Author Topic: Wiring issues 101 (Read 33415 times)

J. Huber · « **on:** March 18, 2009, 17:02:29 »

So, in the midst of re-installing my dash instruments, I discovered two things (at least) that are not working now. The first is my flash to pass and the second is the blue high beam indicator on the center instrument. I took a look at the mess of wiries under the dash just now -- and guess what. Two wires that looks deep fried. That possibly explains the puff of smoke when I tired the flash to pass after the install... I then wisely pulled out the fantastic color wiring diagram from one of the Pagoda World issues...Sure enough. The two burnt (exposed) wires match exactly. Nummers 29b and 10h. Aha.

So now what? How does one next deal with the half-baked wires? They are not broken but the wire is exposed in places and the plastic kind of crunchy.

jeffc280sl · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2009, 17:43:11 »

What do you think caused the short? That needs to be identified and fixed. When repairing the wire I would try and identify a terminal that the crispy wire ends at. The other side of the terminal should be good wire. A terminal may also end up being the fuse block. Try and source a piece of wire the same color and gauge and splice it into place. If you have to make repairs on an open wire I would solder the connection to new wire and use shrink wrap to insulate the connection. All repairs need to be made with the battery disconnected.

J. Huber · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2009, 17:52:17 »

Hey Jeff. Thanks for chiming in... I can't really say what caused the short to happen. I was in the midst of getting the gauges back, fiddling here and there with the dash bulb wires and grounds, etc to reconnect everything. As you know, its kind of tight in there. My wiring confluence under the dash is quite a spaghetti feed -- don't know if others are like that. Anyway, is it possible one bare wire then fired the second wire? The fuses are not blowing -- and the flash to pass seems to work for a second then not at all. The blue hi-beam light is not on.

It all seems to be on the fuse side of the large pin connectors -- if that helps.

J. Huber · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2009, 18:25:30 »

As I look at the wires, its possible the wire for the flash is broken. Addressing this one first, if I can isolate the bad stretch of wire -- is it possible cut it out and then using butt connectors, splice a new section in of same size (& color if possible) wire?

I am trying to circumvent soldering for the moment. That will be the more permanent fix but I either have to farm it out or learn to do it. Now, a crimp I can do!

Peter van Es · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2009, 18:49:56 »

I'm so glad you're calling this 101. A couple of sections Bob Possel and I contributed to the Technical Manual:

Simple, but do check it out!

Peter

waltklatt · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2009, 19:08:23 »

J. Huber,
Check the turn signal stalk too. If I remember correctly, you restored the steering wheel and took out the turn signal stalk. Might be a wire caught up in there. or a wire crossed. Open up the big bakelight connectors to see if the wires are not touching the barest or an errant strand of wire tiptoeing over to another.
My first job on a Mercedes at 12 yrs of age was to rewire a 1966 230SL, where someone cobbled the wires for the radio and promptly fried the entire dash. That was my introduction to the W113SL's and a love affair later.
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel

J. Huber · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2009, 19:09:34 »

Hi Peter. Thanks -- although the first wiki page is over my head (so far), the one about grounds I think I almost understand. Which has me thinking. Could this be:

1. I just re-painted some of my engine bay. I may have painted over the ground behind the Voltage Regulator. However, the VR and the auxillary fuse box seem to be working. Don't tell me that would affect wires under the dash...

--- So I just unpainted the ground under auxiliary box. Still no activity to the lights -- although could that have been the cause of the short? and now I need to repair the wires to find out?? Humor me guys -- I have exactly two and a half days until Spring driving season starts...

Peter van Es · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2009, 22:14:50 »

James

Your probems could be the result of:

a simple bad ground, in which case you need to check for un-insulated wires or touching connectors
a faulty switch, in which case you need to measure if voltage is applied to the output you are expecting to get voltage on
a miswired connector (did any of your connectors open up during removal and re-assembly ? Check this page http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Electrical.Connectors and especially the link next to the light-bulb
voodoo, as is often the case with electrical circuits. Buy me a flight to come fix it for you (I expect lodging and three square meals a day of course) and I promise I won't leave till its done

Peter

J. Huber · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2009, 17:45:27 »

Thank you to everyone helping out. Sadly, this has turned from the ridiculous to the sublime, or something like that...

Being the impatient type, I got under the dash yesterday and removed a section of the two wires that looked damaged. The Hi-Beam indicator wire seemed to have clearly exposed wire, the other wire was not bad but I spliced anyway. For now, I used a wire connector but talked to my alternator guy who will solder them for me soon.

