Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: Pete Franklin on December 07, 2022, 09:53:39
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Hello,
Does anyone know the dimensions or placement of the characteristic indents beside the chrome bezel at headlamps. I'm sure this has been answered many times, but I can't seem to find it!
Thanks all,
Peter
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Have a search for "notches"
The consensus seems to be that they're a mark of "originality" that everyone now knows about so any restorer puts them in anyway...
They were put there by hand and IIRC, seemingly not consistent in terms of depth or length, even between headlights on the same car depending on how Hans was feeling that afternoon
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I believe the inside notch lines up with the notch on the headlight chrome bezel. You can see how the outside seam also lines up with the chrome bezel notch. As stated they are different lengths and depths. Do a search and you should find lots of pictures to give you an idea. They were often sanded off when the front end was repainted.
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The original "fender notches" are made of lead/tin and were applied by hand before the body finish. That's why they are so inconsistent. IMHO they are greatly overrated.
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Great insight - and thanks a lot guys. Definite consensus is 'inconsistency' in dimensions - which is great to know in itself.
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The notches were placed there in the factory. They were put there as guides for front end replacement of grill after a front end damage. Are used to line up the front end lines.
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Thanks Robert - appreciate the interesting detail there. Regards, Peter
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The notches were placed there in the factory. They were put there as guides for front end replacement of grill after a front end damage. Are used to line up the front end lines.
Interesting statement. So far, I always thought they were just cosmetic features to line up with the notch on the headlight bezel... ???
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Interesting statement. So far, I always thought they were just cosmetic features to line up with the notch on the headlight bezel... ???
My understanding is the same. Cosmetic so right and left headlamp bezels were interchangeable. I’ve never heard of them being there as a device to align the front end in case of replacement? I’m not even sure how that would work?
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I am sure Stickandrudderman posted a picture of such a device, or maybe that was just for headlight bowls... (off to the search function)
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Pete,
You might be lucky and still find them there. I am quite sure that it would not have been hammered out by a panel beater.
I believe that most of the missing notches were covered/ filled with body filler, during the last 50 odd years. Mine were.
Regards
Chris
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The notches are created by applying tin/lead and will disappear during a body prep (sanding) for a repaint.
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Thanks Chris - and all,
Body shop carefully looking for evidence of these at the moment. It would be really nice to expose these again.
Appreciate the insight!
Regards,
Peter
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It is likely that the original shape of the sheet metal where the notches were intended to be was stamped smooth by the factory and below the extrapolated surface indicated by the headlight surround. Then the lead filler was a total "add" of material to make the notches. When my restoration was being done, I gave my body guy several photos of those notches from other cars to indicate notch shape and a dimension (now forgotten) to indicate notch length. He had the profiles of the outboard stamped notches to provide depth of the notches and the headlight chrome cover to provide the exact position. He enjoyed the artistic aspect of the job and I was very happy, although he probably thought I was being too particular about something he didn't even know was supposed to be there. He used some type of filler with which he was experienced - not lead.
Tom Kizer
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I always find it amusing that the BaT pundits conflate missing fender notches with replacement fenders. In that context, I found, like many others, that my notches were somehow sanded down when my car was repainted -- I can see them in the body-in-white, but somehow they didn't survive.
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It seems that indents or notches will always and forever be a discussion of authenticity. If not there, it implies your car is not up-to-par.
My car, a Germany model that was repainted forty years ago by a very reputable Karosseriebau in Uhldingen-Muhlhofen, and who also is noted participant in numerous "oldtimertreffen" does not have the noted notches.
Apparently, there was not so much ado back then as it is now.
jb
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Perhaps time to abandon the existence of notches as an indication of authenticity however I'm curious and confused. My online travels in Pagoda territory reveal that while most notches can be described as "indents" photos of some cars show markers best described as "bumps" as they protrude above the adjacent fender surface.
As the notches on the chrome bezel are indented my guess is that originally the OEM had indented notches to match those on the bezel.
Two questions:
........(1) Does the "bump" type marker have any ties to authenticity?
........(2) Typically there are descriptions of using lead/tin to create the notch which implies a "bump" rather than an "indent". "Filler" is not required to create an "indent". It would seem that some owners doing restorations have gone to great lengths to recreate a "bump". The rationale escapes me as I would think making a dent would be a relatively simple procedure - and perhaps more authentic?
Thoughts?
