Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rahul on July 16, 2022, 02:27:57
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Looks like the one-off Pininfarina is up for sale this summer:
https://www.goodingco.com/lot/1964-mercedes-benz-230-sl-coupe-speciale
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I will be there this year. Looking forward to seeing this car.!
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Does anyone know why Mercedes’ did not proceed with manufacture of this shape/ model?
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Granted, Pininfarina is a great name and has produced beautiful car designs, I don't think that's one of them. I think our Pagodas (with a hard top) look much better than this coupe.
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I agree Dirk, to me it appears like an awkward attempt to cross a pagoda with a 330 GT, but to each their own!
Be interesting to see how much it goes for
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Many years ago, I came across a set of Pininfarina studio promotional photos, black and white, of this car. I bought them and sent them to the then-owner, so they could be part of the documentation. The owner sent me a very nice thank-you note. Will be interesting to see whether they are still with the car. I agree it's not the prettiest of designs.
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Having seen this car in person, i can tell you it looks stunning and far better than the photos.
Garry
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Having sat in the car and had a lengthy conversation with the owner, I can tell you is is very, very well done and beautiful. It was originally done for a wealthy woman who wanted to customize her car. It was never a factory project. There was an article in The Star some years ago showing it in black paint. I think silver is nicer.
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I have seen this car up close several times when it was at Hjeltness restoration and one time at Pebble Beach. In the wild it is a spectacular thing to see.
Silver was the original color - for the custom that is. I think it was even in red for a time.
It will be MOST interesting to see what it brings.
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This one off Pininfarina is legendary of course. It's in great hands with Gooding and will bring in the appropriate amount for the current owner, and also grace a new deep pocketed owner's garage.
However, be reminded that the final "as produced" iteration of the W113 body shape was only approved after a very long set of styling exercises. I've seen a lot of them while at Paul Bracq's in 2011, and he shared a number of these with me some of which were presented on p101 of Pagoda Style.
Interestingly, one of the first design exercises for the W113, from March 1959 has the "swoopy" coupe like look of the Pininfarina model, though this design exercise was done with wraparound glass for the rear window. When you are not having to fabricate such glass, or make a car with it, it's real easy to design with it! On the Pininfarina model, a more conventional rear window was used.
For those that know more about the Pininfarina and have seen it, it looks like this is truly a coupe with the top not being removable?
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I have seen this car up close several times when it was at Hjeltness restoration and one time at Pebble Beach. In the wild it is a spectacular thing to see.
Silver was the original color - for the custom that is. I think it was even in red for a time.
It will be MOST interesting to see what it brings.
Last trip to Germany, I bought a classic car magazine that had an extensive article about that car. It had pictures of it in red also.
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Say what you will, I prefer the Pagoda design. :)
Just got myself a new 27" iMac (one of the last), and this is my Desktop background.
Dieter
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It is not a style for everyone’s taste and agreed the Pagoda is beautiful in comparison. The best three design angles from the Gooding photo deck are 1) Front on 2) Dash 3) Engine bay.
Given its rarity and recent wild prices, any bets on its final price? USD$10M plus?
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$10mm??? Yikes, I think I'd take a gullwing, a roadster, a pagoda and have plenty of change to build my collection of dream drivables...
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I would think a reasonable price would be around $250-300K. If $10 million is in the cards, why not $100 million.
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I don't believe the top is removable.Check out several the interior shots showing the B pillar.
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I saw this car at Pebble Beach many years ago. Make no doubt about, in person, it’s breathtaking! It retains the greenhouse effect of a stock pagoda but looks slightly more streamlined and fluid. Did Pinnafarina improve on Bracq’s design? Well that is to be determined by the eye of the beholder. Suffice it to say, it’s a classic design that reflects more of an Italian aesthetic than German. What the final hammer price will be is anyone’s guess. Ideally, it’ll go to a museum to be enjoyed and studied by many as opposed to a private collector.
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I predict $2.8million
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I like the Italian sophistication that the sloped rear window adds and the interior top, top quality. The Ferrari reference is apt. But I prefer the understated stock Teutonic Pagoda style.
Needless to say that the car is in perfect condition inside and out and the Gooding photos are top quality.
An enjoyable read. Thanks for posting,
jz
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Many years ago, I came across a set of Pininfarina studio promotional photos, black and white, of this car. I bought them and sent them to the then-owner, so they could be part of the documentation. The owner sent me a very nice thank-you note. Will be interesting to see whether they are still with the car. I agree it's not the prettiest of designs.
Hi Cees,
you probably forgot the discussion from a few years ago but your photos were still with the car when the Weston Hook family had it restored at Hjeltnes. See: https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=6435
The car was designed by Tom Tjaarda, an American (of Dutch heritage) who studied architecture at Michigan, started his career at Ford and then went to Italy to become "one of the world’s most accomplished Italian car designers." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Tjaarda.
He was honored at Pebble Beach in 1997 at the "Corso Italiano", where the car was displayed and he put his signature on the firewall (see my photo).
Too bad you never actually saw the car, I bet you would change your mind!
Don't miss this short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL2xGsJfJ6Y
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If they are estimating it as 1 million plus I would guess that is probably the reserve. They know it's a little over priced but the owner wants his mil so they are trying to push it over the finish line. Without shill bidding I am guessing it would bid to the high 6 figures, The owner holding out for a 7th digit will result in a no sale.
At a million you are almost to a 300SL roadster...Tough choice.
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Regardless of how we may feel, it is one-off, coachbuilt by a respected Italian house, penned by a famous designer, and has graced the greens at Pebble Beach and Villa d'Este. For those who make the 300SL comparison, one only has to contrast the current auction value of a series production Gullwing to the crazy money brought by the Uhlenhaut Coupe. There are two of those, there is only one of these.
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The price it will reach depends on who wants it ( how much money they have and if they want it ). As an example there are a a few thousand billionaires around. A one off can make all the difference .... As someone pointed out here regarding a 300 Sl versus the "special one " sold for 100x the 300sl price . If one of them want it and they pay a million USD it maybe the equivalent of me paying a a couple of thousand for a car I really want .
Would I pull out of a car I really want because I would have to pay 4000 instead of 3000 or 2000 or 1000 ? Unlikely . And to be clear I am very far from wealthy and work for a living . Having a 80k pagoda for me is like one of these guys paying a few hundred bucks for the same . All very relative .of course it's not a steadfast rule .
About 15 years ago an old friend come to portugal to buy a holiday place . He only had a few days and had asked my opinion on a shortlist . He arrived . Saw the shortlist . Undecided on 2 options he bought both for a few million each . Said he didn't have too much time to really decide so once he spent more time here he would decide and sell the one he didn't want . My wife was a bit stunned until I said to her " imagine we were undecided about 2 places, rushed for time but didn't want to risk losing either places .... And they cost us about 5000€ each , would it be so absurd to buy both ?? Maybe sell one later and possibly take a 500 loss .... Would it be that reliant ?" That was his case . Btw he actually made a very nice profit when sold the "rejected" later .
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I am surprised that anyone for a second doubts that 1 million+ is in the cards for this car. As others have pointed out, the 230 Pininfarina coupe plays in a completely different market to the W113 cars upon which it is based. It ticks all of the boxes for any world-class Mercedes Benz Collection, or European car collection for that matter. It is a one-off collaboration between some of the most famous names in the automobile world, it derives from one of Mercedes' best loved models, and it has absolutely impeccable provenance. The comparisons with the Ulenhaut Coupe in this context are completely appropriate.
Consider it this way. Every Mercedes collection in the world worth mentioning has a Gullwing. Only one collection can have this car. In a world of truly deep pocketed players where one-upsmanship is part of the landscape, the Pininfarina Coupe could easily, IMHO, eclipse the price of a Gullwing. If MB corporate gets involved to secure it for their collection then we really might be surprised at the number it brings.
Price aside, I am also happy to see that Gooding's usually high level of presentation allows us to have access to a catalogue of beautiful photos of this unique car.
Best Regards,
Paul
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Interesting that it is fitted with a K4 auto trans, yet the vin# is 113-042 10
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I have always had some doubt about the shorter gear lever of the early automatic versions but note that this car has the short stick. Makes me feel better about mine. 😎😎
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What would prevent some deep pocketed collector to get a solid W113 or two, and take it to a well known place to rework some of the body (not a copy of the Pininfarina, but another creation) into something new and special?
One could even take it to Atelier Bracq. Have the master rework some of his first preliminary, never-built designs. Some of the other well known carossiers probably will take in work for enough of the six figures...
Italdesign
Pininfarina
Bertone (the soon to be launched rebranding by AKKA)
Zagato
CARROZZERIA TOURING
There are a number of others, but these have "legacy" names (even if the history of them has some corporate "interruptions" so to speak) that will live on forever in the annals of world automotive history.
I'd suggest that a reasonably well sorted W113, and $500K (chump change for the super rich) might very well get the attention of at least one of these houses...
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That's all and well, but nothing created in the present time will possess one special element: History. The Pininfarina 230SL comes to the party with nearly 60 years of documented history.
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Another tidbit about this car:
"Straightaway the results were honored by the high-profile jury of the 1997 Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance, who awarded Hook’s car first place in the European sports car class. By a stroke of irony or chance, the jury members included not only former Pininfarina designer Tom Tjaarda himself but also Bruno Sacco, at the time still Mercedes-Benz Design Chief"
https://mercedesheritage.com/mercedes-heritage/the-pininfarina-230sl
Irony or chance? ???
What about this even earlier Pininfarina Mercedes 300B redesign? https://www.carrozzieri-italiani.com/listing/mercedes-benz-300b/
And there is a third Pininfarina/Mercedes, a 300SEL 6.3 .. but when you search for it in the Daimler-Benz Press Archive you won't find any mention or photo of it. No wonder, it is such an unappealing concoction that the current owner's girlfriend remarked: “So much money for such an ugly car!”
https://drive-my.com/mercedes-benz-300-sel-6-3-pininfarina-coupe/
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That's all and well, but nothing created in the present time will possess one special element: History. The Pininfarina 230SL comes to the party with nearly 60 years of documented history.
One does not do something today like this with the expectation you will instantly create something more valuable than what you started with. I sincerely doubt that when first created those associated with it were planning on multiple auctions, owners around the world and the stand at Pebble.
You do it for the future. The original designer and most past owners and those associated with it are long gone.
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https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2022/08/03/was-this-pinin-farina-and-tom-tjaarda-designed-1960-corvair-coupe-speciale-a-foreshadowing-of-the-1965-model/
No not that Pininfarina coupe, this one!
Looks like Tom Tjaarda and Pininfarina touched another car of the era with a styling exercise.
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Today is the day ladies and gentlemen, get your bids in!
https://bid.goodingco.com/lots/view/1-67ELTH/1964-mercedes-benz-230-sl-coupe-speciale
How far over $1M will it go?
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I thought you were bidding $10mm?? ;)
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A steal at $1.1M
https://bid.goodingco.com/lots/view/1-67ELTH/1964-mercedes-benz-230-sl-coupe-speciale
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I was there and took plenty of pics. The opinion of several people there was while the interior was beautiful, the outside is very plain. No where’s the looks of our pagodas. Also it does not have the Pagoda roofline. Of course Mercedes did not want it.
To be honest in person I thought the rear looked more like a corvair than a Pagoda.
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Agreed. It is very plain and I would gladly have a Pagoda (any model) over this car.
However from a pure collectors perspective, it does not get any rarer in the W113 world and it’s condition, and provenance, is perfect.
I can understand that it is not pure Mercedes’ so the Museum would not necessarily want to add it to their collection.
If one of you on this forum are the new owner, please keep us up to date with its ongoing maintenance and any findings you may come across.
Also your Pagoda friends would all appreciate a drive at some stage! 🙏🏻
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The opinion of several people there was while the interior was beautiful,
Interesting opinion regarding the interior. I think there are some old photos floating around (including in the auction house listing) showing that the car initially had red rather than sand leather. At least the color of the dashboard in black appears correct.
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For the same money you could buy 2x W113s and 2x of the far more beautifully designed 330 GT, keep a pair in the garage/museum and drive the other pair to your heart's content!