Problem is -- removing the broken wire did not change a thing. So I went to bed last night thinking -- maybe it is the bulb in the temp gauge after all. Worst case scenerio -- no hi beam indicator for now and I can remove gauges again and check the bulb later.

NOT!

Today, I went to start the car -- and the starter not only dragged very slowly but continued to crawl after I pulled the key. What's That all about? Initially, the lights worked -- so it was not the battery. In disbelief I tried it again...same thing. I tried the tap the starter trick -- now I have nothing. Zilch. Dead on Arrival. I checked battery connections. I did not have much time (stupid job thing) -- but I crawled under to look at starter wires.

How many wires should be on the starter?? I saw a white one, and an empty blue connector...Is there supposed to be a wire in that one??

I am nearing the "car for sale" territory! -- as I am in over my head. And I am not particularly happy about it (can you tell?).

waltklatt · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2009, 19:39:38 »

James,
Ouch! I wouldn't go that far for the "for sale" territory.
I would look at the starter again and look around at the wires.
There should be a purple wire(pencil thickness or a bit smaller) (that one is the activator wire from the ignition switch),
Then you have a big thick wire that is obviously to the battery, and then a small thin wire....hmmm.
My mind is fried at the moment.
I'll consult my electrical wire diagram at home.
Sorry about that, I've had a week from hell with work and I'm brain fried.
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel

Peter van Es · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2009, 20:18:01 »

James...

that could be caused by a short circuit somewhere (you messing with the wires making an exposed wire touch a bit of metal, creating a ground-short). That would drain the battery and give you starting problems. Your starter (which requires a strong current) will fail well before your headlights. Use the instructions for Finding a short circuit or battery drain from the Wiki (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Troubleshooting) to try and fix this.

If you haven't touched the starter wires, do not suspect that. I would suspect switches near the dashboard. In the past I had a problem which stumped me for a week or so... and I'm an electrical engineer. Everything seemed to work, but after a while my indicators stopped working and burnt out my flasher relay. It turned out that the guy who had done some bodywork around the headlights had pulled one of the connectors apart and wired up the connector wrong... It appeared to work, but after a while when the frame of the headlight got a proper ground to the chassis, it created a short circuit which fried said relay.

The moment I pulled the headlight away from the chassis, it looked like it was all correct. The moment I put it back in, it failed. He had switched just two of the connector posts which meant that when I indicated left I had +12V directly attached to the chassis.

After solving that problem I added this page to the Wiki: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Connectors. Have a look at the document next to the lightbulb. If any of your connectors have been apart, verify them wire by wire, post by post, against that document. If they have not been apart, are you sure?

If this all fails, do not sell your car. Trailer your car to Blacklick instead...

Peter

J. Huber · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2009, 21:02:50 »

Ok. Not for sale (yet!)

I'll be regrouping shortly...

One quick question -- on the back of the center cluster instrument there was a wire. I put it on the left hand post then the bracket, then the nut. Does this sound correct?

Peter van Es · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2009, 21:26:58 »

About that center cluster wire, I wouldn't know. It sounds like you are grounding it. Are you sure it was grounded before ? Perhaps you ought to verify that first.

Check this also: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Lightswitch#Column

Peter

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2009, 21:44:57 »

James -

There are at least two, and sometimes three, wiring harness ground wires that are secured by the thumb nuts on the back of the instruments. You would not believe the strange things that can happen when ground wires are left suspended behind the dash instead of being grounded through the instrument securing brackets to the metal dash. If it happens to ba a common ground for several circuits, one component can actually ground out through another seemingly unrelated component with variable, but almost always interesting results. I have not personally experienced this on my Pagoda, but let me relate to you what happened when I failed to secure a similar ground wire to the back of an instrument that I replaced on my sister's MGB-GT many years ago: when she hit the horn switch or flicked the electric overdrive switch the high beams would flash, flicking the high beam stalk to engage high beams would dim all the lights, but neither the electric overdrive nor the horns would function at all, unless you put the car in reverse! Then the horns would blow, at least until the reverse lamps blew out! Simply finding the ground wire and securing it to one of the instrument clamps cured all these problems and everything returned to normal function once the reverse lamps bulbs that had been pressed into short lived service as fuses had been replaced. Now let's not start a thread about "Joseph Lucas, the King of Darkness," etc. Most automotive electrical problems regardless of component brand can often be traced to faulty grounds and poor connections, or failure to reconnect things properly when reassembling something taken apart!

J. Huber · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2009, 00:43:24 »

Thanks again -- keep the info coming!

As I am away from the car -- a few new thoughts:

1. I just read a bit in the wiki about pin connectors. This is a crazy thought but can the connector be fitted completely backwards? As it is now, the two large bakelite connectors under dash are facing same way. For some reason I had a flashback to them facing opposing directions! Is this possible? Can anyone confirm the orientation? Or maybe its not even possible to reverse it? The connector from the center cluster is the one I had taken off.

2. The terminals at the fuse box. If I had a loose connection terminal from behind (under the dash) would this drain the battery? Not sure I do but wondered.

Oh and Walt -- about the turn signal stalk -- I never did have it apart.

Peter van Es · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2009, 08:47:33 »

Re 1: if it is symmetrical, yes you could have. Is it the big 14 prong connector you are talking about? The way both these big connectors are mounted under the dash is such that the wires from the plug are facing the opposite direction of the wires of the socket. If the wires of both the plug and the socket are on the same side, you have it plugged in incorrectly. Check that first, it might be an easy fix!

Re 2: yes sir, it could indeed. When I bought my car first, I had intermittent starting problems. And a permanently low battery. I finally did the "find the short circuit" test, and narrowed it down to something under the dash. A previous owner had a powered car phone installed, and ripped it out. The remaining +12V charging wire had been wrapped with a little isolation tape. The heat hat made that come loose. Occasionally (not always) it would touch metal under the dash, creating a short, draining the battery. That caused my problems. Onece I'd found that wire, I removed it completely. No more problems since.

Peter

J. Huber · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2009, 14:10:48 »

Well, Peter. So much for easy fix. Yes 14 prongers. It looks to me like they only fit on one way -- yes one side has bundle to unit, other side the other direction.

There are two 14 prong plugs side by side. The plug closest to firewall is to the steering column. The one closer to driver is to the center gauge. Please someone tell me that is correct!

Anyway, since battery is apparently dead -- I cannot test anything until I get it recharged, correct?. I removed steering wheel and tach AGAIN. Just to see better. I am betting something heading to fuse 1 is draining the system. Just a hinch since the flash to pass wire was fried, there was a puff of smoke when I tested it initially... But how could it drain battery when lights were off?

Peter van Es · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2009, 14:56:16 »

James,

it becomes guessing now. The two connectors you see, I think the 14 prong one is for the Steering Line Assembly and the Warner blinking system. It should go into the steering column.

The connector document http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Connectors does not apply completely to the 280 SL/8 (see first page). It's the only one I have though, unless someone can send me a new pdf. I reckon it is incorrect for the instrument cluster, as we appear to have a rectangular plug and the document refers to a round plug. From the wiring diagram our instrument panel plug should have 12 leads, which means it should be smaller than the other connector.

For me the larger connector is closest to the firewall, but the sockets and prongs should obviously line up and match up. Given that they are different sizes you should be able to figure out which goes where.

I cannot really tell where my wire-bundles are headed exactly as I do have all my instruments in and it's a rats nest up there with the addition of all sort of alarm wiring.

Sorry I can't be of more help... Perhaps Bob Possel could chime in?

Peter

J. Huber · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2009, 15:25:33 »

Well Peter, first off I can't count. Both are 12 prongs. I am going to continue to study things today. Glad to hear you have a rat's nest too (only because misery loves company)...

If anyone is brave enough to take my troubles off-line, that would be great.
In any event, I'll be back.

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2009, 17:44:53 »

Hello, James,

I hope the pictures helps. Can't tell which is which but the plug on the left looks smaller?

naj

J. Huber · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2009, 19:44:30 »

Thanks Naj. -- Unlike your pics my two plugs are identical from the top! I am away from car but it looks like the steering column plug and the round blinker unit go next to each other. That means the instrument cluster is closer to driver -- which is what I have...

So here is a recap and what has me puzzled. A week ago, everything was normal except I had no high beam indicator and no headlamp flasher.

I find two damaged looking wires, cut out a section and resplice them together, respectively. One was the headlamp flasher -- the other was actually the charging light (not the hi-beam) ... Next day, battery completely drained... Is my splicing to blame?

J. Huber · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2009, 15:36:30 »

Hi. Does anyone who recently played with their center cluster unit remember a thin black wire with an eyelet at the back? If so, where and what? Please. Thanks.

Peter van Es · « **Reply #22 on:** March 21, 2009, 16:32:56 »

Mine looks exactly like Naj's... (but more in focus

) that's why I wrote what I wrote: a 14 prong and a 12 prong.

If you spliced two wires AND have NO blank bits of wire capable of touching bits of metal, you should be ok (unless you did it wrong and spliced one bit of wire 1 to the other bit of wire 2 and vice versa... think back over how you did it and you'll know).

Wires with an eyelet are typically meant to ground things.

However, given that your plugs look nothing like mine, perhaps I ought to stop writing and you ought to stop reading my drivel.

Peter

glenn · « **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2009, 16:38:09 »

Wiring systems on the 111, 113, pontoons, 50s and 60s MBs all seem prone to wiring fires. Many wires were packed in electrical tape bundles. Flexing and age resulted in shorts, etc. Wire insulation failed. Not to mention - PO and CO 'improvements'. A fact of life.

waqas · « **Reply #24 on:** March 21, 2009, 16:53:04 »

Aren't there differences in the harness/plug arrangements of 230SL vs. 280SL ?

James, sorry I can't send you a pic of my 230SL plugs (am very far away from car right now).

Regarding the wires you spliced, do you remember what kind of damage you saw? (electrical/heat damage, or mechanical?) Things in that area don't usually vibrate independently of one another to cause such severe mechanical damage to the wiring.

As far as I remember, the thin wires with eyelets went to the speedo and tach and attached underneath the centre knurled nut, to provide a ground connection for the speed/tach light bulbs.

J. Huber · « **Reply #25 on:** March 21, 2009, 19:06:21 »

Hi Waqas and others.

So I did some testing -- hope you can help me make heads or tails of it. I tried the testing procedure in the wiki (see Peter, I do go there first..) where I removed the fuse and watched the amp reading as I put them in. Now, I used my multimeter -- was told that would work for the test. I had it set on 10A and with leads on negative battery cable and negative battery post, inserted fuses one at a time.

Fuse number 1 is the only one that registered anything 001 Is this significant?
All others did nothing 000

I was also told another way to check is with all fuses in, test using the DC Volts setting. This way I got the following:

1. Doing straight battery test with all fuses in: 12.15
with #1 out: 12.75

2. Testing with leads on negatives as above: 12.15 with #1 in
11.46 with #1 out

Is this sounding like I tested things right? Is Fuse number 1 a problem child?

Peter van Es · « **Reply #26 on:** March 22, 2009, 09:39:29 »

What it means is that the short circuit that drained your battery is in the wiring that connects to fuse 1. So you look at the wiring diagram and find out everything that connects to fuse 1 and then trace that in the actual car. Fuse 1 connects to: Entrance light, parking light, clock, passing signal light, map light, hand lamp socket. So that's where you have to go look for your short...

It does not mean that fuse #1 itself is a problem.

Peter

mbzse · « **Reply #27 on:** March 22, 2009, 09:54:40 »

Quote from: vanesp on March 22, 2009, 09:39:29

What it means is that the short circuit that drained your battery is in the wiring that connects to fuse 1. .../... map light... So that's where you have to go look for your short...

The map light in the glove compartment lid is fed by a wire that may well be squeezed/insulation worn when wire passes from instrument panel to glove box lid, resulting in an electrical short.
Easy to disconnect wiring in order to test this, do it on the connector block just under the glove box, above the transmission tunnel
/Hans in Sweden

.

bpossel · « **Reply #28 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:20:18 »

James,

The map light is a good place to check for a short as Hans mentioned.
Another good place to check is the entrance light. I had an electrical shorting problem last summer after I had my car back together again. I ended up pulling all of my instruments out again, double-checking all the wires, etc.. for a possible crimp, short.... As I worked my way from left to right... the next item I checked was the entrance light... sure enough, it was the entrance light! One side of the connection on the light was loose and touching the metal on the dash frame

.

Those of you that have replaced your entrance light with a new one know that the new ones are much cheaper in quality

! The wires attach to the light via clips on each side vs a small screw type connection. I like the old style much better!
Bob

waqas · « **Reply #29 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:50:26 »

James, whilst you're at it, make sure you've got rubber grommets wherever wires are passing through a metal opening. You can get one of those "Help!" grommet sets from your local auto parts store to get a reasonable fit, until you locate the MB part (if you choose to). If you don't want to disconnect the wire, you can simply cut a slit in the grommet.

Bob, regarding new entrance lights: can just the plastic cover be swapped from new to old? This way I can keep the innards whilst replacing the cover. (mine is yellowing and cracked).

bpossel · « **Reply #30 on:** March 22, 2009, 11:42:10 »

Waqas,

Good question! The discoloration is why I replaced mine. If the lens could be replaced, keeping the original "innards", that would be nice....
Bob

J. Huber · « **Reply #31 on:** March 22, 2009, 15:40:18 »

All very interesting -- keep the ideas coming. I was under there studying what I can see from number 1 --- and comparing notes to the wiring diagram. My attention is still on the red/white/blue flash to pass wire that comes off Number 1, since that is the one element of those Fuse 1 items that worked intermittenly -- then seems to have gone out before all this happened.

I will investigate entrance light and map light wires -- but also the others from number one. So how exactly do I test an individual wire?

Oh and some good news on the other front (the hi-beam indicator). Since I pulled the gauges again! I decided to double check the bulbs inside the center cluster. I did not do that before because they worked fine. Well, much to my surprise, as I pulled the backing off -- no bulb in the socket! I was ready to call PAS -- then discovered it was in the front part of the gauge. It had apparently unlatched from its socket. Twisted it back in -- and voila -- have my blue hi-beamer back! I also looked at my rheostat -- that you recall had stopped dimming. I'll be if there is no spring in there! So either it perished on the way out? or PAS did something to it? Either way -- the lights are on full -- which I guess is the brightside

. I can live with this one.

But back to my short: Thanks for the ideas -- I just have to figure out how to move from here.

JH

J. Huber · « **Reply #32 on:** March 22, 2009, 18:15:52 »

Well, just getting started on the expedition -- and I ran across this -- does it look suspicious to you?

It is a black wire that comes from the lower part of the clock (quartz repro). It is not the ground I don't think. It is exposed wire clipped under the left hand screw of the glovebox.

waqas · « **Reply #33 on:** March 22, 2009, 20:06:28 »

I've seen a ground wire hooked up there (on at least one of my cars). Why don't you disconnect it and repeat your experiments below to rule it out?

J. Huber · « **Reply #34 on:** March 22, 2009, 20:20:42 »

Good idea Waqas. And YES turns out that was the ground wire for the clock. Wire was black -- I was thinking a ground would be brown (or green!).

I now have in my possession a circuit test light -- and if I understand it correctly, I connect the clamp to the car body and touch the wire with the pointy end? With everything off, the light should not light up when I touch things? Where I am confused is, with fuse 1 there is always power -- so wouldn't it light up anyway?

How do I check for a short in a hot wire? hook to a positive terminal and wait for light to go out?

Oh and by the way -- if Fuse 1 is the culprit for drainage and I take the fuse out -- does this theoretically keep the battery from draining? I can't be taking the thing in for a charge every two minutes....
___________

Update as of Sunday evening: So I took out the glovebox, the clock and the radio -- in search of troublemaking wires behind the dash. I connected my multi-meter to the battery and watched the readout as I tinkered. Not sure why but now my battery is reading 12.5 with fuse 1 in and with it out. I did not do much except feel out some wires here and there. The reading drops a fraction to 12.43-48 as I open door, glove box, and maplight -- so I think that's normal.

My next plan is to get back to that flash to pass wire under the fuse box -- and see if my jostling it affects the battery reading. Does my technique seem reasonable?

Peter van Es · « **Reply #35 on:** March 23, 2009, 09:37:14 »

James,

with a healthy battery there is potentially very little voltage drop visible from a short. The best way is to verify the current flowing. No current means no short. Current means: something is working (a light, a motor) or you have a short. In one of your posts you indicated that when the meter was on the 10A range, it detected a current of 001. If that means 1A, it is likely to be a short circuit. If it means 0.01A or 0.001A that's more like an instrument light.

What you should look for are:

loose wires, or damaged, or frayed wires with exposed ends able to touch bare or painted metal. Essentially you should not have any. If you find one, use the Voltmeter part of your instrument (attach the -ve black lead to a ground or the chassis, the +ve red lead to the loose, exposed wire). If it registers a voltage when everything is switched off (note: the voltage does not have to be 12 V, it can be anything over 0V) and your key is out of the ignition, that wire can cause a short
trace the wire back (physically) to a connector. Try and identify the connector and the post position (you can carefully open up these connectors) and use the connector manual and the wiring diagram (and the colour of the wire if it is original) to determine where/what it should have been connected in the first place

Peter

psmith · « **Reply #36 on:** March 24, 2009, 06:15:36 »

Sorry James, not to be off topic, but WHAT are those white fuzzy things in the the radio opening? Is your dog helping with the diagnostics? Did a chicken fly out of your dash

J. Huber · « **Reply #37 on:** March 24, 2009, 14:58:47 »

Hey Pete. As much as I'd like to say I've trained Fluffy to help me (or Quacky for that matter)... its just a terry cloth towel to let the radio and wires drape out of the opening! BTW, you can also see the rough and expanded opening for a larger radio... We have NO secrets here.

hill · « **Reply #38 on:** March 24, 2009, 22:23:22 »

James get your self a clip over amp meter. You should find one for ten to twenty dollars.

Start at the positive battery cable then go to the looms. If it shows power drain split the loom and check each wire independtly.

J. Huber · « **Reply #39 on:** March 25, 2009, 13:44:25 »

Hey Daryl. That was fantastic advice. I never heard of the clamp-on tester but from the looks of googling it-- that will be much easier for me to use.

And Peter, the reading on fuse one was 0.01 which strikes me as ok.

Just a quick update. I spent a lot of time yesterday inspecting my wiring. Essentially pulled the entire dash apart (except heater and cig lighter). Looked at every connection and inch of wiring I could get to. Then it was major yoga time to look closely at the nest (under the steering wheel). Its so ridiculous how many wires are just bunched up there. Maybe my car is unique but its really a pain to figure out what is what.

After poking, prodding, and staring, I really only saw one or two wires that had some wire showing (just a bit really). And using a voltmeter, very little response. (Daryl's tool would be a lot easier here). Anyway, I isolated the only ones that looked ominous -- the windshield wiper wire (black and purple) and perhaps the flash to pass lead (red/white/blue). So guys -- I resorted to the old fashioned fix -- electrical tape!

More testing showed that my vital signs were good. The flash to pass worked twice and then not. Darn. So that remains my only thorn. I checked one side of the multi-pronger, and it was fine. I also looked at stalk. That looks good. So not knowing where to look next ... I succumbed. Threw everything back together and went for a top-down drive! Pheww. I am ok now.

Thanks all.

graphic66 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 25, 2009, 16:43:52 »

Here is a test to check for a parasitic draw.
Procedure:
1. Disconnect the negative battery cable from the battery.
2. Wire the two leads of either the voltmeter or light bulb between the disconnected battery cable and the negative battery post. You should see the battery drain at this time on the voltmeter (or see the light bulb lit).
3. Pull the fuses in the car one at a time, and observe if the battery drain stops. When the drain stops, you've found the problem circuit and need to investigate why.
4. If you've pulled all the fuses and saw no change, the problem circuit may be one with no fuse in it like the alternator or starter circuit. You would need to disconnect them manually to test

J. Huber · « **Reply #41 on:** March 25, 2009, 20:00:36 »

Possible breakthrough on the flash to pass!!

I just decided to take my stalk apart again, this time knowing which wire I was after. However, the wiring looks pretty good and tight...

However again -- I tested the headlight flasher and now it comes on consistently (ie every time) WHEN I hold the stalk down as if to make a left turn! If the ignition is on, the signals come on as well. With no keys, only when I pull down. If I pull straight back nothing until I ease it down... Now, to figure out what that might mean? I removed the two big screws but the unit did not want to come out...Is there a trick.

Peter van Es · « **Reply #42 on:** March 25, 2009, 20:41:26 »

James,

that may mean something INSIDE the switch might have been creating the problems. Disassemble carefully and reassemble!

Peter

J. Huber · « **Reply #43 on:** March 25, 2009, 21:55:08 »

Well Peter you are probably right -- because...

Short-lived success. emphasis on short. I was trying to see what I could -- and then out went the flasher again. Now nothing. What's more -- I then tried Graphics procedure: the battery sits at 11.75 hooked up that way (voltmeter between negative clamp and post). When I remove number 1 -- it drops to 3.5 . all other fuses stay steady. So if the short is in that switch -- would it make the drain so substantial. Flash to pass is on number 1 -- I have that tattooed on my forehead...

Andres G · « **Reply #44 on:** March 26, 2009, 02:06:11 »

James,

I read your comment after my mention of the washer/flash to pass post and came here to check out this message. It seems you've checked everything possible and that the guys have you on the right track.

On my side, I can tell you I've fixed the windscreen washer today after running a few tests with it. Turns out it was not wired propperly so all I had to do was connect the right wires on it. I also worked on the flash to pass, which I believe will be fixed with a new relay... only if I could tell which one it is???

The symptom on mine was the following: I pulled the stalk backward towards the steering wheel and it worked a few times, then stopped working completely and since then, I've not been able to get it back to work. I have checked fuses and they all seem fine, so my next test will be the relay.

On the upside of this, I also discovered the clearance light on the passenger side headlight is not working. I will have to replace that bulb soon.

Keep the updates coming, they have been really interesting to follow.

Regards,
Andres G

J. Huber · « **Reply #45 on:** March 26, 2009, 02:29:07 »

Glad to see I have company on this one, Andres! You got me curious about this relay thing -- what have you heard?. I hope to take a closer look at the stalk switch tomorrow or Friday. One thread here by our esteemed Longtooth scares the living daylights out of me with all its intricacies related to the stalk. A new switch is even more frightening!

What has me concerned is wondering if the current state of my stalk switch is draining the battery. Last check showed fuse 1 drawing. For a couple days there the draining had stopped-- then whilst messing with the passer things went into drain mode again. Is it possible a wire in the stalk (hot one) gets in a position to drain one minute and then works its way to not draining the next? Sorry just thinking out loud.

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #46 on:** March 26, 2009, 11:18:49 »

Quote from: Andres G on March 26, 2009, 02:06:11

James,

I read your comment after my mention of the washer/flash to pass post and came here to check out this message. It seems you've checked everything possible and that the guys have you on the right track.

I also worked on the flash to pass, which I believe will be fixed with a new relay... only if I could tell which one it is???

Regards,
Andres G

There are on relays for controlling the headlights.

naj

Andres G · « **Reply #47 on:** March 26, 2009, 22:25:19 »

Well, I guess Naj sorted this out for us... there being no relays running the headlights, I too have to get working on the stalk as I think that is the root of the problem in my case (and probably yours). Thanks for the input Naj!

Does someone have a diagram on how to pull the switch out of the steering column? Does it come out fairly easy?

Thanks,
Andres

Peter van Es · « **Reply #48 on:** March 26, 2009, 22:52:58 »

Read the following on the wiper / indicator / flash to pass feature and stalk...

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3711.0
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9311.0
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=554.0 -- High beam flasher on column switch -- this is a Longtooth special issue

It's about time someone stuck the end result in the Technical Manual!

James, interesting too how many times your name comes up in posts about electrical problems.... this is not the first time it's gone on the blink, has it

Peter

J. Huber · « **Reply #49 on:** March 27, 2009, 04:41:35 »

Quote from: vanesp on March 26, 2009, 22:52:58

James, interesting too how many times your name comes up in posts about electrical problems.... this is not the first time it's gone on the blink, has it
Peter

Well, you would sure think so wouldn't ya. It seems like most of my wiring issues over the years were minor annoyances or just plain stupid things like accidentally unplugging something. But what is interesting is many of my problems are sporadic -- so I just keep plodding along hoping the gremlins stay at bay...They have for the most part.

But alas, back to the "current problem" -- I decided to take the stalk apart and have a look -- thinking we might have 'er surrounded. Andres, the threads Peter offered are really helpful -- but here is my general description of how it goes:

1. I removed the steering wheel to give me some room since my plan was to tinker with the stalk still attached to the column. Complete removal of the connector pin and pig-tail is much more involved.
2. Unplug the large pin connector under the dash that heads up the column.
3. Remove the rubber cover on stalk. There are two large screws. Take them out carefully so as not to drop them in column.
4. The unit can be pulled out now -- if you feed a bit of the pigtail up from the bottom of the column -- it will come out about 3-4 inches. Be careful because the two large wires are the horn and they stay connected.
5. At this point you can inspect the wires and their connections to the unit.
6. You can then remove the 4 small screws that hold the cover on the switch itself. Be ready.
7. The moment the cover comes off, a little copper piece will want to jump out. It sits on a little spring, and with cover off, it comes off. The curved part faces in.
8. At this point, you can clean the contacts, inspect the mechanisms, and maybe identify issues.

My unit was really not bad. My wiring was all attached as far as I could tell. There was a little dirt and grime in the crevices which I cleaned with a Q-tip and alcohol. I also emery clothed the metal contacts. The only thing that caught my attention was one of the rivet like things (you see when you look down into the switch with cover off) was unattached. Just floating around in there. May explain why my stalk on right turns doesn't hold. I took the piece out -- not much I can do with it -- others may have tried to reattach it with solder?

Anyway, put it all back to see if the cleaning helped. Nope. Everything works except the flash to pass. As for turn signal lock and correct, left still locks -- right doesn't (but didn't before except on occasion...)

So, I am back to square one. Is there any link between the light switch itself and the wire that feeds the flash to pass. I am now trying to find some part of the hot wire that could be grounding... also, are there supposed to be little metal collars in each of the holes in the 12 prong plug connectors? where the pins go in. I see one hole that is missing one.

Sorry to be so longwinded...

J. Huber · « **Reply #50 on:** March 28, 2009, 15:36:34 »

Yet another update. I started thinking about the wire that keeps the Number 1 fuse all the time and its relationship to the headlamp flasher. So I followed the wire back to the light switch. (tach out again! -- got it down to 2 minutes!)... I tried to remove headlight unit but the chrome collar would not budge. So I checked it in situ. All the connections were good, so I figured, "next." Then I saw a patch of exposed wire -- the big one that comes from starter. Lit the tester up like the 4th of July! Struck me as a dangerous situation -- so I secured it with more tape. Still no flasher but I think its lucky I found that exposed section.

So I am about out of ideas on the flash to pass. I checked and doubled checked every wire I could get to and the connections at stalk, at pin connectors (both sides), at the fuse box, and at the headlamp assembly. Thing just doesn't work. Battery seems to be holding at 12.20-35 -- so I guess its time to move on.

