Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: jeffc280sl on October 05, 2006, 17:29:54
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Picked up the first of two 3.27 axles I purchased recently. Took 5 to 6 hours to drain it and take it apart. Work completed:
calipers and emergency brake parts removed
axles shafts removed
Pivot bolt/shaft removed
trunk mounted carrier arm removed
pinion support arm removed
axle tubes removed from differential
Tomorrow I'll try and remove the gears inside the diff housing. Need to figure out how to do that. Once this is complete I can look at the casting hole Joe has talked about to see if it is worn. Bearings look good. Plan to replace all seals and rubber pieces.
Will pick up another axle later this month. Decided to buy 2 in case
parts were worn or casting hole was elongated. If I can refurbish 2 good axles I will and consider putting the second one up for sale.
Will post some pictures soon.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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This is a picture of the diff casting and ring gear. Joe has advised us to be mindfull of an elongation in the casting that can take place in high mileage rear axles. You can see from this picture that the casting hole is round and the gear shaft fit is snug. Will post more pics as I can.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) OH Casting1.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/200610611917_OH%20Casting1.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Thought I would post a couple more pictures of the swing axle. You are looking at the hinge assembly and bushing for the swing axle. Note the X channel and hole in the assembly. The X channel helps distribute grease throughout the connection. There is a hollow space behind the brass bushing that is connected to a grease fitting. As grease is pumped in the X channel helps force it out to needed locations. It's hard to see but this joint was dry at one point and there is some scoring on the bushing and axle assembly.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) swing hinge bushing.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061011125047_swing%20hinge%20bushing.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) swing hinge.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/2006101112519_swing%20hinge.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Jeff,
I am thinking of swapping my 3:69 rear end on my 1967 250SL 4 speed for a 3:27. I am wondering where you found your axles ?
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tom
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Check ebay in the W113 and W108 sections and be patient. Also check your local bone yard, you may get lucky.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Good stuff Jeff..............keep us up to date, I'm hoping for more and more photos !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Hi Ben,
Anything in particular you would like to see. The first axle is in pieces awaiting new seals, rubber boot and the like. Just couldn't put it back together without replacing these parts. Now is a good time for pics. I'll also take some as I put it back together. Need an in/lb torque wrench to preload the pinion gear. Anyone know where to find a reasonably priced torque wrench?
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Jeff,
How are the two outer axle bearings lubricated?
Do they need to be packed with grease or do they get lubed by the diff oil?
Beleive there are oil seals either side of the bearings...
naj
68 280SL
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Jeff, just general photos really. I plan to do tyhis job next year, so dont really want to know what to ask for yet !
I suppose the more photos the merrier !
Is it possible to see that elongated hole without so much stripping !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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quote:
Originally posted by naj
Jeff,
How are the two outer axle bearings lubricated?
Do they need to be packed with grease or do they get lubed by the diff oil?
Beleive there are oil seals either side of the bearings...
naj
68 280SL
The outer axle seal is on the park brake mounting plate. Sometimes replacement bearings will have metal shields on one or both sides but they should not be sealed bearings. The bearings do get lube from the differential but I do pack them with wheel bearing grease before installing them just to make sure.
Al
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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quote:
The bearings do get lube from the differential but I do pack them with wheel bearing grease before installing them just to make sure
There are inner and outer seals at the bearing. Although rear axle lube can travel down the axle tube, it should not reach the bearing due to the inner seal. The bearings are lubed by packing them with grease.
Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex
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Vince, nice save
I was completly wrong on this one.
I guess I am relying on memory from far too long ago.
I of course now remember the inside-out inner grease seal on the axle shaft.
The shielded bearings were parts we ordered from a bearing distributor just to keep the diff. lube out of bearings if the inner seal did fail. We mounted them with the shield to the inside. The reason for many wheel bearing failures was the inner seal leaking and washing the grease out of the wheel bearing.
al
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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Ben,
Here is a better pic of the casting and hole for the spider gear shaft. In my case the hole was in great shape. Hope this is what you were looking for.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) OH castingb.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/2006101413826_OH%20castingb.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Had to make a couple of tools for the axle. A tool is needed to tighten the slotted nut on the axle shaft after the bearing is pressed on. I welded this tool together using a 1 1/2 inch steel pipe as the starting point. Two pins were added to fit into the slots and not shown in the picture is a 3/8 square fitting on the bar for my torque wrench. I need to apply 150 ftlb of torque to secure the nut.
The second tool is simple and is needed to hold the pinion shaft secure while torquing the pinion nut into place. The bar is bolted into place using holes in the flange.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) pinion nut bar.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061014133118_pinion%20nut%20bar.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) slotted nut tool.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061014133135_slotted%20nut%20tool.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Thanks Al and Vince for info on the lub.
:)
naj
68 280SL
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Here are 3 more pics. They include the diff case, fixed axle shaft and ring gear assembly. Each side of the ring gear assembly has a tappered bearing pressed on. These bearings mate with a beveled surface in the diff case and fixed axle as the axle is bolted to the diff case.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) diff case bearing surface.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061016143338_diff%20case%20bearing%20surface.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Diff case w-ring gear.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061016143418_Diff%20case%20w-ring%20gear.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) fixed axle bearing surface.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061016143535_fixed%20axle%20bearing%20surface.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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quote:
Ben,
Here is a better pic of the casting and hole for the spider gear shaft. In my case the hole was in great shape. Hope this is what you were looking for.
