Author Topic: Aftermarket headlights  (Read 17704 times)

harleydan

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Aftermarket headlights
« on: July 19, 2011, 18:39:45 »
Will these aftermarket lights fit in my European headlights on my 280SL?  These lights are at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/140579935521?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fmotors.shop.ebay.com%3A80%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp4712.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D140579935521%26_sacat%3D%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

Unfortunately the silvering/mirror-finished on my European headlights have deteriorated and these aftermarket light seem to be an inexpensive fix.  And has anyone tried successfully with the installation of these lights in their car?

Thanks,
Danny
1970 Euro 280SL silver 4-speed
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 13:19:35 by harleydan »

mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2011, 23:21:21 »
Dan,

These look like H4 Conversion lamps that replace USA style sealed beams; I don't think they are for your Euro set up.

Many people desire the Euro versions, and it might be worthwhile investigating having the reflectors resilvered or similar.

http://www.realsteel.com/headlight.php

or  UVIRA at (541) 474-5050

Poke around and I'm sure you can get yours back to new...
Michael Salemi
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1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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Shvegel

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 12:57:17 »
Almost certain that the coating on the reflectors is not silver. Silver would tarnish very rapidly. As an interesting sidebar the US laws that required sealed beam headlight for so many years was brought about because people were not polishing or maintaining their silver reflectors properly leaving them with dim headlights.

More than likely the reflectors are plated using some kind of vacuum deposition plating. I think I would look and see if you can buy the reflectors separately.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2011, 19:40:42 »
GE lobbied the DOT so that they had all the market. Safety, if it ever was a consideration, was an after thought.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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1981  300SD
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xcashewx

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 00:46:03 »
well if your budget is tight, the shiny side of aluminum foil wrapped tighty does a nice temporary job

mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 14:18:05 »
GE lobbied the DOT so that they had all the market. Safety, if it ever was a consideration, was an after thought.

If that is true, it does not explain why Sylvania, Wagner and a host of others made a big market in sealed beams.

XcashewX: of course, that's a quick and easy fix...like clear red tape to "rebuild" a broken tail lamp.

Shvegel: "resilvering" is just a moniker.  The links I posted were for companies that specialize in restoring replectors.  I agree they probably don't use silver.

I post some of these links I find because our group here looks upon some of this stuff as challenging and difficult.  Well, the true restoration business of very old cars--true Classics--always includes a lot of interesting things such as this.  So, it may be something the majority of us don't know much about, but it is just another task for a place like RM...and I can assure you they don't use foil... ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 17:19:44 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

Benz Dr.

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 18:17:49 »
No explanation needed. The US was considered a huge market so they produced to fill that market. GE lobbied the government to keep out Euro style head lights and they got what they asked for. New US made cars came with sealed beam head lights made in the USA and it kept a lot of Americans working. It didn't matter if they were vastly inferior to halogen lighting systems that was the law. Eventually they went to halogen style sealed beams which are somewhat better but not that great either.

During the 50's and 60's US cars were pretty much built with parts made in the US. As time went by car parts are made all over the world to the point that only the assembly can be called built in the USA.

Not sure what these higher end cars are using now that produce a sort of blue/white light but they're very annoying.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2011, 14:06:14 »
This assessment is probably nonsense conspiracy theory.

First of all, the development of sealed-beam headlamps came out of several needs, the first of which was the horrendous and awful condition of the myriad lighting systems available in the 1930's, some of which included acetylene gas.  I show a link to a paper on the subject and history below.  The drive and push came from Chrysler.  One of the big problems was non-standard illumination, and the tarnishing of reflectors.

At that time, US cars were 100% US made of 100% US parts; whether a European style headlamp would have been permitted or not is not relevant.  It would have been made in the USA (or Canada) by an American manufacturer using American workers.  That was the state of the industry at that time.

You should note that despite the morphing of this thread, the original question that arose had to do with the tarnishing of a European style reflector!  I may not have the "prettiest" lights in the world on my US spec SL, but my sealed beam US lamps will not tarnish.  When they fail in some way--I throw them out, go into Pep Boys, and for $10 get a new llight.  If I want to be ADHD about it, I'll throw both out and replace in a pair.  Harley Dan has deteriorated reflectors on a Euro light and any fix he employs will be expensive.

There was a vast difference in the need for lighting in Europe vs. the USA and that led to different systems.  Read the paper for fun.