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I’m shocked that it went for only $1.1million
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I’m shocked that it went for only $1.1million
Likewise. But the family must be pleased with the result, as well as the auction house, whose estimate was spot-on.
Gooding said, "In Excess of $1,000,000 Million," they didn't say how much!
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I still think it's an insane amount of money for this car.
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I’m shocked that it went for only $1.1million
The car actually sold for $1,215,000 USD.
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Although its interior design is brilliant, it lacks any sense of being German and is far more Italian in spirit. I think the outside is charming, but it lacks what made the Pagoda an icon, namely it’s roof! Beauty is not absolute but rather visceral. How we response is completely unique.
Like the car or not, it is a one of a kind specimen with a brilliant and well documented provenance. And this is precisely why it sold as it did.
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Alas, I AM Italian ;)
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Although its interior design is brilliant, it lacks any sense of being German and is far more Italian in spirit. I think the outside is charming, but it lacks what made the Pagoda an icon, namely it’s roof! Beauty is not absolute but rather visceral. How we response is completely unique.
Like the car or not, it is a one of a kind specimen with a brilliant and well documented provenance. And this is precisely why it sold as it did.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder.
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I am German and I readily admit, that we Germans do NOT have a knack for styling. We are known for a "Teutonic" appearance in our designs. Of course, most people here are biased as far as the looks of the W113 are concerned, but from an objective point of view, it is not a beautiful car. This is very much reflected in the contemporary desire for the model as opposed to other sporty cars of the period, like the Jaguar E-type or the Alfa Romeo Spider. Not to mention the Ferrari Dino as it was in a different league, price-wise.
This may not be Pininfarina's most likeable car, but back in its time, it was (maybe still is) an exotic and perceived as great looking. The fact that "Mercedes did not want it" really means absolutely nothing. Knowing about the self-absorbed attitude about their products of Daimler Benz management at the time.
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I am German and I readily admit, that we Germans do NOT have a knack for styling. We are known for a "Teutonic" appearance in our designs. Of course, most people here are biased as far as the looks of the W113 are concerned, but from an objective point of view, it is not a beautiful car. This is very much reflected in the contemporary desire for the model as opposed to other sporty cars of the period, like the Jaguar E-type or the Alfa Romeo Spider. Not to mention the Ferrari Dino as it was in a different league, price-wise.
This may not be Pininfarina's most likeable car, but back in its time, it was (maybe still is) an exotic and perceived as great looking. The fact that "Mercedes did not want it" really means absolutely nothing. Knowing about the self-absorbed attitude about their products of Daimler Benz management at the time.
What are you saying? You can't improve on a German design, especially a Mercedes design. They simply are the best, objectively, and anything you do otherwise is debasing -- no, bastardizing(!!) -- the car, and you might as well have just bought something else. /s
Indeed, the styling of the Pininfarina coupe is very interesting, and I can imagine if it had a Lancia badge on the front there wouldn't be nearly so many niggles of the design as I'm seeing. The jingoism here approaches Corvette forum levels.
To those that put so much faith and credit in Rudolf Uhlenhaut, know that his decisions were bound by the realities of the market in which Mercedes was operating. A car is not exclusively designed by the styling department. Or any other department (well, the case can be made for the accounting department!). It's a concerted effort to find a happy recipe to build something affordably and sell it affordably for the target market. You build to a price. You design to the expectations built into that category. Perhaps Uhlenhaut would have done so much more with the Pagoda had it not been co-opted by anorak-swaddled old men at the country club and their wives, for the 230 certainly debuted with a certain market in mind: "A sports car for adults!" and ended with an entirely different market in mind, which definitely manifested itself more as time went on. But back to the Pininfarina coupe. Looking at Bracq's alternative drawings, it is easy to see how a car such as this might have been built in an alternate world, perhaps as a motorsport-oriented variant with its fixed roof.
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You can't improve on a German design, especially a Mercedes design. They simply are the best, objectively, and anything you do otherwise is debasing -- no, bastardizing(!!) -- the car,
I am not going there. 8) ::)
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$1.2M USD is insane for this duckling.
Not saying it's ugly, but proportions and accents are not attractive whatsoever.
That's 300SL roadster money, or BMW 507, or yes, that 330GT and then some.