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Semantics! The area on the inner fender is a raised bump to match the raised bump on the headlight surround. It is not a notch nor an indent. To reproduce it, one can apply lead/tin to the raw fender sheet metal or even use bondo (yikes). It is commonly a sign people look for to see if the car was repainted. If the paint in that area was untouched, they are there. If they are not here, there was some surface prep applied which removed them. If they are there, they are either there still from the factory or they were reproduced. The whole discussion about their presence is as superfluous as arguing whether your Pagoda still has the original air in its tires.
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Thank you all - your input has given me a much better understanding.
Very much appreciated.
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If you're going to repaint your car, why NOT put the "notches" in there?
However, lack of notches does not necessarily mean front end replacement. ALso look for VIN on hood, and the factory-looking spot welds on the inner fender.
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Inner fender welds, headlight "notches", and a matching numbers bonnet or hood, are all great signs that your W113 did not suffer from previous front end accident or rust damage. I have always considered these important factors when buying a Pagoda. Just my opinion.
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Inner fender welds, headlight "notches", and a matching numbers bonnet or hood, are all great signs that your W113 did not suffer from previous front end accident or rust damage. I have always considered these important factors when buying a Pagoda. Just my opinion.
I guess that's the way it is now but when did that happen? 10 or even 5 years ago few cared or even knew about this, but now it's the holly grail while almost ignoring the general condition of the car in favour of things that won't make your car drive better. On a number one, 300K perfect car? Sure, I can see where things like this matter, but on a regular number 3 car, not so much.
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I have a really goods original car, no rust, no accident damage. My notches were fillered over some 15yrs ago, so I still have the notches but are covered with filler. Its nice to see them on original cars but there are far more important things to look for when buying an unrestored car. If I was to ever have any paint work done in this area I would like to reinstate them but in my opinion (for what ever it is worth) there are far more important things to look for
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I have a really goods original car, no rust, no accident damage. My notches were fillered over some 15yrs ago, so I still have the notches but are covered with filler. Its nice to see them on original cars but there are far more important things to look for when buying an unrestored car. If I was to ever have any paint work done in this area I would like to reinstate them but in my opinion (for what ever it is worth) there are far more important things to look for
Perhaps it is time to stop calling them notches. A notch is an indent, which they certainly are not. They are a raised surface put there to help align the headlight chrome surround. So I don't know how you can cover a raised surface with filler, unless you feather it out and that would be very noticeable. More than likely they were sanded off, which is why you don't see them any more.
As others have stated, I don't understand the obsession with these bumps. If they are missing it is very easy to put them back in place so they are certainly not an indication of authenticity.
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The chrome headlight doors have identical raised edges that align with the swage line that begins at the headlamp door on each front fender, continues on the door and disappears near the rear of the rear fender. There are no right or left headlight doors, so the vestigial swage line commonly called a "notch" was introduced onto the opposite surface of the headlamp radius on the fender to correspond to the raised edge of the headlamp door so it would not look out of place.
. . . More than likely they were sanded off, which is why you don't see them any more.
As others have stated, I don't understand the obsession with these bumps. If they are missing it is very easy to put them back in place so they are certainly not an indication of authenticity.
Perhaps, rather than a sign of authenticity, one should regard them as a sign of knowledgeable attention to detail when examining a restored or repainted Pagoda body shell. When the notches are missing, it may very well be taken as a sign that someone didn't know, or didn't care, that they should exist. Conversely, when they are there, it might be taken as a sign that those responsible took the time and care that they be properly reproduced and thus may have been more likely to have taken the appropriate time and care with other details as well.
In retrospect, it is probably a blessing that the bean counters at Mercedes-Benz thought it appropriate to produce a single headlamp door frame for the W113. As dear as they are already these days, can you imagine how dear they might be if we had to look for unique right and left-hand doors today?
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Good point Mike! Parts are getting so expensive. Finding a "left or right" headlight assembly could have been a nightmare. Yes, so many original cars have their "notches" erased or filled in when the car is re-painted. Original inner fender welds are probably a better indicator of original fenders. It's just a bonus when the "notches" are there. Getting back to the original question about the dimensions of theses "notches", the many examples that I have seen can vary tremendously in length and depth. Almost anything goes, I guess.
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IMHO, it is all about timing: If the car was repaired/restored during the first 10-12 years of its life and the notches aren't here, no big deal. As long as it is properly documented and there is no question that something was done to the car and it is not presented as "original". If the car was repaired/restored recently, basically, the same applies plus it would be a positive point that an effort was made during the "repair" to stick to original appearance. The bottom line for me would be if a car is for sale and it is questionable if any work was done and the notches would help to determine this.