There is a lot of bad press and bad thought about US regulations; almost as if we are the only country with them and they are all wrong.  Well, of course it isn't always true.  Most of the safety issues of the era our Pagoda cars came from have been adopted worldwide.  Airbags, active restraints, passive restraints, lighting--about the only places or cars that don't have these kinds of regulations are A-class or Micro class cars in developing countries.  Europe has its own set of regulations, too.  You can't, for example, put in many retrofit lighting kits in Europe because the only lighting allowed is that tested and approved as a complete system.  So if you put a Xenon lamp on a car that came with Halogen H4, you are violating ECE R48.  We (USA) are not the only place in the world with rules.

France (Belgium too?) once required yellow lighting for fog lamps.  Somebody thought that yellow penetrated fog better.  Nonsense.  They relied on false information--yet there was an entire industry making yellow lights for France.  Not all Europeans are correct all the time.

The blue lighting you refer to is HID lighting pioneered by BMW.   Yeah, kind of annoying.

By the time the 1960s rolled around, lighting had kind of stablilized and it was then that rumblings started that eventually changed the old 1940 era sealed beam rule.  Now when your headlamp(s) go out, instead of going into any auto parts store or gas station anywhere, and getting something that will work (a sealed beam), you will have to hope that you can find the specific lamp you need; your reflector isn't tarnished; your lens isn't all pitted or cloudy...and have cash ready.  Modern lamps cost more than old sealed beams!

Ahh, progress!  :D

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/49367/1/UMTRI-98-21.pdf    Headlamp history research paper from the Transportation Research Institute at the University of Michigan.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 14:33:33 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2011, 14:31:19 »
You seem to be more informed, more correct, and more enlightened about everything. OK you can be right about this too, if that makes you happy.......  ;)
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

scoot

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2011, 14:58:19 »
My take on this is as follows:

1.  I had Euro lights for a Facel Vega re-silvered and it was expensive, and I think it does involve silver.  I recently asked a chrome shop about what to do with bad fog light reflectors and he said they could be re-silvered elsewhere or he could nickel plate them.  It would have been expensive and not cost effective in the case of the fog lights.  In the case of headlights, it remains as an option.

2.  I had always believed that sealed beam headlights were required in the US as the result of US manufacturer lobbying and nothing else.

3.  There is no longer a sealed beam requirement.  Instead lights need DOT approval.

4.  You can buy H4 replacements for 7" and 5 1/2" US sealed beam headlights and they work GREAT.  Most are not DOT approved but I have two side-by-side, one is DOT and the other isn't, and they look like the same product to me.  Probably aren't, but whatever

5.  I put modern 7" Hella H4 headlights (intended for replacement of sealed beam) in my Pagoda and I think they look just fine and they light up the road better.  Probably better than 1967 Euro headlights....

6.  US rules on lights, bumpers etc is a mixed bag of tricks.  Some of the rules are good.  Some are stupid.

Scott
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2011, 15:37:19 »
Scott,
In all likely hood it was not one but several lobby's going on at the same time and at diffrent times during the introduction of various requirements by the DOT. Head lights would be one of them.
I think the reflectors are mirrored and not done in silver or chrome. I doubt it's nickel as that finish is rather dull with yellow under tones. New cars use the same basic set up so it would be a simple matter of asking someone who works in this field. It could be a type of chrome plating but it would be different that what you would use on a bumper.
This finish on new head lights is likely done on plastic. I pay little attention to new cars, very few of them interest me. The Audi A8.......? Well, that's a car! 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

stickandrudderman

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2011, 21:24:32 »
There is a modern process whereby you can "chrome plate" your old reflectors relatively cheaply, but that's if you don't count your own labour in prepping the parts first.
You will have noticed that it's not uncommon nowadays to find plastic parts with a "chrome" finish; I can't recall the exact term for the process but it's some kind of vacuum flashing.
I had some reflectors done and the results were very good BUT you must spend a lot of time preparing the surface as even the tinyest imperfection will show up.
I've also retro-fitted HIDs to various customer's cars and all have been happy with the result. There may be a question of legality but disclaimers are signed and subsequent MOTs have been passed without comment.

mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2011, 21:31:17 »
Stick, the modern method is vacuum deposition of aluminum.  It is kind of hard to find anyone doing that on a custom or one-off basis, though.

Some years ago I found a Canadian firm that developed a process of a paint on solution that looks exactly like vapor deposition; I made several posts about it.  They only license the process so you have to find someone to do it for you.  Believe it or not, the place I found was doing it on kid's LEGO building blocks, making them bright silver and gold.

The process is called "Cosmichrome" http://www.cosmichrome.com and while I do not know of anyone who has used it for such, I'm sure it has some automotive applications.  Their US supplier is Gold Touch.  http://www.goldtouchinc.com
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 21:33:05 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 21:39:45 »
You seem to be more informed, more correct, and more enlightened about everything. OK you can be right about this too, if that makes you happy.......  ;)

Read the paper, Dan.  Read the history.  I didn't write it.