Yep ..........all good photos............thanks Jeff !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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As I reassemble the 3.27 rear axle I thought I'd take some more pics to document oil seal and rubber bushing replacements. These pics show the trailing arm bushings going in.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) trailing arm bushing.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061019161819_trailing%20arm%20bushing.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) trailing arm complete.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061019161843_trailing%20arm%20complete.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Here are some pics of the pinion gear shaft oil seal going in place. I've taken pics from different angles so that you can see the detail. Pay particular interest to the raised metal lip on the oil seal. The drive shaft mounting bracket is the actual part that is sealed by this oil seal. This bracket has a neat dirt and debre cone which extends over the metal oil seal lip to keep it protected from road grime etc. It is a very neat design that I hope everyone can see clearly.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) pinion seal underside.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/2006101916267_pinion%20seal%20underside.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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More pinion shaft seal pics.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) pinion seal install.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/2006101916273_pinion%20seal%20install.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Pinion seal.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061019162725_Pinion%20seal.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Last pics for the evening. Note the inner seal and the extended base for good oil seal inside the axle tubes. The last picture is of the installed outer grease seal.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) inner seal.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061019203056_inner%20seal.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) inner seal complete.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061019203119_inner%20seal%20complete.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) outer seal complete.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061019203140_outer%20seal%20complete.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Spent a couple of hours this morning putting the rear axle housing and differential back together. Need to align the carrier, preload the pinion, press bearings on axles, install axles, brakes, trailing arms and put oil in the diff case and that should about do it. Here are some more pics.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) axle parts.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061021115530_axle%20parts.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) conn bolt & wedge screw.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/2006102111563_conn%20bolt%20&%20wedge%20screw.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) diff case and right uni.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061021115631_diff%20case%20and%20right%20uni.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) conn bolt.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061021115719_conn%20bolt.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) assembled diff.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/20061021115734_assembled%20diff.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Hello Jeff,
Good job and lots of nice photos!
Thanks!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Thanks for the kind words. I can't tell you how many times during this project I have looked back on your rear wheel bearing tour for advice. Thank you!
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Jeff,
Is there any noticable difference between the left and right drive axle shafts (on this side of the pond we refer to them as 1/2 shafts)? :?:
naj
68 280SL
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Naj,
The right half axle as a small C clip about 1/4 from the top of the spline end. Further down the axle shaft you can notice in the pic a raised section on the right shaft which is not present on the left side. Please keep in mind these are from a 280SE(L)4.5 and may be different on an SL.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) half axle.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jeffc280sl/200610239530_half%20axle.jpg)
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Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Thanks Jeff
naj
68 280SL
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Just about finished with the axle rebuild. Diff case has been reunited with axle tubes. Axles are in place and emergency brakes are installed.
Need to finish the caliper rebuild and then I'm ready to install. A time consumming yet very satisfying project.
Received the second axle. It is in good shape overall but it is not a LSD. I intend to repair and replace all neccessary components and then offer it for sale. I plan to document the repairs with pictures for those interested in buying it. In this way you have some idea of what you are getting.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Had 3 hours to spare today so I thought I'd get started on removing the 3,92 rear axle from my 280SL. Things have gone smoothly so far and here is where I stand.
1) Removed exhaust system ( job much easier because I have a 6 month old stainless steel system. Just needed to loosen some clamps and presto)
2) Disconnect emergency brake cable
3) Remove compensating spring ( much easier second time for this, I installed an Olson spring set 3years ago)
4)Loosen, two turns, slip nut on drive shaft mid section. (made a 46mm wrench as per BBB, made this job a snap)
5) Disconnect rear drive shaft to axle connection.
6) Disconnect trailing arm to body and remove L&R coil springs. (see note above for comp spring)
This week I expect to complete the following steps and remove the old axle.
1) Disconnect hydraulic brake lines
2) Disconnect cross strut bolts 7&9
3) Loosen lower shock bolts
4) Raise and support rear axle and remove hex bolt in trunk disconnect shock bolts and lower axle.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Old axle is out and will do some cleaning of road grime under the car today. Lowering the axle from under the car went well.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Mounted the new axle yeasterday, Secured the cross strut (did not remove it or change adjustments) and main trunk carrier. Connected the drive shaft and shocks. Caliper rebuild kit came yesterday. Worked on those in anticipation of needing them soon. Having a little trouble with the dirt guards on the calipers. I'll figure it out. Need to finish the brakes and connect lines, hookup emergency brake ( W108 cables are too short, dangit) Need to install springs and trailing arms and tighten the mid universal drive shaft nut. Then check rear geometry using Arthur's tool. I'm expecting it to be as good as before. We shall see later this weekend.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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The axle is securly installed as are the springs and trailing arms. The mid section drive shaft nut has been tightened and I've checked the geometry using Arthur's tool. I'm happy to say no adjustments were needed as hoped. I did not remove the cross strut and was very careful to align and adjust the carrier arm so it went as planned. Tomorrow I'll hook up the emergency brake cables, install the calipers and bleed the brakes. I have this feeliong I've forgotten something. Should finish tomorrow and will go through a check list before taking it for a spin. All in all it's been a fun project. Can't wait to take it out.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Completed the project last night and took the SL out for a spin. For those that have a manual transmission, as I do, I think you will like the change very much. With the old axle I felt first gear was way too low and there was a fairly urgent need to shift into second. Now take off from start feels like a modern manual transmission car. Highway driving was very smooth with less vibration from the engine. I figure about a 20% reduction in rpms. Now I need to have the speedo adjusted. I highly recommend the gear change for those with a manual transmission.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Hello Jeff - - I am one of the fortunate few other Pagoda guys who have a 3.27 rear end in my car. However I have not , as yet , had the speedo re-calibration done. Could you post the details when you have successfully completed that?
