Soft top gap above windows

[Cees Klumper]

Tip - the soft top oftentimes does not meet the top of the softtop frame (the chrome split bar), right above the driver and passenger door windows. This results in a crack, through which plenty of wind and road noise come in to accompany you on your trip. This crack is not even, but at its widest can measure up to an inch / 2,5 cm. What I did to close it, is stick strips of thick black insulating foam, cut to size and self-adhesive. The stuff you can buy at an auto parts store to (sound-) insulate the inside of your hood for example. Because the material is black, from the inside you don't notice them. From the outside, they are not visible either. It has to be quite "spongy" foam - this will effectively close the gap and can thus cut down on the amount of noise considerably.

Of course, this tip was before the rest of this thread got going and as it turns out there is a metal wire that can be tightened which should accomplish the same objective, but as the factory intended.

Cees

white 1969 280 SL

[n/a]

Cees,
MB has a part for this particular application. I beleive it is called anti-squeak (abdaempfung), PN 113 778 00 97. It is contoured to match the curvature of the soft top and the end is dimensioned to fit into a pocket on the soft top. If I recall correctly they are approximately US $14 per side.

Regards,
Stan

[SL113fan]

Having recently acquired my 113, I've also observed this soft top gap and significant wind noise with the top up.  I found these two older postings when conducting an archives search on the issue.

Are the 113 tops supposed to have this gap above the side windows and below the top frame?  I have the OEM weather-strips installed, but these attach only to the soft top fabric with glue.  I surmise that gluing their other sides to the frame would prevent the top from folding properly.

Has anyone identified other solutions to quell this source of wind noise?

Thx.

[Cees Klumper]

I forgot about this post completely. And I missed Stan's reply to it somehow, back in March last year. But what I was referring to is the gap that in many instances still exists, despite the two "abdaempfungen" that are also on my top. Or maybe mine are not as spungy as they used to and should be, I will try to compare with new ones when I am at Van Dijk's next time.

Anyway, the solution that I described is very effective, easy and inconspicuous, so, if nothing else, this can be at least a temporary cure.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[mbzse]

quote:Originally posted by SL113fan

Are the 113 soft tops supposed to have this gap above the side windows and below the top frame?

Answer: No

quote:I have the OEM weather-strips installed, but these attach only to the soft top fabric with glue..../...
Has anyone identified other solutions to quell this source of wind noise?

The foam strips glued to the soft top fabric _are_ the solution. However, another key element of this Sindelfingen design are the two steel wires (one each side) that put tension onto the seals and make them absolutely wind and water tight. You can make these wires or buy them from M-B, No is A1137700066

/Hans in Stockholm

[Cees Klumper]

Thanks Hans - I will check out these two steel wires and their tension. Maybe that will eliminate the need for the extra padding I added.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[SL113fan]

I just examined the cable rods last night.  Indeed, their tension can be adjusted after loosening each one's clamping nut located on the rear side of the pseudo B-pillar. This should reduce or eliminate any air gap between the top and side windows.  Too bad I just prepped the car for winter storage, as now I'm anxious to experience the reduced noise level.

Thanks for the insight.

[mdsalemi]

Gents,

This thread sounds fascinating, really.  When I got my basket case car in 1999, I was astounded that the seals with the soft top were so tight that my ears "popped" when I closed the door when I was in it!  With the new top, there is "gawdawful" wind noise which makes the car somewhat unpleasurable to drive with the top up!  This means of course that it has as many air leaks as a sieve.

Therefore, with all due respect to Chris Kraft of NASA, and the Apollo 13 movie, (those who saw will understand...)

"Gentlemen, we need the PROCEDURE!"

If anybody can document the procedure to adjust the top and these tension bars, I for one will be very happy!  I'd like to avoid adding weatherstripping unless that's the last and only resort.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

Thanks, Hans!
I am embarrassed to admit that I was not aware of the tensioning wires. I still have this gap, even with the proper rubber seals. I can't wait to get home tonight and see if I can adjsut these cable, (or see if they are still there).
Does this cable run through a "tunnel" in the fabric off the soft top?


Regards,
Stan

[SL113fan]

The CD-Rom did not reference a procedure so I just winged it.  After loosening the tensioning nut with a 10mm socket, I pulled the cable until the top was virtually flat against the frame cross-member.  A pair of pliers--wrapped around the cable end slack--helped this process.  Electrical tape was used to prevent the top frame from getting nicked by the pliers.

After retightening the tensioning nut I tucked the excess cable slack into the hole provided in the top frame--love this attention to detail.  Although my soft-top gap is greatly improved it is not completely eliminated.  Some of my weather stripping should be repositioned closer to the top's edge for a perfect seal.  As such, I recommend tensioning the cable before gluing the top weather stripping in place.  Also verify that your windows are slipping completely into the door seal recess once closed.