Peter van Es · « **Reply #51 on:** March 28, 2009, 18:15:38 »

James,

forget the flash-to-pass... do you stil have current drain now that you've found that exposed wire? If you have a current drain, the car won't start, and you won't be overtaking anything so the flash-to-pass is useless anyway. So use the original test to see if you now have NO current draining over fuse 1.

Do remember that some electrical tape will not last forever, especially if it gets warm. A better solution is new wire, but if that's hard, use some crimp insulation...

Peter

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #52 on:** March 28, 2009, 20:56:18 »

I know this sounds obvious, and I am a little fuzzy on the exact detail as I did the flash to pass hook-up on my U.S. spec 230SL a couple of years ago (per diirections found either on this site or Dorian's site), but isn't the wire for flash to pass routed through one of the fuses in the oblong fuse box under the hood? Might be worth checking, as well as the screw connections on the back of the fuse block...

J. Huber · « **Reply #53 on:** March 28, 2009, 22:54:43 »

Thanks Peter & Mike -- good suggestions all. Well, doing the original ammeter test of fuses out -- then in, the result is a flashing 0.00 Amps to 0.01 Amps only on fuse 1. Since this is the lowest possible reading on my meter -- I am thinking it is the clock which would be the only thing drawing power. Guess I could unhook clock and try it.

Mike, you have the hook-up correct I think. Mine is a euro and the flash to pass had worked. It was only recently as I reinstalled my rebuilt gauges that this whole saga began. The hi-beam indicator was out and the flash to pass went intermittent then nada. What threw a wrench in it all was a dead battery one day -- that began the detour of battery drain. Hi-beam was the bulb. Battery may have been a short-type drain or something else. I had the battery charged without checking so who knows, maybe it was not drained... but when I put it back, car started fine...Thus the tracing of wires, etc. None of it resulted in a flasher fix. AT the moment, car is like a spring chicken. The weather has turned nice and I am back to finding excuses to take a drive.

tel76 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:13:15 »

Hello Peter
I hope you do not think this is a stupid question but in one of the your posts above you quote 3 formulae.(probably not the correct terminology)
Where do you get these from,is there an index,how do i acces these items?

Peter van Es · « **Reply #55 on:** March 29, 2009, 12:37:35 »

Eric,

they are in the Technical Manual:

http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Troubleshooting
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Ground
or, for the whole shebang: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Start

James, that could indeed be the clock. To make sure I would disconnect and test again if there's any current draw. You need to feel sure that when you've parked your pagoda after a drive, you'll be able to get away again without a flat battery.

Peter

hands_aus · « **Reply #56 on:** April 06, 2009, 23:26:26 »

Hello James,

Quote

The only thing that caught my attention was one of the rivet like things (you see when you look down into the switch with cover off) was unattached. Just floating around in there. May explain why my stalk on right turns doesn't hold. I took the piece out -- not much I can do with it -- others may have tried to reattach it with solder?

I vaguely remember that "rivet" is a contact point and as such is necessary.

Perhaps you could compare the way the contacts operate for the left turn function in the stalk .
I think they can be repaired.

J. Huber · « **Reply #57 on:** April 07, 2009, 03:52:30 »

Hi Bob. I too recall something about the rivets. I think it may have even been on the old Pagoda113 site -- posted by the venerable George Davis I believe. There is very useful info about the stalk switch here for sure -- which I have studied very closely. Unfortunately, I need a picture most of the time! This would be one of them.

I do have a strong suspicion that one of the contact points in my stalk switch is the culprit for the inop flasher. Not the rivet in question but one of the small strips that makes contact with the copper plate... I plan to open up the switch again sometime and try some remedies -- after some Pagoda road time. Thanks.

Peter van Es · « **Reply #58 on:** April 07, 2009, 07:41:34 »

James,

I had a look at all the photographs I have from the old Pagoda113 site. None of the stalk switch... so I can't help you there. Most of the content from that site's How To articles is now in the Technical Manual. Stuff hidden in the forum messages is not always... typically because it's hard to find.

Remember, I do not have the Pagoda113 forum software, and it is not available anymore. I do have the database (although messages have been made anonymous), and I wrote a (very simple) program to access it, which I use to get data out of the database. If you'd like to have a look, it is on my own server in my basement (so don't you all go hammer it now) but if you look, and find something new and interesting, you must promise to add it to the Technical Manual straight-away. That's what I do.

If you'd like to have a look at the old Pagoda113 content, look here: http://bali.esweb.nl/~vanesp/p113index.php

Peter

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