Regards and thanks for the photos,
Larry in CA
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Will do Larry. I'm glad you like the upgrade. How many tickets do you have because of the speedo?
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Replaced my 4.08 axle several years ago with a 3.27 and I have an automatic. It made the car much nicer to drive. It was one of those modifications that was well worth the effort. The speedo reads low and I just multiply the indicated speed by 1.25 like 40 is really 50, 60 is really 75. I take a quarter of the indicated speed and add it. I have gotten so used to it that it's automatic. I have never received an answer why MB put a 4.08 axle into those cars. It makes no sense. The acceleration of my car is very satisfactory, it just stays in a lower gear longer. I can out accelerate most cars on the road and on the freeway.
'69 280SL,Signal Red,113044-12-007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/theengineer/20051219121123_Drehstern.gif)
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Thanks for the input on auto tran SLs. I was reluctant to recommend the change because I have the manual.
Have you looked into buying a ratio converter box? I'm just starting to look into them. They would go in-line somewhere with the speedo cable to compensate for the rear change. Seems like a good way to go as it would take care of the odometer also.
I've found lots of info on odometer gear changes but very little on the speedo itself. I suppose this is because of the magnetic nature of it.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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I have been following this thread very closely as it is something I keep thinking about doing but can’t quite pluck up the courage, or the cash for that matter.
However, I would be interested to learn from Peter and those who have carried out the change to auto cars how they behave when starting from rest in second gear. Is this OK and on what sort of incline do you have to force the use of first gear.
Great thread Jeff thanks.
David Brough
1969 280SL
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David,
One member here had Gernold at SL Tech instsall a first gear start system on an automatic transmission 280SL. I don't know if this was done in conjunction with a lower axle ratio, but it would make sense. I have no idea what the cost would be for this modification.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Thanks Rodd, that would seem to make a lot of sense when done in conjunction with a diff change to make the auto a proper 4 speed. I don't suppose anyone knows how it works do they?
David Brough
1969 280SL
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
Thanks Rodd, that would seem to make a lot of sense when done in conjunction with a diff change to make the auto a proper 4 speed. I don't suppose anyone knows how it works do they?
David Brough
1969 280SL
A Dalton ( whatever happened to him anybody know? ) devised a method and mentioned it on here but I can't find it.
Maybe someone has the item numer.
This is one of those IMPORTANT topics that should be included in the WORKSHOP MANUAL?????? but it has been swallowed up in the topic list and not easily found by the 'search' because you have to know exactly what words were used in the discussion.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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If anyone wants to repeat this here is a 3.27 on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170080500993&rd=1
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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It would seem that you could use some sort of rpm sensor controling the kick down solenoid. Below 900 rpm and the kickdown would be active which would give you first gear. Maybe one of the later RPM emission relays depending on the range of the relay.
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quote:
Originally posted by 66andBlue
If anyone wants to repeat this here is a 3.27 on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170080500993&rd=1
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
The axle in the foreground of the picture in the Ebay auction is for a 300SEL with air suspension. It's most likely is just the axle that was closest to the door when they went to take the photo. 300's had rear calipers that floated on the axle and had radius arms that held them to the chassis.
300's also had a rear anti-sway bar. Now that would make a cool addition. Has anyone tried to modify one to fit a pagoda??
Al
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
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Hi Guys,
Well thanks to Joe A., Carling has a brand new (OK, you know what I mean--thoroughly reconditioned) 3.27 diff, installed without a hitch by Steve our friendly resident race car mechanic! What a difference.
May have to consider the kick-down switch, because she's a little slow off the mark now, but highway driving (in fact all driving) is soooo much more enjoyable. We put in a new exhaust while we were at it, and her underside looks positively new.
Now for that stumbling ignition; Pertronix to the rescue, to be installed next week. Many thanks to all on this forum for the great advice; there is not a time I take Carling out for a spin that someone doesn't look admiringly or say how lovely she is!
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
You only need 2 tools in life: WD40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop.
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Just returned from my first long trip with the 3.27 axle. It was over 300 miles at an average speed of 70mph. 24.2 mpg was the fuel consumption rate. I thought that was very good. Comments?
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Joe Alexander made the following video on the 3.27 rear axle conversion.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6365474313884505435&hl=en
Down load video for best quality....