Have fun.

[Ben]

I think you can pull on the cable then mark it before undoing the front catches a bit and pulling the cable another 2mm or so. Then re-attach the front catches.

This should bring it down very tightly !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Mark in KS]

This is an old topic revived.  Now that's it's getting colder and I need to pull the soft top out when it gets cooler on the ride home, I noticed that the cable wire referenced in this topic was "snaked" and slack looking under the soft top material.  I went to the back adjustment nut and tugged on the cable a little only to find that it has become detached from its foward position!!

How does one reattach the cable once it's come loose from the front connection?  Do I have to remove the top leading edge completely?  What are those screws on each corner of the front edge?

My top was replaced once and appears to be in good shape, but now what do I do to get the cable back doing its job?!  I just made myself a project for this week!  Any guidance will be helpful.

1967 230SL

[waltklatt]

Wow, I just finished the installation of my new German canvas top on my 1967 230SL and it's not that hard a job to do.  
The shop where you had your top installed didn't know what to do with the eyehooks at the end of the steel braided cable.  
The only solution you have is to loosen the captive nut and remove the cable from it and pull it out completely.  Then remove the chrome screw you see at the far leading edge at the front of the frame and then snake a very straight coathanger wire(with the end bent double to prevent snagging and poking through your top).  And snake it through till you see it at the other small slit i nthe fabric where the braided wire came out.  Then attach a piece of fishing string to the end of coathanger wire and attach the eyehook to the end of the fishing string.  Pull the coat hanger wire back out t he front again and careful not to snag the exit hole canvas on the hook end.  Then gently pull the eyehook wire though till you see the first hint of it through the exit hole in front.  Snip the line there and then pull the hook forward a bit so the screw will catch it and then screw it back in.  Then pull the rear wire tight with some pilers and then re-tighten the nut(10mm).  Do the same on the other side.
Hope this helps.
Walter Klatt
1967 230SL-diesel
1963 230SL-gas

PS: the entire top installation took me 6 hours to do, including the cleaning of all the parts.

[A Dalton]

<<PS: the entire top installation took me 6 hours to do, including the cleaning of all the parts.>>

 That is good time ...no snags ??

[Mark in KS]

Thanks guys for the replies.  A little extra info and confirmation that I understand what your answers mean:

1.  The wire I pulled out doesn't have the eyelet on it.  So it must still be in the top or it's broken off somewhere.
2.  The screws on the outside corners of the soft top are the screws that hold the eyelet end of the wires, right?
3.  There's no easy way to reinstall the wire unless you "fish" it through as described.

A little confirmation is all I need now to proceed.  At the very least, I'll have to get a new wire from the OEM guys.

[waltklatt]

Well, I did hit three snags, all to do with broken or sheared off screws and one bolt.  The screws were easily drilled out and reused with slightly larger screws.  But the bolt was the passenger side eyelet bolt that holds the braided cable for the part above the window.  It sheared off with a bit of brute strength and fortunately there was enough of the thread to allow me to use a thinner washer and a new nut.  That bolt is welded to the frame, with the head ground off flush and then chrome plated.  Whew a big job, but it was averted with the bit of luck.
But all in all it took me about 6 hours from start to finish.  The start was the empty bare frame with a bit of the original canvas still stuck behind the trims and so on.  
Walter.  
PS: now the top is very tight and snug as a glove, but the area where it meets the bottom of the door glass and the pivots is very large and rubs considerably against the new rubber weatherstripping.  Which way should one fold the canvas fold when putting the top down?  Should one push the folds down into the well or should they be folded upwards?  Right now they are folded upwards and it closes perfectly.

[tdun824259]

I'm reviving an old post and hope that someone who has accomplished this task will lend me a hand.  Apparently Mark in KS is one of those so please chime in.  I was cleaning my soft top and attempted to tighten the tensioning wires that hold the soft top down to the windows.  One of wires had come loose from it's "front attachment point".  Can anyone tell me where that front attachment point is at and how to access that attachment point in order to re-attach the braided wire.
Thanks.
Tim Dunagan
1971 280 SL

[bpossel]

Hi Tim,

The front of the wire attaches to the small screw that should be visable on the front part of the soft top.  The rear of the wire attaches to a larger bolt and nut that is on the vertical side frame rail.  I believe that the front wire has an eye hook that is used with the screw to secure it from the front.

