole bottom end had to come apart. The same effect could be had from simply changing the rod bearings but I imagine they didn't do that as a matter of principal.
 
 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

49er

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, El Dorado Hills
  • Posts: 1426
Re: Replacement engine - Origins
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 15:58:41 »
Thank you Benz Dr. for educating me! As I recall, I was told by the service manager only that there was a "manufacturing defect" when my block was replaced all those years ago and I was never really sure what that "defect" was and assumed it had something to do with the piston rings. Now I know. The car sure did "drink oil" and the new engine cured that problem.

Thanks again

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010