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I just got my 3.27 from pick a part yay.I guess i have a new project
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Babak,
Let me know if you have any questions. I'll be happy to answer what I can.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Jeff,
I picked up a 3.27 axle recently and there is a very slight amount of play (about 1/16") when rotating the wheel back and forth. It is nothing like what Joe demonstrates in his video. Do you think this would be a good candidate for a conversion? Is some play normal or acceptable? I plan to compare to my existing 3.92 axle.
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois
1970 280SL Light Ivory
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Frank,
I could not find the spec Joe refers to in the video. The play you describe would not stop me from tearing into the differential to inspect the yoke that Joe talks about. That's the only way I can think of to absolutely determine the viability of using it as a replacement for your SL. Let me know if you decide to proceed and have any questions about breaking it down for inspection.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Did you get my PM a few months ago?
Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"
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Hill,
I don't recall receiving a PM from you. I'll be happy to try and respond if you resend it.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Well it drives much nicer than before .I drove to paradise cove in Malibu on sunday and what a great change man. Lower rpm and we can hear the radio much better too. By the way 1 thing that did not fit was the emergency brake cables because mine was drum brakes the new 3.72 is disc. Other than that every thing fit nicely. And O YA a lot OF help from Jeff C. THANK YOU Jeff.
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Jeff,
Lot of good info here. I have the ZF 5 Speed with the 4.08 Euro rear end and I'm not interested in swapping out the rear. I am curious though on the rebuild procedure. I've got a slight rear whine and leak from my pinion seal which I replaced when I had my rear torn down. I did not go as far as you did and did not replace any of the bearings, shims, or crush spacer on the pinion. I did replace almost everything else though, including the axle shaft bearings, seals, differential rubbers, hanger tube, etc. I did not go further in the breakdown because I had seen all the talk about "red rouge" tests and gear spacing in a Chilton's I had and did not want to get into that. I fear now that I may have not got the pre-load correct on the pinion nut and have either overtightened it or undertightened even though I followed the procedure in the Chilton's using a torque wrecnh--I don't think this is very accurate to tell the truth. Questions--did you replace the crush spacer, any of the shims and/or did you run up against any issues with the proper mating of the gears.
George Des
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George,
I did not replace the crush sleeve or any of the differential bearings. Like you I did the axle shaft bearings, seals, differential rubbers, hanger tube and pinion seal. I've not had any problems with leaks or noise. Did you open the differential case and inspect the spider gears,bearings, bearing surfaces, etc? When I took my old axle apart I noticed a loose allen bolt which secures the u-joint. I found that odd and wondered what the future would be like if the bolt came completely loose. Curious to understand why the new pinion seal is leaking. I have my old 3.92 axle torn down and sitting in the garage. If you need any pics let me know.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Babak,
You are welcome for the help and I'm glad you like the "new" axle. I drove mine about 600 highway miles this past weekend to see my son at college and find crusing at 80 to 90 mph (I was just keeping up with traffic officer) very nice.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Jeff, I know it's been a while since the overhaul, but how do you set the ring and pinion gear position and preload with the shims etc?
Thanks
Warren Bain 1965 220S, 1989 300SE, 1989 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor
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Waren,
Here is an excellent description of process. I used an in/lb torque wrench instead of the weights. Other than that and the fact that the discussion is about a Jag I found it very good. Have a look at it and let me know if you have any additional questions.
http://www.bernardembden.com/xjs/diff/index.htm
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Hi Jeff!
Thanks for your earlier post on removing the rear axle. As you look over your steps below, would you add any add'l information to help me as I plan to drop mine? Or are your steps complete? Any add'l hints, tips, advice?
I replaced my pinion seal a year ago, but still have sepage coming from somewhere... I cant seem to locate the slight drip, but know it is not from the pinion...
Thanks!
Bob
quote:
Originally posted by jeffc280sl
Had 3 hours to spare today so I thought I'd get started on removing the 3,92 rear axle from my 280SL. Things have gone smoothly so far and here is where I stand.
1) Removed exhaust system ( job much easier because I have a 6 month old stainless steel system. Just needed to loosen some clamps and presto)
2) Disconnect emergency brake cable
3) Remove compensating spring ( much easier second time for this, I installed an Olson spring set 3years ago)
4)Loosen, two turns, slip nut on drive shaft mid section. (made a 46mm wrench as per BBB, made this job a snap)
5) Disconnect rear drive shaft to axle connection.
6) Disconnect trailing arm to body and remove L&R coil springs. (see note above for comp spring)
This week I expect to complete the following steps and remove the old axle.
1) Disconnect hydraulic brake lines
2) Disconnect cross strut bolts 7&9
3) Loosen lower shock bolts
4) Raise and support rear axle and remove hex bolt in trunk disconnect shock bolts and lower axle.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Jeff,
The allen bolt I think you mention is the one that secures the sliding joint. I have heard that if this bolt does come loose that the sliding joint can separate from the differential and flail around causing considerable damage not only to itself but also the differential and axle housing on that side. For that reason, it is suggested that whenever the axle shaft on that side is removed, that the integrity of that bolt i.e. the torque setting be checked. As I recall, when I had mine apart, I also used some lock tight on this bolt.