See pic from Hauser's soft top resto.



bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[66andBlue]

Tim,
here is a close up of the attachment point and the eye hook that Bob has mentioned.
Download Attachment: SoftTopCable.jpg
57.45 KB

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[tdun824259]

Bob and Alfred,

Thanks for your help, pictures are so valuable.  I will take it apart tomorrow.  How does the cable connect to the eyelet?  Is it soldered or just a compression fitting or otherwise?  I've had the car out today running around with the soft top and there is so much wind noise I know that tightening that cable will help.  I think it may be time to replace the seals front and back as well.  There seems to be alot of wind noise both front and back as well.  Any other advice to help with the noise reduction would be valuable.
Thank again
Tim Dunagan
1971 280 SL

[66andBlue]

quote:.... How does the cable connect to the eyelet?  Is it soldered or just a compression fitting or otherwise? ...

Tim,
I believe it is a compression fitting - but could be both. Take a look at the picture, what do you think?
Download Attachment: CableHook.jpg
66.14 KB

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[tdun824259]

Alfred,

Hey great shot of exactly what I need.  I would guess maybe both soldered and compressed.  I think I will do alittle soldering to re-enforce the connection.  I don't want to tighten that sucker and have it pull loose again.
Appreciate all your help.

Tim Dunagan
1971 280 SL

[JPMOSE]

I just found this thread and learned a lot by reading it.  I thought it was worth bringing to the front of the line!

Best Regards,

J. P. Mose
1968 250SL
1987 560SL

[Cees Klumper]

quote:Originally posted by tdun824259

There seems to be alot of wind noise both front and back as well.  Any other advice to help with the noise reduction would be valuable.

One other item I will repeat here is that rubber seals that are between the leading edge of the side windows and the windshield frame. The side windows slide in them when you roll them up and down. I replaced my old ones early on when I first got my car and even though those old ones seemed in ok condition, the new ones cut out a tremendous amount of wind noise. Not expensive and they are very easy to insert into a kind of channel.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Else1969]

Hey thanks for reviving this topic Tim.
The gap above the window has been annoying and puzzling me for some time not. Everything worked well, except for shearing off one of the #@$$ing eyelet screws. I managed to get the threaded part out, but now have to find a new screw. The old one appears to be chromed brass. I'll have to see what I can get that fits. Hopefully the right size is available in stainless steel.

The only thing I need to fix in that area is the drivers side upper window frame. This kinks down in the middle where the joint is instead of being flat (like the passenger side). I can remember reading that there are some adjustment that can be made to the soft top frame, but after searching for over an hour I can't find that reference. Can someone help.

Also I found that shims had been used where the frame mechanism is mounted to the chassis. Is this normal?

Dirk
1969 Signal Red 280 SL

[jameshoward]

Dirk,

I replaced my softtop over Christmas. As part of the job I refurbished (sort of) my existing top. I have written an article for the Wiki on how to remove the old top and put the new one on. I just haven't sent it to the editor yet as it needs a bit of work and I've been busy.

All that aside, I also chased a kink in the roof join (elbow). I can tell you that it is possible to get it out, but it takes a lot of fiddling. First, the shims are there to allow the softtop to fit properly over the windows on the premise that the windows are adjusted to fit the hard top first (using the various ajsutments within the door on the window mechanism).

The means by which you can close the gap in the 'elbow' is by manipulating the shims. For example, I have found that by placing a large washer (up to 2-3mm thick) under the forward or rear bolt of the roof mechanism, the geometery of the roof is altered and the elbow closed. I have an uneven number of shims under my roof mechanism (I think 3 on the left and 5 on the right together with a large washer on the right to close the gap in the elbow).

A futher factor in attempting to close the gap is the positioning of the roof mechanism in the softtop box: i.e. it can be foward, or to the rear of the car. It also moves from side to side. The forward adjustment also alters the gap.

Finally, it is possible to increase or decrease the tension on the roof by altering the position of the rear bow (loosen the two bolts on each side). Changing the tension changes the position of the roof.

I have spent 2 days faffing around with the roof. I need to spend more time doing it as I am unable to close my roof without first partically hitching the front on then pressing really hard on the back, then latching the front properly. (Any ideas???)

I have, however, closed the gap in the elbow. I have a hardtop and have followed the advice on the forum about adjusting the windows to that. However, since I never use the hardtop, I am minded to set my windows to the softtop and dispense with the shims altogether. In turn, this would allow my new roof to sit very flush against the back of the car and eliminate all the gaps. Moreover, I find it hard to get the softtop box cover closed with the roof in it and I think that by ditching the shims that job would me much easier.

I hope this helps, but I would also be grateful for the views of anyone else.

JH

(And if anyone else suggests going to Gernold at SL Tech, then good luck. I've emailed and called and received no replies whatsoever. So a lot of bloody use they are).

[J. Huber]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

...
I have spent 2 days faffing around with the roof. I need to spend more time doing it as I am unable to close my roof without first partically hitching the front on then pressing really hard on the back, then latching the front properly. (Any ideas???)