Perhaps there might be no question that the rules were created by lobbying--they generally are.  But the history indicates that sealed beams were a vast improvement in 1940, over what they replaced.  I will be the first to concur that the rules lasted a bit too long--because technology certainly caught up with things by the mid 1960s.

But the suggestion that some greedy American company (GE) created an inferior product (sealed beams) and lobbied simply to make all of America use their expensive, high profit, low performing and low quality products is bordering on the preposterous.  At the time, it was the best thing out there.  That's why I cited the historical paper for your information.  You made a bold statement.  I provided a research paper from the TRI.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
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IXLR8

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 22:57:21 »
Can't we all just get along?



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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2011, 07:24:52 »
Quote
vacuum deposition of aluminum

That's the stuff! I found a company local to me who apply the finish mainly tp plastic plumbing pipe and then found a man on the inside who would get the small one-off jobs in for me.

The results were pretty good but next time I'll put more effort into the prep and should get perfect results.

mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2011, 12:35:46 »
That's the stuff! I found a company local to me who apply the finish mainly tp plastic plumbing pipe and then found a man on the inside who would get the small one-off jobs in for me.

The results were pretty good but next time I'll put more effort into the prep and should get perfect results.

Stick, that's great!  It isn't a typical process used for "custom" work.  The parts on my car that have this--the reflectors in the rear tail lamps, and maybe something in the front lamp assembly under the sealed beams--are all available new and probably less costly than seeking out custom vacuum deposition!

Perhaps you can share with us who these firms are that you found...?

I've been intriqued with that Cosmichrome process and have been waiting to use it on something...
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 14:39:21 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
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scoot

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2011, 14:39:35 »
the suggestion that some greedy American company (GE) created an inferior product (sealed beams) . 
My assumption is that sealed beam headlights were better than what they replaced.   And that they remained a requirement due to political pressure rather than continued status of being better than other options...

Now that high quality H4 replacements are available for sealed beam units, does that mean that the price of US-style headlights for OLD cars with bad euro reflectors will go up the way the price of Euro units is high in the United States?    Seems like a 108 or 114 with crappy euro reflectors might consider the US style lights w/ H4 lamps to be sort of a strange upgrade...
Scott Allen
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mdsalemi

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2011, 15:13:07 »
Scoot,

The H4 conversion for sealed beams have been available for decades--I'm sure you know that.  I remember buying them for our 1966 Cooper S and 1971 MG back in the early 1970's.  Cibie, Marchal and others were making them, but the kit was always more expensive than sealed beams and I don't know if halogen sealed beams were commonly available then.  Those H4's were and are infinitely superior to common sealed beams (from a lighting point of view).  But you have the same problem with them as you do with other Euro assemblies: if you don't maintain them (seals, etc.) the reflectors will go bad, and then you have to replace them.  That's expensive.

Even my Sylvania/Philips Halogen sealed beams on my Pagoda look kind of yellow compared to an H4.  I don't use them that often so it isn't as if the filament has worn out.  There is probably some new sealed beams out there, my lamps are 10 years old.

Many Americans, certainly at the time, had a habit of poor automotive maintenance.  They didn't change oil regularly, left a lot of maintenance items alone until broken.  That's one reason the automatic transmission-in-the-sump failed on so many Austin 1200's that shared engine oil; and one reason why we find so many jerry rigged repairs--to avoid the cost of expensive parts.

If you have a Benz with Euro lights, and the reflectors are bad, any fix is going to be expensive.  The USA "headlight doors" as they call them are like $350 each last I heard, then you need the new backings and adjusters.  Converting lighting in either direction is expensive.  Let's put it into perspective though: a small, cheap OEM headlamp assembly for a bottom of the line Chevy Aveo lists for just under $300!

Of course, there are always junkyards--and that may be your next business endeavor--cornering the market on lighting conversions!!!  ;)  Time for another road trip up the coast??
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 15:16:02 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

jacovdw

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 13:48:19 »
...If you have a Benz with Euro lights, and the reflectors are bad, any fix is going to be expensive...

I suppose that depends on the route you want to take and the resources available in your area/country. New reflectors from Mercedes is going to cost and arm and a leg.

Had the headlight and foglight reflectors of my pagoda recoated last year at a company here in Cape Town for the equivalent of US$ 100 (inclusive of preparation) assuming a nominal exchange rate of 1 US$ = 7 ZAR. They also replace the rubber bushings for the reflectors.

The company is called Met-Glo and specializes in all sorts of metal coatings including headlight reflectors. They do not have any qualms taking on individual jobs either.
Typical turn around time is about 3 days.