George Des
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Hi Bob,
Those are the basic steps. Please be careful around the springs especially the compensating spring. Have a look at the BBB for the steps involved in removing the axle and trailing arms. I seem to remember Joe mentioning a very good way to remove the compensating spring. Suggest you look for it. It may have involed removing the coil springs first to releive as much tension as possible. The axle shaft ends need to be supported by the fully extended shock absorbers so the compensating spring tension is as little as possible. You may be able to remove the lower shock bolt and further reduce spring tension on the swing axle side. Just be very careful. Using a spring compressor releive spring tension and then remove the two bolts that hold the stop for the spring. Then remove the spring.
Not sure this step is needed. Just about all of the axles I have seen for sale have the compensating spring still installed. I was refurbing the axle and needed to do this step at some point.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Amen. Had it come loose on a 111 Coupe- tore up the diff housing. Bye, bye rear end.
quote]Originally posted by George Des
Jeff,
The allen bolt I think you mention is the one that secures the sliding joint. I have heard that if this bolt does come loose that the sliding joint can separate from the differential and flail around causing considerable damage not only to itself but also the differential and axle housing on that side. For that reason, it is suggested that whenever the axle shaft on that side is removed, that the integrity of that bolt i.e. the torque setting be checked. As I recall, when I had mine apart, I also used some lock tight on this bolt.
George Des
[/quote]
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Jeff, thanks for your reply. I was also wondering about selecting the correct shims so the gears mesh properly. My service manual is a little sketchy on this and I'll probably have to get the ponton 190 service manual.
Thanks
Warren Bain 1965 220S, 1989 300SE, 1989 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor
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Waren,
I did not tear down mt rear axle to this level. Had a look at the 220S parts list and it shows spacing washers from .8mm to 1.5mm for this purpose. The books I have do not address details at this level.
Good luck finding the information.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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I know that the 108 4.5 rear end will work. How about the the 300 sel 6.3 ?
Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"
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Hill,
I'm not familiar with the 300SEL rear axle. JA17 is your best source of information.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Hello Hill,
The 300Se, SEL sedans (W109) chassis all had air suspensions. The rear differentials will not bolt up to a W113 without major reconstruction of the chassis.
The 300SEL 6.3 did have the air suspension also and had a 2.87 ratio!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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JEFFC280 + JA17 Thanks for the replies. Things like this make this such a good site :) No politics religion or name caling. People acting like adults, whood a thunk that.
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Are there any ring and pinions between the 3.92 abd the 3.27 that fit a w113? I think a 3.27 is too tall for an automatic starting in 2nd gear.
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As I am searching for a 1:3.27 diff I thought I'd trawl SLS's pages to see what they offer. From what I can see, and from little I understand, I think that their page shows some gears that look like a replacement for the original ones that seem to give the 1:3,27 ratio. I've attached a photo. Look at part 20. When one clicks on that part you are taken to the detail page which shows a variable from the 1:4,08 to the 1:3,27.
It may be necessary to go to their webpage to see what I mean (link below) but is it possible to have a set of different 'bits' that one can fit into the original housing and get different gearing?
http://www.sls-hh-catalogue.de/bin/dbframes.phtml?mid=IN02
If so, is it just a case of purchasing the new parts at the desired ratio and fitting them, he asks, expecting the answer 'no.'
James
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) diff.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/jameshoward/200821122450_diff.jpg)
182.77 KB
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quote:
Originally posted by Buz
Are there any ring and pinions between the 3.92 abd the 3.27 that fit a w113? I think a 3.27 is too tall for an automatic starting in 2nd gear.
Yes:
3.75 on some early 230SLs
3.69 diff casing???
3.46 The diff casing is bigger too
naj
68 280SL
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I’ve been pondering the possibility of an axel change as my 4.08 280 auto can be a bit frantic at speeds above 60mph. In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall and have been told that the 3.46 axel from a 107 350SL will fit with little modification. Has anyone any information on this as the ratio sounds about spot on for an auto.
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
I’ve been pondering the possibility of an axel change as my 4.08 280 auto can be a bit frantic at speeds above 60mph. In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall and have been told that the 3.46 axel from a 107 350SL will fit with little modification. Has anyone any information on this as the ratio sounds about spot on for an auto.
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
David,
A 107 has a different independent suspension setup.
You want an axle from a 280SE 3.5
I got a 3.46 limited slip diff out of one. It has the bigger diff case with an oil cooler tube.
There are some out there with a 3.69 as well.
naj
68 280SL
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Thanks Naj, I think when a 350 was talked about I assumed it was a 107 but they must have meant the 3.5 280 as youy say.
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall ....
Having driven one, I would disagree. It's fine.
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
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quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall ....
Having driven one, I would disagree. It's fine.
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
Not sure I got you on this...
do you mean the 3.27 ratio gears shown on the SLS site will fit in the original 280sl diff housing? :?:
Philippe from Paris
'71 280SL manual 4sp
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Thanks Rodd that’s very interesting. I haven’t actually driven a car with a lower ratio and was just going on what I had heard which all seemed logical with the auto being closer to a 3 speed than 4.
I would certainly be interested to learn more of your driving experience and thoughts on the differences. I am mainly interested in set off, low speed and incline performance. I would certainly be happy sacrificing a fair element of initial acceleration for a more relaxed cruise but would not want to end up with a car that struggled significantly on any sort of incline.
I notice that SLS list a 3.25 crown wheel and pinion which is quite reasonably price in comparison to the others and this could be an option. I assume it will fit straight into the existing casing?
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
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Hi David,
I am seeing the garage on Friday to see what they have 'round the back, with a view to having the swap. As I do mainly motorway miles I am looking forward to a more relaxed ride, but as I live in central London, am curious about the take off and slow speed impact. I'm sure it's fine otherwise more people would have made a point of it. I will let you know how I get on as I'm looking to have it fitted before a trip to South of France in early March.
By the way all, I think the pattern making kit has arrived and I will tear it open when I'm back in town on Friday.....cocomats
quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
Thanks Rodd that’s very interesting. I haven’t actually driven a car with a lower ratio and was just going on what I had heard which all seemed logical with the auto being closer to a 3 speed than 4.
I would certainly be interested to learn more of your driving experience and thoughts on the differences. I am mainly interested in set off, low speed and incline performance. I would certainly be happy sacrificing a fair element of initial acceleration for a more relaxed cruise but would not want to end up with a car that struggled significantly on any sort of incline.
I notice that SLS list a 3.25 crown wheel and pinion which is quite reasonably price in comparison to the others and this could be an option. I assume it will fit straight into the existing casing?
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
paulr
lovely 1970 280 SL
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quote:
Not sure I got you on this...
do you mean the 3.27 ratio gears shown on the SLS site will fit in the original 280sl diff housing? :?:
Philippe from Paris
'71 280SL manual 4sp
No, Philippe,
You need to get a complete axle with the 3.27 ratio.
The diff casing (pumpkin?) from the 280 SL is too small for that gear set.
Have a look at Joe Alexander's video about the back axle.
naj
68 280SL
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quote:
Originally posted by philmas
Not sure I got you on this...
do you mean the 3.27 ratio gears shown on the SLS site will fit in the original 280sl diff housing?
No, I mean I disagree that it would be "too tall" for comfortable driving. But, I forgot that there should have been an asterisk on this point.
I drove Tom Sargeant's 280SL with the 3.27:1 ratio differential, but it also had the first gear start installed by Gernold at SL Tech. So, the takeoff was fine, but it was always in first gear!
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
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Does any one have any experience how a taller dif goes in a 4 speed manual? Most of my driving is on open road and 3000+RPM for 100kph is quite high and I would love to drop the revs down.
thanks
Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200
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Garry,
IMHO the 3,27 rear axle is perfect with a 4 speed manual transmission.
As I recall there is about a 20% reduction in rpms. 100 kph would be about 2400 rpms. The car is quieter and smoother as a result. I get about 24 miles per gallon on the highway. I plan to take some more mileage data in the next 2 months as weather improves. You can calculate the rpms by going to the following site;
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_speed_rpm.htm
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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JamesHoward referenced a well documented procedure for increasing the preload on the pinion which ostensibly was used to insure that the bearings were also not being overloaded in the process. I found several very arbitrary issues with the procedure described by the author and wrote to ask for some reference to his chosen increments of turns (1/8 inch of a turn or 15 degrees of rotation per increment of measurement) of resistance of the pinion to rotation. Perhaps he'll answer or perhaps not. [Addendum Apr 4: he answered -- see his response at the bottom of this message. He confirmed my suspicians in his own way]. I must however point out that the procedure is applying in increase in loads on the bearings... and the magnitude of load increase is unknown and can't be calculated or approximated analytically because the proportion of total compression being applied to the crush sleeve and that being applied to the bearings is unknown.
To figure out how much load is being applied to the bearings (and hence to prevent overloading them), each instance of this procedure on each automobile's rear-end must know the bearing surface area's of the pinion shoulder on the crush sleeve, the crush sleeve's elastic properties (modulus of elasticity), the pitch of the pinion threads (on which the nut is being rotated), the bearing area of the rollers on their races, and the sundry other compressive loads being absorbed... to name just the obvious variables.
In fact, shouldn't the bearings actually have no load on them... i.e. roughly 0 load rather than being compressively loaded? I make this assertion because wheel bearings for example never have a compressive load on them in their steady state condition (i.e. they actually are supposed to have some "end-play" when being adjusted... which means no compressive load of bearings against their races. The bearing compressive loads only occur with the weight of the car on the spindles and in turns (lateral forces when turning corners addto the compression on the wheel bearings... though not that much).
I also make this assertion because I've worked in an industry where bearing's on spindles must not only have extremely low "wobble" (measured in nanometers ===> billionths of meters), must induce nearly no vibration (measured also in nanometers), and last for 7-10 years of continuous (always on) use.... as well as frequent on/off utilization (3-4 times / hour for life time)... which applies great loads during the torque required to get to some rotational speed... oh, did I mention the rotational speeds are measured in double digit thousands of rpm's.? A bearing "pre-load" is indeed applied during asm, but the ability to define how much pre-load requires development experiments with many measures of "wobble" and many other parameters(vibration, transient vibrations,etc) on hundreds of units in relation to the reliability of the bearings to funtion for 7-10 years without degradation in performance attributes.... certainly not wearing to the point of failure. In mfg'ing the issue of how to reliably measure the set pre-load is a non-trivial pursuit with frequent tooling calibration required.
