Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: waltklatt on October 26, 2006, 14:56:38
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Have a question to ask.
The underdash panels-how do they fit in with the dashpad underneath? Do you loosen the screws for the dash pads and slip the panel between the dash metal and pads? Or should there be seperate screws in the metal to hold the panels tight against the pads(not loosened)?
Maybe one could help me solve this puzzle. The 220SL did not have underdash panels and I have a set to install, but am at a loss to the proper installation.
Thanks in advance.
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel
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Walt,
Good seeing you and the 220Sl over at Tom's last weekend. My 67 230Sl originally had the underdash panels installed. I removed all three during my restoration and have not put them back in--yet. When I do I will only put in the one on the drivers side since I have installed a Frigiking A/C unit and this occupies the space under the dashe where the other two would normally go. On my original set-up, the three underdash panels butted against the rear edge of the underdash pads and screwed into the thin metal strip exposed after the pads are installed. Also on each of the the footwell underdash panels there was a courtesy light that screws through the panel and into this same metal strip in order to complete the electrical ground. I'm not sure how those with A/C installed fit the courtesy light on the passenger side since this is where the A/C evaporator box sits. Hope this helps.
George Des
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Mine has the original under dash pads. They butt up against the upholstered "knee bolster". Small phillips head screws with a captive flat washer screw into the actual dash structure, of which about 30mm is exposed forward of the "knee bolster" before the under dash pads are fitted.
The only courtesy light on my non-A/C car is the one below the cigar lighter.
Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex
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so how do they attach on the other (firewall) side?
pics?
thanks,
Tom
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Reviving this because I need a push... thinking about replacing my underdash panels. Mine fell apart years ago (and one section was missing anyway)... I have hesitated -- I don't know why. Should I make them my first R & R item of 2008?
Has anyone bought new ones lately? Where & How mucho? Quality?
What hardware will I need? Obviously I have none.
And to follow up Tom's question -- any good pics of how the attach? I figure with all the carpet/paint repair going on, someone might have just done these...Thanks all.
James
63 230SL
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I bought a new set at Van Dijk's a few years ago. I have attached them as per George and Vince's tips however this only covers the nearest edge - particularly the passenger side one does not seem to want to stay in place at the farthest end (where the feet rest). I keep on pushing them up against the carpet and wedging them in that way, but they keep dropping down. So maybe the fit combination between the new panel and the carpet is not 100%, or is there something else that should keep the far edge snug?
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I did mine a few month ago. It's not a hard job, in fact it's very easy, but like most things with these cars falls more under the 'art' heading. You just need the panels, a drill and the requisite number of screws and chrome washer type things that hold the panel. Make sure you get the correct panels: i.e left/right hand drive, and I think there are differences for cars with AC, etc. I got mine from SLS and they're fine. Much like Cees, mine did not fit perfectly. The centre panel sort of sits there, whilst the flanking ones took quite a bit of bending and screwing about (i.e screwing the panels on and off and moving the holes around) to get them to stay in place. But it isn't hard.
JH
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Since a picture is worth 1000 words, here are 4000. These are the original factory panels that Vince refers to in his post below. I own the car now.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2142/21487079_8ee4a83ca6_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2297/21494988_503e61d880_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/21487053_36d9fe4a19_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2337/21487005_a19ce89b6c_o.jpg)
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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John,
I notice the pictures you are including are being hosted from Flickr. Whilst that's good, it does mean that if you delete these pictures from Flickr or lapse your account, they'll be lost forever.
How about adding this information and uploading the pictures to the technical manual? That way we can keep this valuable info for posterity.
Peter
1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php).
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All very helpful guys. Thanks. And yes John, pics are worth big bucks in my book. Double thanks.
Well, naturally prices have gone up since the last time I entertained this idea. Dang. Still there is quite a variance in cost:
Miller's quotes 169
Bud's quotes 250
SLS looks like just under 100 Euros. (how much is that in US?)
K&K doesn't show them in the online catalog. I will ask tomorrow.
And if I counted right: there are two screws with washers on panel 1, three screws on panel 2, and 4 screws with washers on panel 3. (left to right)
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by vanesp
How about adding this information and uploading the pictures to the technical manual? That way we can keep this valuable info for posterity.