The finish is smooth chrome-like and I am quite happy with the results so far. The only other expense incurred were for the OEM seals for the headlight assemblies.

gimp

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2011, 14:24:39 »
I had one euro headlight go rusty on me.
All I did was sand it down smooth, then pain it with chrome paint.
It has been a year now and what can be seen trough the glass still looks good.

scoot

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2011, 15:08:05 »
Scoot,

The H4 conversion for sealed beams have been available for decades--I'm sure you know that.

Of course, there are always junkyards--and that may be your next business endeavor--cornering the market on lighting conversions!!!  ;) 
Acutally I was not aware of them being available for decades.  It is only recently that I have seen them advertised, and only recently that I have occasionally seen them in junkyards.  I got a set of two near-new Hella 7" headlights off of a BMW 2002 and those are now on the Pagoda.  I have maybe two sets of 4 of the 5 1/2" lights - those came from two separate W116 sedans... 

As far as maintaining these go - the lens doesn't separate from the reflector.  You can take out the bulb and possibly do a little cleaning of the lens through that hole, but very limited.  There is a rubber boot that goes over the back, and that will provide some moisture protection, but they really aren't designed for maintenance.  And they have not had reflector problems on any of them (unlike 107/116 rectangular fog lights for instance...)
Scott Allen
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Altadena, California

philmas

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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 16:08:30 »
As listed on the SLS website, the main reflector for a euro headlight  costs 133€ plus shipping.
Not shure re-chroming is of any interest.
One of my reflectors was badly pitted. I just replaced it, but didn't care about the fog light.
Philippe from Paris
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Re: Aftermarket headlights
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2011, 03:19:48 »
Read the paper, Dan.  Read the history.  I didn't write it.

Perhaps there might be no question that the rules were created by lobbying--they generally are.  But the history indicates that sealed beams were a vast improvement in 1940, over what they replaced.  I will be the first to concur that the rules lasted a bit too long--because technology certainly caught up with things by the mid 1960s.

But the suggestion that some greedy American company (GE) created an inferior product (sealed beams) and lobbied simply to make all of America use their expensive, high profit, low performing and low quality products is bordering on the preposterous.  At the time, it was the best thing out there.  That's why I cited the historical paper for your information.  You made a bold statement.  I provided a research paper from the TRI.



Yeah well......... it's not like we've never seen American greed before. ::)
 It was a commonly held belief back in the day that GE lobbied the DOT to keep out non sealed beam head lights - so what? It's not a big deal to me, I couldn't care less. I didn't say they were inferoir ( they are, but I didn't say that ) or that I thought GE was greedy or that their product was crap; you said that, not me.
The overall result was a lot of junk got made during the 70's and that sort of (i.e. GE ) lobbying led the way.
 
The US has caught up with the rest of the world and builds some very decent cars today 8) but the days where you could make any kind of junk you wanted and a dummed down public would gladly buy it is over. Don't worry Mike, in fairness, the same junk was made here too. :( And we generally had to follow US regulations even if they made no sense. At least we didn't buy the '' halogen lights are dangerous '' ( or whatever reason they used ) BS over here. Not that our dummed down public knew the difference either - they bought the same crap here too. :-\

Conversions to halogen have been around for years. I had a pair in one of my cars in the late 70's. At the time they were illegal to use in Michigan and probably every other State so I never used my high beams while driving there. ;)

 I remember driving down south a few years ago and getting pulled over for driving with my headlights on during the day. ??? I told the officer that they weren't head lights and that they were day time running lights and that all new Canadian cars came equiped with them as standard fair. He insisted that I turn them off. :-\ I said I couldn't because they came on when the ignition was turned on. :( He fiddled with my head light switch which turned on the regular head lights then turned them off.
I said, '' OK, watch this. '' I shut the engine off and the lights went out. Then I started it again and they came back on. ;D By this time another patrol car drove up...... I think they thought I was messing with them. :o So I offered to step back while they figured out the malfunctioning head lights. Niether of them had ever seen such a wonderous thing. I suppose but they eventually came to the conclusion that short of cutting some wiring in the car they weren't going out with the engine running.  :)They made me drive to a store, buy some duct tape, and cover my head lights until it was dark or I'd get a ticket. :'( Very decent of them actually...... 8)

 


Regular conversions from sealed beams do have the rubber boot on the back of the reflector next to the bulb holder. They generally came with a small amount of grease on the seal to prevent moisture from gettng in. Since these lighting systems aren't that exspensive it's within reason to simply replace them if they go bad. In the high humidity that we have in my area moisture gets into everything eventually.

As far as 113 Euro headlights are concerned? They're priced well beyond what's reasonable or acceptable. The price used to be exspensive, now it's just anal. :'(
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC