Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Giles on September 27, 2022, 18:31:49
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Hi there everyone, I really need some help please, as usual I have got myself into hole, i purchased a 230sl a bit cheap and blind, this will come as no shock that its not as good as i was told. It’s got the wrong engine and I don’t really know what the right one is or how to tell the difference. Or even where to go to get the right engine,,and could it be just the head and fuel injection is wrong? Please can you guys tell me what you think.
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The correct engine is a 127.981 for a 230. There should be a stamped engine number below the headcover on the block.
Why do you think it’s the wrong engine and what issues is your car experiencing?
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Hi Ireppond
I was told today by a guy that the engine is a 220 because the the pump is mechanical and the rocker box is square, I haven’t checked the block number
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Hello Giles, i'm no expert but it looks like the engine from a 220, if you post the number on your engine block someone on here will confirm. Also post the VIN plate details, this is on the plate on the firewall in the engine bay just in front of the driver (looks like a RHD car?) and someone will tell you what engine was originally installed in your car
Have a look at this link
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=32671.0
You can find this and information on other Mercedes cars on the home page index W11X
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Thanks BobH, I will have to get the engine number tomorrow but the vin number is 11304220010246 if any one could tell me anything about that would be great. Yes it is RHD car but I don’t know if it was UK or not or if it was manual, its manual now.
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The 113042 indicates it’s a 230SL. The 22 indicates it’s a RHD drive car with an automatic transmission. The other digits indicate the build number. Depending on the type of 220 it came from it would be a .980, .982, .983 or .984. I think these various engines can be used in a 230 but I’m not knowledgeable/experienced enough to know for sure.
Since your car is now a manual, I’d guess they removed both the engine and transmission from some kind of 220 and put it in your car.
I’d join this organization so that you can avail yourself the technical manual. There is so much information there and many of your questions can easily be answered. It’s $30 VERY we’ll spent.
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Thanks again Ireppond, the info is really helpful, it always means not only is my engine wrong but so is the gearbox. I guess i need to fin the right ones from somewhere, any idea?
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So sorry to contradict, but before you go looking for gearboxes, i think the VIN is for a manual car 11304220, unless i'm mistaken, they are difficult to read sometimes. Looks like it was built in March 65, by Hans Fritz on a Wednesday afternoon (sorry made that last bit up!)
If it runs ok i would use the car for a while and get used to it before you start making any major and very expensive changes
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Find a qualified mechanic to help you determine what options you have. I’m in the SF BayArea and have no idea who to seek out in Wales. I know that Colin Ferns, a fellow member, is extremely knowledgeable but he’s in England. He or other GB members could possibly make recommendations.
I think BobH’s recommendation is reasonable approach. Btw, he’s right. I misread the VIN. 20 is RHD and manual.
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Thanks again guys, It does actually run ok so i don’t think it would bother some people but it will me for some unknown reason. Glad it is manual that make it all a lot easier. The car itself has no rust but needs love, poor paint job, dull chrome etc she just needs sorting out, i don’t need her perfect but would like to get her correct at mechanically sound.
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Thought i better share a pic
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There's a few members and visitors to the forum from Wales, hopefully they'll chime in when they next visit the forum
I've not heard of any pagoda experts in Wales, but there may be, otherwise, as Len says, a trip to Surrey to see Colin Ferns would be worthwhile, check out his web site and have a word
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Look closely at the injection pump - it is a two plunger affair, not the six individual lines as would be in a correct 113 specific engine. I would say as the others have, this is a 220, which did use the two-plunger pump.
BTW both the 220 and all the Pagodas have a mechanical injection system. It's the number of lines out of the pump that tell the story.
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I purchased a 230sl a bit cheap and blind . . . can you guys tell me what you think.
It looks good. If it runs fairly well as you say, I would congratulate myself on a lucky purchase, enjoy driving the car and forget about the details. Very few, except you and a handful of knowledgeable observers will know it is not the correct engine. Even fewer will care.
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Yep, the two plunger injection pump engines were used in the 220SE sedan engines mainly. Early one they used this engine in the W111 coupes and cabs also. These are decent engines with a little less horse power than the six plunger injection pump engines. The cylinder heads are also different since the injectors are not mounted in the cylinder head, but are mounted in the intake manifold. Each plunger of the two piston injection pump delivers fuel to one of two distribution blocks on the intake manifold where the fuel is split and delivered into the intake ports of three cylinders at one time. The vaporized fuel hangs around in the intake until the intake valve opens then it enters the combustion chamber. The system works amazingly well and is less complex. You do sacrifice a little horsepower. Obviously it will lower resale value. Like the 230 SL, the 220SE engine is also a four main bearing engine. Using a good used 220SE sedan engine as a less expensive alternative, was not that uncommon in the day. I still know of some over here still powering pagodas. If you just want a nice enjoyable driver and are not concerned on resale value, drive and enjoy!
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It looks alright so if it was cheap and not rusty you're ahead!
Chrome polish will improve the appearance of those bumpers.
A 230SL engine will be hard to find but you can look out for a good 250SE engine if you want something more correct and powerful.
But, as others have said, maybe best to just enjoy it as is..
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Hi Giles.
Welcome to the best site for anything Pagoda.
Why not just enjoy what you have, there are quite a few professional Knowledgeable Pagoda people near Cardiff, none of them are Cheap.
Sourcing and fitting a 230SL engine will be costly, so I would run what you have for a while, before making any important decisions.
Keep safe
Paul
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I have a customer who is just about to convert is beutifully running 230 to electric.
Do get in touch and I'll see if there's a possiblity that you can buy his engine. No promises.
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I suspect that your mechanical tachometer may not be working. The 220SE sedan engines did not have a tachometer drive.
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Guys thanks for all the info it does seem to be a bit of a minefield, there doesn’t seem to be any m127 engines anywhere but i have found a guy on eBay with a m129 that looks pretty crusty for £3k and then i would want it rebuilt before chucking it in. I know its good advise to just run as she is, i have sold quite a lot of classics over the years and often people tear them down and don’t get them running for years and i have always said the same, just use for a while then tear down.
It just bugs me it’s wrong, maybe there is more wrong with me than the car
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I suspect that your mechanical tachometer may not be working. The 220SE sedan engines did not have a tachometer drive.
Yes, but coupes did and there are more of those around than sedans.
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I probably shouldn’t be asking this because it might make me feel worse but could anyone please put a ball park price on it for the UK market because there doesn’t seem many RHD ones around to compare to. It’s a 6-7 out of 10 car
Here is a honest easement
1. Wrong engine
2. Paint is ok but poor quality 6 out of 10
3. Rust free , not a spec
4. Wrong wheels
5. No radio
6. Needs new hood, no hard top
7. Dull chrome except bumpers are new (front not fitted)
8. Dark brown interior
9. Drives nice
10. Gear linkage is like stirring a bucket of bricks
11. Interior is good 7 out of 10
12. Seems to sit level and drive nice
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Hello Giles, i can't comment on the costs you've asked about, but if you locate the body and paint ID plate in the engine bay, this will give you details of how it left the factory, what colour body and hard top (if it had a hard top) etc
if you post the details of the plate or a picture of the plate someone can decipher it for you. Have a look on here
https://palmbeachclassics.com/body-and-paint-number-plate/#:~:text=If%20a%20W113%20was%20delivered%20without%20the%20optional,softtop%20folded%29.%20The%20possible%20codes%20are%20as%20follows%3A
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The key point there is the rust. Assuming you’re right, the rest is a “known” cost so there’ll be a buyer. Not one looking for a show car but a decent driver and one which 99% of the population will look at and think it’s great and never know about the engine.
Red with brown interior is not a common colour combo (more often black interior).
The question then is “is the juice worth the squeeze?” - you could get an engine and tranny, get them rebuilt and spend (pick a number…). £10k. Are you going to feel £10k better about the car? Or will you then think…better fix the paint… so you’re down a rabbit hole. The other end of the scale is “sell it and hopefully end up about whole”. Or the middle ground… live in the moment and enjoy your car. As you say, it drives well. So enjoy it.
As for worth… it’s what someone will pay for it but … https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=35553.0
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I find part of the charm of older cars is how they turned out after making it through their "its just another old car" phase. I have talked to owners of pagodas with replacement (sedan) engines and the owners are happy as a clam as their car underwent modifications in the day to let the owner keep it on the road or in the family.
To me that is special.
Maybe someone loved your car enough to give it the engine from Grandpa's old sedan.