Peter, I tried displaying pictures uploaded to the club website and then in the [img] html command without success. Compared to other forums software, displaying pictures here is more difficult, not complaining, just relating my experience. You, or anyone else is more than welcome to download any of my 250SL pictures from flickr and upload them to the tech manual. I haven't done that yet. Please let me know if that works for you. http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/ I'm happy you find them useful. Pictures answer many questions, often raise more and are best viewed when visible right in the post with the dialog the author has provided.
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
A
And if I counted right: there are two screws with washers on panel 1, three screws on panel 2, and 4 screws with washers on panel 3. (left to right)
Panel 1 has a third screw with a washer behind the floor mat at the firewall, like the two on the third panel.
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Thanks! I am hoping I can still see the screw holes from my originals now that I have an idea where they are... If I can find a decent price on the panels!
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
If I can find a decent price on the panels!
You may want to consider making your own. From the 190 SL forum, a highly respected upholstery guy recommends this board for kick panels for the 190 SL. Lebaron Bonney ...part # PB20DGRY
http://www.lebaronbonney.com/osc/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1597&osCsid=8480a7e3333ed1e7683b2b5a28bc2f7e
http://www.lebaronbonney.com/osc/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=205&osCsid=8480a7e3333ed1e7683b2b5a28bc2f7e
It's very similar to the underdash panel for the 113. Trace templates from your original, use an adhesive spray to tack on the foam and you're set. Here's a picture of my 190 SL kick panel and what the board should look like.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2150567472_417108333a_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2241/2149774299_f03af30c95_o.jpg)
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Hey John, very intriguing and the price sure seems right. If I were to go that route -- we'd need to move this thread over to R & D...
One obstacle will be that I only have the center and the passenger side to trace. I might need a picture or some measurements of the driver's side. In fact, I'd love to see all three laid out since mine are pretty worn.
The second obstacle might be recreating the "flip groove" on panels 1 and 3.
But I guess it could be done.
Another question: my old passenger piece seem bowed -- were they all relatively flat when new?
BTW I did redo my kick panels a while back. I used a piece of oil painter's board and covered it with the extra MB TEX from my dash recover. So my car is no stranger to non-traditional trimmings!
James
63 230SL
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James,
They come flat when new - from SLS at least. Like I send, they take quite a bit of bending in some places to get them to fit. They are also 'scored' in the right places to help with the angles. Look at the photos again and you'll see what I mean.
JH
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quote:
Originally posted by thelews
Compared to other forums software, displaying pictures here is more difficult, not complaining, just relating my experience
Full instructions that work for most people are here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/faq.asp#GetForum
The suggestion of you adding to the Technical Manual is a serious one: it is meant to be a group effort. There aren't enough hours in the day for me to do that single handed... ;)
Peter
1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php).
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Jim, as you can see in the picture, the passenger panel is flat, they all are. If need be, I can remove the driver's panel and take some pictures for you with measurements. Your two panels, however worn, should be adequate for a template. Perhaps someone on the forum here has all their panels out and can trace some templates for you.
John
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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John:
I am missing the driver's panel (LHD) so any pictures or measurements would be great!
Thanks,
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by thelews
Jim, as you can see in the picture, the passenger panel is flat, they all are. If need be, I can remove the driver's panel and take some pictures for you with measurements. Your two panels, however worn, should be adequate for a template. Perhaps someone on the forum here has all their panels out and can trace some templates for you.
John
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
Steve
Seaside, CA
1964 230sl roadster
White (050)/Black (116)
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I really like the idea of someone with relatively fresh panels laying them out and making a template. I'd gladly pay for materials and shipping (which wouldn't be much probably).
And James, that scored part is one of my worries. On my old one that piece eventually fell off from all the bending.
James
63 230SL
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I will have mine out ('66 230 SL) sometime in the next month or two. I would be willing to make a template for someone.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch...
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Happy New Year! :D
ALL DIMENSIONS IN INCHES
This is the driver side panel...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2003/2153323910_119c75a4_o.jpg)
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Wow. Thanks John. Same to you! Well, I ordered a panel today so it looks like I'll be giving the "home-made" version a try...
Need to find some foam backing and the best way to cut the various nooks and crannies. Wish me luck! (and Steve if I have enough left over for a second driver's panel, its yours!)
PS don't let this discourage anyone from making a handy-dandy template! I am much better at tracing than I am at mechanical drafting...
