Off topic: Could I please have a $5bn

[JamesL]

bailout? I too am a troubled carmaker with a very expensive labourforce building outdated inefficient vehicles

I promise not to collect by private jet. Used notes will do just fine.

[waqas]

You will first have to fire your chief executive, and she's not going to respond very well to that... 

Besides, the vehicle in question currently looks too fuel-efficient (sitting on the deck and wotnot) to qualify!

[Dash808]

You'll have a better chance if you start a bank and apply for one.  I hear the application process is only about 9 pages and I think you'll have a pretty good shot.  Let us know how much $ you get so we can share 

[Cees Klumper]

Dear Mr Lester - you will be pleased to learn that your application has been approved. Kindly remit US$ 20,000 in a cashier's check so we can clear the administrative hurdles and send you the couple billion you need and so rightly deserve. Make sure to send it to our non-registered postal box in the Seychelles islands, and the money will come your way real soon!

[abe280SL]

If it makes you any better GM (aka Gorvenment Motors) is coming out with a new fuel efficient ObamaGreenCorvette edition....

abe

[JamesL]

Mercedes already did that.

[mespe]

Before you get a bailout, you MUST defraud someone,,, Here's William K Black on Bill Moyers PBS

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html

[abe280SL]

Moyer is a fraud..that is only half of the story.  The government with Frank,Dodd,and others including current president wanted low income people to afford housing..good intentions.  The Fed Reserve before lending money to banks would look as to how money low income minories received loans...if too few they would question if there was any racism involved and threaten not to lend to those banks unless more low income minorities receive loans.  So between previous administrations not requiring loan insurance and the Fed Reserve threatening not to lend to the banks...they came up with the current loan criterias of non verifiable stated incomes.  Then the greed set in....hmmm if we can lend to a low income minority family who makes 40k a year a 400k loan, we can give a family who makes 140k  a 1.4 million $ loan.  Congress blames the greedy bankers...but they are as culpable as any one else.  Who approved the AIG bonuses...an FYI Fannie/Freddie bonuses(should be the next hot topic )....CONGRESS.  And they are the ones who are going to run these banks, GM, Chrysler, healthcare....

[69280sl]

Moderator:
Should there be a new, separate board "Politics and Economics"?

[Andres G]

Not sure about a new board being needed... after all, considering the luck of the Land Rover brand, I'd say this is far beyond a political comment... this is a great joke!

Regards, Andres G

PS: Tosh, I love Land Rovers. I promise to give you half of what you need to get going if you promise a fix to leaking fluids other than emptying all of them 

[Peter van Es]

Perhaps there should be a board called "Off Topic" for all rants, raves, politics, economics and everything else that has nothing to do with a Pagoda SL. Vote here now! You have 30 days to vote, and the results will be shown after that!

Peter

[Peter van Es]

We only have 10 votes so far... what's your opinion... should we have an Off Topic forum or not? Vote now in the poll!

Peter

[Mike Hughes]

Have an "off-topic" forum if we must, but lets try to keep it civilized and try to confine it to non-Mercedes/Pagoda items of general automotive enthusiast interest!  Unlike wry humor, rants, raves, and flames do not really have much of a place in a collegial community such as ours.

[waqas]

We only have 10 votes so far... what's your opinion... should we have an Off Topic forum or not? Vote now in the poll!

Peter

Peter, I think your poll is completely off topic to the topic at hand, which is off-topics. I think we should get back on topic... or off topic as the case may be.

[Bob G]

Not intrested in adding this off topic to our most important issues at  hand. I can read the off topics and potical  views in the news paper.

Bob Geco
My 2 cents and  a cup of coffee!

[egggplant]

Moyer is a fraud..that is only half of the story.

Moyers (note correct spelling) is a self professed liberal.  That doesn't make him more of a fraud than countless conservative commentators and the entire Fox network.