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JamesL I totally take on your thinking and I for me its probably best I sell the car, I will be open to offers how she is and if its not roughly what I paid then I think I will do the work and keep her for a while and get paid back that way
Bonnyboy, I also agree with you I use to buy and sell old land cruisers from Australia and i never wanted them messed with, just back operational and mechanically sound. If paint has 50 years in a desert working it would be a crime to spray it. Couple of picture below of a before and after of the same car i know its not really relevant but some of you guys mike like even if its not a Merc
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You should connect with this member who wants to find and convert a pagoda to electric so should not care about wrong motor. He’s also in the UK
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=35180.0
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So I have found an engine from an early 250se, am I right in thinking it should be fairly straight forward swap. And i think its got power steering, would i be able to add that to my no power steering car or is it all different?
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#10 gear shift linkage should be an inexpensive and easy fix that will greatly improve your driving enjoyment - replace the plastic parts.
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If if all seam overwhelming, chunk it. Pick an area and do it. I am in my second year of my rolling restoration. My first chunk was the engine area. One of the picture attached was the start and the other was the end. Last winter was the front suspension and steering. After each chunk, the car is more fun to drive than before.
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Looks neat Alex and I suspect your spot on I have always hated stuff that’s wrong
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My two cents:
1. Wrong engine
Don't lift the bonnet. I'd run this engine until it falls apart. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Put a supercharger on it for more power if you want.
2. Paint is ok but poor quality 6 out of 10
A good going over with a clay bar and polish will do wonders. Not very expensive especially if you do it yourself.
3. Rust free , not a spec
A real bonus! Not many can say that.
4. Wrong wheels
You have Bundt (like the baking pan) wheels. They were on 70's and 80's Mercedes. You can buy used steel wheels for about US$50 on ebay or go to a breaker's yard. You can probably sell your Bundts for about the same. Then buy new beauty rings and hubcaps, paint them body color and you have an instant upgrade.
5. No radio
If you have a radio delete panel that's actually a bonus. Some people covet them. I saw a period Becker radio online for about US$500.
6. Needs new hood, no hard top
The soft top will cost about US$800 depending on the material you choose plus installation. These don't necessarily need to be installed by a pro. If you had a hardtop you'd put it on on once, kick yourself for scraping the paint, then realize that you'd rather have the top down. It would molder in your garage until you sell the car anyway.
7. Dull chrome except bumpers are new (front not fitted)
Take them off and buff with a polisher. Just the cost of polish and maybe a US$100 bench grinder with buffing pads.
8. Dark brown interior
You can change the color of the leather with a product called Leatherique. Works great. It'll change white to black or vice versa. BTW Mercedes sells red cars with brown interiors now. I thought I wouldn't like it but it grows on you.
9. Drives nice
Super!
10. Gear linkage is like stirring a bucket of bricks
It needs some inexpensive nylon bushings. Easy fix.
11. Interior is good 7 out of 10
Leave it alone
12. Seems to sit level and drive nice
Great!
You have a wonderful car that you can enjoy right away instead of waiting months (years) until its put back to stock. Also no bills for all of that. Take it to a Mercedes event, leave the bonnet closed. People will marvel at it.
Just my 2 cents (pence).
Paul
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Thanks Paul
I was thinking what you suggested and maybe rather than a respray I just ask a body shop to improve what’s already there for now at least. The fronts good the boot lid is a bit orange peels. Reassuring you think the gear linkage will be inexpensive if anything it’s the worst part of the car because everything you put it in gear it feels like it may just come off in your hand. I am also thinking that instead of either replacing the engine or living with the engine that’s in it that I do a bit of both. Maybe I just drive as is while I find the right engine in good condition, have it rebuilt but not fit it. If the old engine becomes problematic I am ready to go, if I restore the car to concourse in the future the engine part would be already done.
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Power steering is not only a matter of having a pump on the engine. You would need a p/s steering box, which could cost you a pretty penny. Then i am not sure whether the steering column connecting to the box needs changed also.
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Giles,
I think you have the right idea. You’ll really enjoy your car. Getting it to where you want it is half the fun!
Good luck,
Paul
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STICKANDRUDDERMAN:
EGAD! A customer wants to convert his (her) 230 SL ato be electric! A travesty!
I’ll buy that 230 SL and your customer can buy a new TESLA…..problem solved?