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Need to find some foam backing and the best way to cut the various nooks and crannies.
You should be able to find acceptable foam backing at just about any fabric store. The foam is 7/16" thick, go 1/2 rather than 3/8 if they don't have 7/16. Use a very sharp EXACTO knife to cut, starting with the broad cuts and then working your way in. For the curved indentations, first cut them as rectangles and then round the corners. Don't expect to cut through on one swipe, it may take a couple or more for a nice clean cut. Cut from the finished side. Have a good straight edge to follow and TAKE YOUR TIME. Good luck and be sure to show us your result! The paneling is 1/8" thick.
John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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John:
That's a great picture with dimensions, thanks!
James:
Where did you get your panel? I contacted Labaron-Bonny (see link below) but the shipping was a bit steep so I opted out.
Happy 2008!
Steve
Steve
Seaside, CA
1964 230sl roadster
White (050)/Black (116)
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A few years ago I decided to replace my panels before they disintegrated and wasn't able to find them in the US. I measured and drew up the center and right panel (including the angled bend) that I had and made a cardboard template for the left side that was missing. Then I took it ot TAP Plastics and had them made out of black plastic with a "wrinkle" finish. They're not original, but they work very well.
Pete S.
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Clever Pete. Probably more durable than the originals.
Well, I went ahead and ordered the item John suggested. One issue is the piece is 1/16 thick which may be a little less than original. If its to flimsy I may have to double up. Waiting for the panel...
While I am at it -- what can anyone tell me about the trunk board panels? The cardboard pieces that wedge into the sides of the trunk. I assume my car had them at one point. Are they a similar material to the underdashers?
James
63 230SL
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James:
Funny you should ask, I just received a new one ($69.00) from Miller's Benz (http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~partsort) It fits and looks great and they have the foam backing. They have them for right or left side and are precut for the expansion tank. (they arrive flat, not curved, so perhaps they can be fashioned into an underdash panel. I'll have to look at that possibility!)
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Clever Pete. Probably more durable than the originals.
Well, I went ahead and ordered the item John suggested. One issue is the piece is 1/16 thick which may be a little less than original. If its to flimsy I may have to double up. Waiting for the panel...
While I am at it -- what can anyone tell me about the trunk board panels? The cardboard pieces that wedge into the sides of the trunk. I assume my car had them at one point. Are they a similar material to the underdashers?
James
63 230SL
Steve
Seaside, CA
1964 230sl roadster
White (050)/Black (116)
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Hey Steve. Well, you probably wondered when the other shoe would drop...
As you warned, the shipping cost from Lebaron is scary. Initially the online order quoted 7 dollars. I thought, boy Steve is even more of a cheapskate than me! Then they called me today and said it would be 48! on a 10 dollar item...So I have pulled the plug for now. I am going to see if anyone locally might have a suitable panel.
Thanks for the info on trunk panels. Interesting about making a dasher out of them. And Pete, what did your fab run you?
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
I am going to see if anyone locally might have a suitable panel.
It must be the size that's running up the shipping cost???
Just hung up the phone with my friends at www.blackforestllc.com and he was telling me they use a moldable plastic to replicate the panels and then cover it with whatever material the customer wants...from original look to matching interior leather. He said they're durable and infinitely moldable. Might be worth checking out. This outfit is doing the engine rebuild on my 190 SL and do a lot of 113 work, always 3-5 of them in the shop. You want to speak with Michael, if you call 414-228-4899. I don't know the cost.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Thanks John. I just had an idea to call back Lebaron and see if they could cut the panel in quarters then ship. Worth a try.
Oh and this could turn into an expensive project -- I stopped off at a local restorer to ask about the panels. Got to talking about replacing floors, a paint job, etc...[:p]
James
63 230SL
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Back on track! I was able to find a panel board just like Lebaron locally. 12 bucks.
The only problem is it is black not gray. I figure I can overcome that either by living with black -- or if I can, use some vinyl paint to get it to dark gray.
So for you guys who bought from SLS, Van Dijk, etc. what color are your replacements?
Also, foam. I notice with John's that the foam extends beyond the panel on the driver's side. Does it also on the passenger's? Looks flush on center? How about the replacements -- what does the foam look like? Thanks all.
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Also, foam. I notice with John's that the foam extends beyond the panel on the driver's side. Does it also on the passenger's? Looks flush on center?
Foam extends on passenger side panel on the sides, like driver's. Is flush on the bolster and floor mat ends.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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I see that you are discussing the LHD version.
Anyone out there know where I can find the RHD panels? Friends from the UK or Downunder?
I checked with SLS but they said that they don't have it but didn't say whether they didn't have the RHD one or just panels.
1965 230 SL White Manual
Hong Kong
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Hey Eryck, I am not sure if "recreating" one as I am embarking on would be as easy as reversing the pattern? Maybe someone with RHD panels can verify. As far as SLS -- I believe they do have LHDs so they may have meant RHDs are scarce...
And while we are here -- can anyone with 230SL LHD Auto panels confirm if the driver's side has the 3 inch hole? I know John's manual panel does -- just want to confirm on autos. (oh and color?)
James
63 230SL
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Well, I finally got around to my "rainy day" project. Overall, I think things turned out pretty good. I ended up buying a "finished panel board" or "package tray" as it is also called. It was black and 1/16 inch thick. I then cut it to size using John's dimensions for the driver's side and tracing my old panels for the others. I needed to trim things here and there to get a good fit in the car. Also, I realized his is a manual, mine is an auto so I had to modify it a bit. Next, I cut some 1/2 inch foam for backing and glued it with 3M spray. It didn't cut as crisply as I'd like but its ok. Having better tools might have helped. Finally I hit it all with some charcoal grey vinyl spray paint.
Final cost: panelboard $12, foam backing $5, vinyl spray $5, your encouragement -- priceless!
The original ones...
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/200819225529_panels2.jpg)
The repros...
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/200819225821_panels.jpg)
Thanks guys.
James
63 230SL
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Hi James,
Great job. They look really nice. Is the panel board vinyl over plastic or a solid plastic material? Where did you find it?
Here's a picture of my repo's. They're not as shiny as they look in the picture, the flash lit them up. I can't remember how much it cost to have them cut out, but it was not much, a while you wait kind of deal. But I think you beat me at 22 bucks!
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/psmith/200811004015_underdash.JPG)
Pete S.
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Very professional! I wouldn't have know the difference. I may have to pick your brain and borrow your templates on this one! :D
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Looks good guys. Yes, my dimensions are for a manual transmission panel and would be different and more difficult.
The foam is hard to cut smoothly. They use special tools. A scissors just can't get as smooth an edge.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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Ok guys... now who is going to add this info as a write up in the Technical Manual, this section:
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Interior.Underdashpanels
Peter
1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php).
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Hey Peter. Well, I'd be more than willing to write-up my experience for the wiki. Of course, others would possibly do things different -- and probably better. (as John has mentioned, the proper tools would really help to refine things). But I'll share if you'd like. (I have a handful of photos of the process)...
And Pete S: I used a panel board very similar to the one from Lebaron-Bonney hyperlinked below. However, the cost to ship was 48 bucks so I searched locally. At least two upholstery shops had them (in black not grey). One wanted 35 bucks -- the other 12. Go figure. I have dealt with the first guy before -- kind of a jerk actually. So I gladly paid the other fella 12 dollars. The board is basically cardbord with a laminated vinyl-like material. Not super sturdy but it has the grain finish like the originals... But more about this in the wiki!
James
63 230SL
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Hey James, I'm a wiki newbie too! I started fooling around with the breaks/hand break section to get my feet wet. Shoot me an email and we can help each other figure it out.
Pete S.
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I have an intrest in finding or reproducing the underdash panel boards my self. My 280SL has a modified frankstein air conditioner unite my dad fabricated. the problem is it is ugly and dangerious there is a metal stip under the passenger side of the air conditioner and my future plans since this is not daily driver is to totaly remove the A/C unite from the inside of the car and the engine bay and put it back pre A/C. I got the metal panel they cut on the right side of the innner fender to replace it as well.
The only underdash board left in the car is on the driver side under the steering wheel. It is a brown panel that is held with one screw and a clip forward of the steering column.
I would like to get rid of the Freinstein A/C he put in and have just a clean under dash with no A/C .
I thought that Buds Mercedes-Benz sells under dash panels ? Will the panels fit any year W113? my dash and interior is black MBZ Tex.