[scoot]

Could we PLEEEEZE have an off-topic forum....?   Anyone who doesn't understand the need for this try subscribing to the okiebenz mailing list.  I'm so tired of reading about people's front-loading washing machines, etc.

[Peter van Es]

Well, keep voting... voting closes may 6th... at the moment we only have 27 votes or so and it's not a sure thing yet! I'll implement what the majority wants!

Peter

[waqas]

I think there are two camps regarding the creation of an "off-topic" section in the forums:

• Those who think that creating a separate "off-topic" section will isolate the off-topic rants in that section and keep the rest of the forums generally clear of rants.
• Those who think not creating a separate "off-topic" section will keep the flood-gates shut, whilst maintaining the precarious restraint that keeps the rest of the forums generally clear of rants.

I think we all agree that we we should keep the forums generally clear of rants, regardless of whether there is a dedicated "off-topic" section.

Now I've forgotten which way I voted... 

[psmith]

Well said Wagas.  Although it's fun to air it out a little sometimes, I think many would agree that rants and strong opinions about politics, religion, and now the economy can really kill the enthusiasm for a great site such as this.  Weather there is an "off Topic" section or not, I would not be upset to have a moderator step in and say that the topic has run it's course let's get back to the cars.

[Peter van Es]

Well, I'm in favour of an Off-Topic forum. First of all, moderators can move Off-Topic contributions there. Secondly, many people frequent these forums so regularly and have contacts with so many members that they feel the need to occasionally have an Off-Topic discussion... on other cars, on holiday destinations etc.

Blatant political or religious discussions will be removed. From anywhere. That's not what we're here about. But you know, an innocuous remark about the car industry in the US may spark off an entire discussion about economics and veer off into politics. And yes, the moderators do intervene (although many of you do not see that... we do our work behind the scenes and invisibly). But to many of us, the views are of interest... and to some of us, not relevant. By creating an altogether new Off-Topic section you can choose to ignore those messages more easily than if they are part of the General Discussion.

Peter

[Witt]

............here we go again, I thought we discussed this to death and the topic is locked !?
Let's keep this site strictly for Pagoda related stuff, there must be other ways to express ones opinion on other subjects.   

CHEERS !
WITT !

[waqas]

As much as I think we all rely on and trust the judgement of the moderators, an off-topic section has the potential to seriously change the tone of the club. Slippery slope and all that. It's a lot easier to limit off-topic posts if there is no pre-arranged section for it.

We already tolerate off-topic posts (like questions about 129 and 107 sl's, non-MB cars, etc), and members generally don't complain about these posts. It's the political rants that folks want to move to an "off-topic" section. If we won't tolerate political rants even in the new "off-topic" section, then why create the section at all?

I think a separate section is going to encourage off-topic rants, which is not exactly our goal, is it? Moderators are going to end up getting involved in situations that don't really come up very often right now. People will argue that "if I can't post my <crap>, then what's the point of the off-topic section?" and that "you're trampling my free-speech!" ....   do we really want to get into these arguments?

This is a car club, and we should not create a place for rants (however well-regulated we intend it to be) ... there are plenty other places on the internet for that sort of thing. If there is no off-topic section, then we will all generally self-moderate our posts.

Remember: slippery slope...

[Peter van Es]

Dear all,

I'd like to make two points. First of all, I think an off-topic section is useful because it may actually foster communications between members of this community that strengthens the community. A good example of off-topic threads that help do that is the interesting topic on member's professions. Tosh's off-topic jokes come to mind. There are more examples.

I think the worry of "slippery slopes" and abuse is over the top. Over the last year or so, I've perhaps had to delete 3 or 4 posts with advertising, viagra, or links to sexual sites. Since I changed the registration procedure with a better Captcha process, that has stopped altogether. In the last year or so there have been a couple of instances where the moderators, or I have edited a post, approached the poster and asked them to stop posting inflammatory or derogatory material. In one instance I banned a user. That's all.

Secondly, the reality of the situation is that regardless of what we call a section, anyone can post anything anywhere. If it is in conflict with the Registration Agreement everyone signs up to, it needs manual moderator action to remove it anyway. And the moderators are pretty much allowed to remove or alter whatever they like, free-speech or not. Having a separate off-topic section allows those that are not interested in that to ignore it.

I suppose that I am perhaps too trusting in the good nature of people. I prefer freedom and choice over limitation. So I'm in favour of an Off-Topic section... hey, perhaps we should have subsections (jokes, economics, other cars, etc) -- no, that was a joke 

Peter

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[Witt]

Peter, don't you have enough on your plate without having to babysit another " off topic site " ?
Remember what happened when I started a post by recommending  to read Brooke Yates book on the decline of the American Auto Industry.
Just go back there and you will learn two things:
You will remember the reason why you locked that discussion and two, is that not enough reason NOT to have a " off - topic " forum ? !

CHEERS !
WITT !   

[Peter van Es]

Witt,

perhaps I enjoy that sort of stuff (until it gets ugly, of(f) course)! Don't worry, after the board elections I'll enlist moderation help!

Peter

[J. Huber]

So, I voted way back when the poll was first created... Now, you guys go and present good arguments on both sides!

Without tipping my hand, I see "off-topic" and "rants" (poltical or otherwise) as two very different things. When I see a thread started with the words off-topic (or is that one word?), I generally click eagerly to see what one of my Pagoda-loving cohorts is up to. A new "other car?", another interesting website? an announcement of junior on the way? The person obviously wants to share something, and who better than his adopted Pagoda family to lend an ear?...

Then there is the "rant." It can start innocently enough but once it begins and takes a turn toward polemic -- what a downer. Like a few here have said -- we get enough of this in our daily lives, why contaminate the air here? Part of me hopes a moderator slams the lid (another small sick part likes watching when the gloves come off...) But in the end, this is not the place for it. Period.

In some ways, its like the proverbial "Sunday night family dinner." Everyone shows up for the home cooking, the entertainment, and to catch up on things. But one should try and keep the politics and religion to a minumum, lest Uncle Louie flies off the handle. Do we create a second "family dinner" so Louie can go off about things -- or do we just show a little discretion and keep the peace? (and have Peter throw Uncle Louie outside  )

[Benz Dr.]

 You guys are kidding, right?

 

[glenn]

The (pen)ultimate PPP--Perverse Pagoda Persiflage.

[Benz Dr.]

So, does anyone get to vote on this, or is it only members?

[mdsalemi]

Dan,

PPP=Perverse Pagod Persiflage.

Perverse=different or varying from the correct or normal. (not always a sexual meaning!)
Pagoda=our cars (of course)
Persiflage=a light, flippant style of talking or writing.

So, PPP would mean talking or writing about our cars in a non-standard way using a light and flippant style of writing.

So, being 100% clearly defined there, I have no idea what this really means.

[Peter van Es]

Confused? You won't be after next week' s episode of: "PPP"... just use the search box at the top right with "PPP" and then read all of the posts. You'll be completely illuminated!

Peter

(hint: it's Glennards fault  -- on the transition to the new system he screwed up and now has a new username of glenn... Pathetic Pagoda Profile, if you must know!) Additionally, he's almost always completely off-topic!

[waqas]

(hint: it's Glennards fault  -- on the transition to the new system he screwed up and now has a new username of glenn... Pathetic Pagoda Profile, if you must know!) Additionally, he's almost always completely off-topic!

Now now Peter, at the risk of becoming a PPP myself (Picky Pedantic Pagonefile), I thought you enjoyed off-topic posts? 

Glennard's acronym PUB (Pagoda University Blacklick) caught on very quickly... looks like PPP is not far behind.
Personally, I quite enjoy PPP (Prudent Pleasant Ploys) at interjecting levity when a given thread warrants it. 

[Benz Dr.]

Nice try guys ( with the humour bit and all ) but I'm not laughing here.....
 And I'm not going to say what I really think about how things are going either.