Now, I admit that automobile bearings are not nearly as sensitive in function, but that they have a relationship of load to life of reliable function before bearing failure. If you've even had a front wheel bearing go out on you while driving you'll now what I'm referring to ---oh, and the trailers or F150's or other light duty load hauling vehicles you see stranded on the side of the freeway because the wheel bearing failed is not a rare event... they failed due to either insufficient lubricant, which is usuually due to overheating, which is most often due to bearing's being over-loaded..... either because they were improperly adjusted when assembled to the spindles, or the weight on the vehicle was beyond the load bearing capacity of the bearings.
I'm not saying the procedure described didn't or won't work on the vehicle to which the procedure was applied, at the condition of the bearings at the time it was applied, but that the procedure leaves everything to be desired about the function to which it's applied... which is to insure the pinion bearings have the required load --- not to much, not too little, and most probably actually no load ---- and the procedure has no means of insuring that too much load isn't being applied... no matter what the increment of Nut turns are between measurements of torque (by levers and weights or with a torque wrench) unless the prescribed mfg'er's torque limts (tolerance) is being used.
Author's response to my query to him about the procedure's inherent lack of bearing load risks and issues:
This procedure is intended as a last resort. [bold highlight is mine.]
Example. The noise is driving you crazy, and before a diff rebuild you are going to try something radical.
I did not buy an inch pound torque wrench because this procedure is such a risk. As you noted there is no defining point where the pre-load moves from the crush sleeve and directly to the bearing.
Since I don't believe that simply reproducing the original pre-load will guarantee the elimination of the whine, the idea was to limit the excessive movement of the pinion gear which should result in a reduction of the diff noise.
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
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Longtooth,
I always enjoy your explanations and the depth of the technical analysis.
Thank you,
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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quote:
In fact, shouldn't the bearings actually have no load on them... i.e. roughly 0 load rather than being compressively loaded?
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
Yes you're right - no load while running...
Here's my understanding of it (from a John Deere tech.)
When running, the crown wheel is pushing the pinion towards the front of the car and effectively takes the preload off the front bearing.
If no preload was set, the pinion would flop about and ruin the bearing and the teeth.
The normal way to set it was to set a minimum back lash and measure it with a dial gage, and then remove a set thickness of shims.
With the crush sleeve, it is set by measuring drag on the pinion using an inch-pound torque wrench (I was told!)
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=215249&highlight=pin+wrench
naj
68 280SL
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Naj, thanks.... I made an implicit assumption about the pinion being pushed one direction or the other while under load, but if one bearing is being unloaded by the force under load, then the other's being compressed more, so the explanation doesn't cover the concern. Needless to say, the front bearing (one closest to drive line) would get reduced load (force)... how much is another issue though, but the rear bearing would become more compressed.
The entire scenario described in the procedure posted by Jeff C., while nicely executed without any expense in purchased measurement or other materials, and very well documented and shown on the web-site, doesn't address any bearing loads, estimates of same, limits on the procedure, or those load reduction magnitudes that relate to thermal expansion in any given application (i.e. specific rear end designs).
I understand it as a last ditch attempt to see if it works to quell the noise (whine) in a rear-end before going into the rear-end to change bearings, crush sleeve, add/remove shims, etc.... but if the load get's to high, then the bearings will fail and the entire rear-end's in jeoprody... a far greater problem and expense to remedy than doing it according to hoyle initially.
My intent on posting regards the procedure shown was simply to give a heads up to those that may believe this is a "kosher" short-cut method of adjusting the preload on the pinion. It's a short-cut alright.... but so would be just cranking down on the Nut an arbitrary amount (by degrees of rotation) .... 10 degrees?, 5? or 25? or why not 180 degrees?.... without all the rest of the procedure and measurement. Both are just as arbitrary as it relates to loads on the pinion bearings.
I haven't heard back from the author of that proceedure yet on his rationale or other criteria he may have used but which wasn't discussed in his procedure. If I do get a response, I'll post the synopsis on this thread.
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
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Longtooth, I am shocked! Do you mean to tell me that in the manufacture of hard drive bearings that you don't use the VW method of tighten it up until it barely moves and then loosen it up a skosch until you can just move the washer with a screwdriver???? :D
Pete S.
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Pete, Nah... I can't recall whether it was a tad, teensy weensie, or an rch, but it wasn't a skosch that's for sure. :D Maxtor used a skosch, which is why, I'm told they failed.
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
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quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
quote:
Originally posted by DavidBrough
In looking at the possibilities I think a 3.27 would be too tall ....
Having driven one, I would disagree. It's fine.
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
I concur. Just drove mine for the first time with 3.27. Tha first 50 feet from stop seems the same (slow). I like the way it downshifts to second at higher speeds. Tried the steepest hill in the area from dead stop and yes it is much better to select second.
Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"
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quote:
I notice that SLS list a 3.25 crown wheel and pinion which is quite reasonably price in comparison to the others and this could be an option. I assume it will fit straight into the existing casing?
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
On the rear suspension part of SLS' website they show several different crown and pinion wheel sets (3,25 all the way to 4,08). they only show one diff housing. As David asks, above, is it possible to purchase say a 3,25 and replace my 4,08? As David asks, will it fit or shall I just ask SLS to send the diameters of all the wheels as go from there??
Thanks,
James
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The 3,27 ring gear diameter is too large for the W113 differential housing.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Really?
Bugger.
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Just thinking about this some more, and admittedly before having bothered to call SLS, if the 3,27 or 3,69 crown wheels are too big for the 4,08 housing that would mean that Mercedes would have had to manufacture diff housings of different sizes. This would seem to be an unecessary imbuggerance and cost, when all that was necessary was for MB to cast one housing big enough to take all ratios and so simplify their production line and reduce costs.
So, are there diff housings of different sizes or is there another regulating factor that dictates that different sized crown wheels don't fit? Jeff??
James
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Just thinking about this some more, and admittedly before having bothered to call SLS, if the 3,27 or 3,69 crown wheels are too big for the 4,08 housing that would mean that Mercedes would have had to manufacture diff housings of different sizes. This would seem to be an unecessary imbuggerance and cost, when all that was necessary was for MB to cast one housing big enough to take all ratios and so simplify their production line and reduce costs.
So, are there diff housings of different sizes or is there another regulating factor that dictates that different sized crown wheels don't fit? Jeff??
James
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James,
I’m currently rebuilding a 3.46 axle which has the same diff housing as the 3.27 and is much larger than the 113’s, the reason for the difference in size may be due to their application in more powerful and heavier saloons. I do know that the 3.69 crown wheel and pinion was a standard SL fitting and will fit in all 113 axles but the cost would seem to be a bit prohibitive at over £1,000. I paid £350 for my axle and the guy also had a 3.69 from a 113 for similar money, I would estimate that I will end up spending about the same again on new bits before I fit it which makes it much cheaper to try and source a good used replacement.
David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C
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I'll re-open up this topic with a question. I want to lower mg gear ratio (numeric lower); I currently have the 4.10:1 and would like to know the lowest numeric ring and pinion that I can install in my 230SL rear end. From what I have read, it would be a 3.75:1. Is that correct and would anyone have the part number for that ring and pinion set?
I just replaced the ring and pinion in my 190SL to a 3.7:1 (from a 180D)and it makes it a much more enjoyable driving car.
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Hello, Jim,
quote:
Originally posted by JimVillers
I'll re-open up this topic with a question. I want to lower my gear ratio (numeric lower); I currently have the 4.10:1 and would like to know the lowest numeric ring and pinion that I can install in my 230SL rear end. From what I have read, it would be a 3.75:1. Is that correct and would anyone have the part number for that ring and pinion set?
I just replaced the ring and pinion in my 190SL to a 3.7:1 (from a 180D)and it makes it a much more enjoyable driving car.
3.75 ratio diffs were fitted to early Euro 230SLs.
In fact, they are quite quick. I had a hard time keeping up with two of them (in my 280SL with a 3.92) one time we convoyed together to a club event.
A 3.69 should also fit in the same axle casing. In fact, the ratio was used on some late 280 SLs, but not for USA or Hong Kong.
In UK, I have found the 3.69 also used on a 108 chassis 280 SE 3.5
There was a company at the Techno Classica in Essen this year offering to fit a 3.46 wheel and pinion to a Pagoda back axle. The diff casing has to be machined out and the price quoted was Euro 4000.00
Wheel and Pinion set Part #:
3.69:1 _ A112 350 0939
3.75:1 _ A113 350 0139
Hope this helps.
naj
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Thanks naj
Both are still available from MB. The 3.75:1 is significantly less expensive and will provide about a 20% gearing improvement. Something to think about for a winter project when I can take the car off the road for a month.
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3.27 on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/71-72-Mercedes-280SE-280SEl-Rear-Axle-Assembly-58478_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQihZ012QQitemZ220243094835QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
naj
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Hello Jim,
The 3.75 gear was also used on the 220SEb coupes.
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Joe .... I feel almost like I am cheating. I located an entire 3.75 230SL rear axle complete with brakes (the aluminum drums are worth almost the cost of the rear axle). My plan is to install new seals, boot and axle bearings before installing it. It should be an easy swap and drop my RPM by 10%. Not as desirable as a 3.27, but in the right direction.
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Hello Jim,
Yes those expensive finned aluminum drums are the same as in your 190SL also!
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quote:
Originally posted by babak
Well it drives much nicer than before .I drove to paradise cove in Malibu on sunday and what a great change man. Lower rpm and we can hear the radio much better too. By the way 1 thing that did not fit was the emergency brake cables because mine was drum brakes ....
Hello Babak,
since you mentioned drum brakes, do you have a 230SL?? If so what exactly was swapped?
I am thinking of installing a 3.27axle in my 230SL and it appears that you may be the only one here who did this! 8)
Thanks.