Bob Geco
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Hey Bob. To answer your question about Bud's selling the panels. Yes they do, as well as several others. My little experiment in crafting my own was mostly a way to save a few bucks (and partly to stay busy while my car waits for a sunny day...) The prices for the panels have climbed -- SLS is 100 Euros, Buds 250 dollars, Miller's 169 -- all with shipping extra. So upon the suggestion of other member's I thought I'd try my hand. My car is not a show car but a "driver". My old panels were shot -- so these will be an improvement.
James
63 230SL
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My understanding is the Black Forest LLC in Milwaukee sells the panels too. www.blackforestllc.com 414-228-4899 No affilition other than the work they are doing on my 190 SL (engine rebuild, front sub, rear end, upholstery).
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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James, very nice indeed!
When I tried something similar a couple years back, I couldn't find a decent way to 'crease' the board in such a way as to allow repeated bending... each time I remove it for maintenance, the crease gets more jagged, and I feel as if it might soon come apart from there.
Any suggestions?
Waqas in Austin, Texas
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Hey Waqas. That is a good point. What I did was lightly score the panel board from the back and carefully make the crease. After the foam is on, it is a little more reinforced but I am still being very gingerly with the bend during install and removal.
James
63 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Hey Waqas. That is a good point. What I did was lightly score the panel board from the back and carefully make the crease. After the foam is on, it is a little more reinforced but I am still being very gingerly with the bend during install and removal.
James
63 230SL
Slap a piece of duct tape on the back of the crease before applying the foam.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
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quote:
Originally posted by thelews
Slap a piece of duct tape on the back of the crease before applying the foam.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
Ahhh... duct tape... that universal cure for everything that ails you!
:D
Now if only i could get duct tape to stick without the aid of gravity, I wouldn't have a rusty firewall problem anymore!
Waqas in Austin, Texas
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Hi, does anyone have the dimensions for the middle panel? I guess I could scale it to the photos in this thread, but I thought maybe someone had the numbers. Thanks, Ron
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Hi Ron. I will be happy to give you my measurements except I am away from the car for a few days. If you are still in need then, I'll post what I find...
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Thanks James, my car is not running so I was just working ahead on some of the trim. The driver's side is well covered in this thread, but I've never seen the dimensions on the middle piece. Ron
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Hey Ron. Well, first the disclaimer(s)! -- when I redid my middle dash panel, I used what was left of my original as the template. I had to imagine some of it because the original was in bad shape. And when I cut it out, I more or less eyeballed some of the curves and corners. The second disclaimer is, I am a lousy draftsman but these numbers are my best effort. Here you go!
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J. Huber/20081024112210_middash.JPG")
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Looking at that makes me realise how metricated I am!
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Hey James. I nearly had to look that one up in the dictionary! (in fact I did to be sure!!) Had the tape measure been in both, I could have translated it for you!
I have done my fair share of converting, mostly kilometers to miles, having a Euro model and all. Fortunately, I just checked and I see Ron is from my side -- not far from my old stomping grounds of SB...
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Hey James. I nearly had to look that one up in the dictionary! (in fact I did to be sure!!) Had the tape measure been in both, I could have translated it for you!
I have done my fair share of converting, mostly kilometers to miles, having a Euro model and all. Fortunately, I just checked and I see Ron is from my side -- not far from my old stomping grounds of SB...
Yes, I'm north of Santa Barbara by about 90 miles. Ooops, 160 Km.
Thanks for the dimensions, James. I'm sure this will look fine in my car, if in inches or in cm. I've got the materials, and I'm going to make a driver's and center panel using material that matches the passenger side panel. Not stock I know, but the car will only be a driver.
This is off topic, James made me think: my car, a '66, has US lights, seat belts, but a metric speedometer. It is not a Euro model is it? Is this common? Is the odometer also in Km? (my car is not running, I purchased it apart. The PO said it had 57K miles, I took it to be 57K Km. After living with it a month, I think it has to be 157K Km. Is there a thread on determining mileage? )
Ron
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Can I simply assume that the RHD version would just be a mirror image of the RHD version??
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Ron wrote:
quote:
my car, a '66, has US lights, seat belts, but a metric speedometer. It is not a Euro model is it?
I read that your car is disassembled, but if you have a Body and Paint Number Plate (or a Data Card) you can easily see if it is European or US, see
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=DataCard.BodyandPaintNumberPlate
for details.