James, remind me what model you have ... only because, with the 230SL you need to latch the back first, then secure the front. The later cars, I believe, do front then back.

James
63 230SL

[jameshoward]

James,

I have a '66 230. I acknowledge your direction on how to close the top, but since I have fitted my new top, and regardless of which way I approach the problem, I can only latch it the way I have described.

It's a long way from being far from perfect and it annoys the hell out of me. It closed easier with the old (and utterly shot) softtop. I think I can get it to close more easily if I remove the shims but then the windows won't fit the hardtop. It's like a suduko puzzle that is no fun to do (no surprises there) but which no one ever publishes the solution to. I just keep moving from one problem to another. i.e. I manage to close the gap at the join over the window, but then the roof is a bugger to close and takes two people. Maybe I need to stretch the canvas.

James

[psmith]

Hi James, the soft tops do have to stretch if they've been folded up for a while.  There's an article in the Star Technical reprint on how to do it including building a frame!

Mine's  a little tight too so here's what I do:  Open the soft top cover and lift it up and out.  Extend the front part out flat and leaving the rear part up.  Hook the pegs in the holes on the windshield frame and wiggle the latch handles so the pegs catch, but don't crank them down. Now I check the release handle, because mine tends to stick open, keeping it from latching, then lower the rear part and push with two hands right over the latch area.  Once it's latched go back inside and crank down the latch handles in front.  Good Luck.

Pete S.

[Else1969]

James,

thanks for your advice. I spent the weekend playing around with the soft top mechanism with only limited success. By shimming up the back of the frame I managed to reduce the elbow by 5 mm (only 15 mm to go). But to do this I had to pack up the back und by 6 mm. If I kept on going like that then the mounting plate of the frame would be at 30 deg. to the horizontal. I must be missing something. In any case, I've decided to wait until I fit the hard top come winter so as to make sure the windows fit properly to start off with. It was too much like hard work doing the soft top in the weather we've been having lately (between 36 and 40 deg. C......and this is supposed to be our autumn). I will tackle my soft top problem again in a couple of months time.




Dirk
1969 Signal Red 280 SL

[RBYCC]

quote:Originally posted by Else1969

Hey thanks for reviving this topic Tim.
The gap above the window has been annoying and puzzling me for some time not. Everything worked well, except for shearing off one of the #@$$ing eyelet screws. I managed to get the threaded part out, but now have to find a new screw. The old one appears to be chromed brass. I'll have to see what I can get that fits. Hopefully the right size is available in stainless steel.

The only thing I need to fix in that area is the drivers side upper window frame. This kinks down in the middle where the joint is instead of being flat (like the passenger side). I can remember reading that there are some adjustment that can be made to the soft top frame, but after searching for over an hour I can't find that reference. Can someone help.

Also I found that shims had been used where the frame mechanism is mounted to the chassis. Is this normal?

Dirk
1969 Signal Red 280 SL

I had a similar problem with my passenger side gap and found that by bending the joint up it became flat and the gap was gone.
Possible that the frame may be slighlty bent as mine?

ED A.
1971 280SL
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO
1990 C43 AMG
2003 G55 AMG

[Longtooth]

Gee Pete, when mine's been folded down for a considerable period it is also tight as drum head on it's first use again.  But... I just latch it fully down in the front, then slam the back of the top down with one hand.... like slamming a car door with extreme vigor.  Of course this requires that the latch mechanism isn't stuck at all... freely moving with enough tension to enable it to latch without delay. I adjusted my rear latch mechanism long ago so it wouldn't stick in partially open position intermittantly.

I figure it's the canvas that's 'shrunk' so unless the canvas material's very old or embrittled (and mine's not), the fast stretch to it on slamming the rear down is only a tensile stress on the seams (threads sewing the seams together).

The lesson though is as usual, preventive maintenance.... which is to say put the soft-top up overnight (garaged or not) once every couple of weeks ... maybe stretch it (no pun intended) to 4 weeks occasionally.  

BTW, on folding it when putting down, I use a bath towel over the rear window so that when it's folded (inwards) the window plastic doesn't rub on itself.  I also use a shear piece of cotton the width of the softtop and "hang" it along the front panel of the storage area so that the inside of the window plastic doesn't rub over the edge or wear against the inside of the panel surface when it's stored in down position (under driving conditions there's always a very slight vibration in the body... leading to 'wear' by friction between inside of plastic window and the front inside panel of the storage area).  While the towel and shear cotton placements add a an extra minute to the time it takes to put the top down, it's a teensy price to pay to prevent the more costly (time and $$ both) alternative to have the window plastic replaced.... or suffer the cloudy-like friction abraided surface.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport