Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Commercial Advertising => Topic started by: wwheeler on June 01, 2022, 21:39:21
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With delays in raw material deliveries behind us, complete suspension bushing sets for Pagodas are now in stock. Check out the google link for the bushings available. NOTE: both 20 and 22mm sway bar bushings sets are available. https://drive.google.com/drive/u/2/folders/1rRQoi8WWADCTlNHsx4tBSqCxhC5kH0eF
These are produced from the tooling that Cox Racing developed many years ago and were very popular. They are back again!
Please PM me if you have interest or any questions.
Thank you!
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I remember some talk years ago about Cox urethane bushings.
Can you remind us what benefits these provide? I believe all my rubber parts were changed in the restoration 20+ years ago, so a refresh may be in order and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, as would others I'd imagine!
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That is a good question Michael. While they are a direct replacement as far as fit, urethane bushings will change the feel of the ride from OE. The big difference between urethane and rubber materials is that urethane is "tougher". Not a scientific term, but urethane will not flex as much as an equivalent rubber material. Yes, urethane has a higher hardness, but that is not only why it is tougher. Mercedes uses a relatively soft rubber compound and therefore it gives quite a bit. Those are engineered so that they provide maximium ride comfort.
Owners that want a sportier ride, may want to consider urethane. You do not have to do an all or nothing change out with the urethane bushings. Different areas can be done as needed or desired.
- Certainly there is a significant gain in handling with the urethane sway bar bushings and is pretty easy to change out.
- The next common change out is with the rear trailing arms. A bit more difficult to do as far as the amount of work but very beneficial for improved handling.
- The last bushing is the flat spring eccentric bushings that secures the front subframe to the frame of the chassis. Obvioulsy this is the most time consuming as far as the amount work required.
These tools were designed and developed by Cox Racing many years ago. Cox changed its business model in 2020 and put the tools up for sale. A friend and a customer of Cox, asked me if I would be interested in continuing the product line. Being in rubber molding for 35+ years, producing urethane bushings is right up my ally. Since I am also involved with classic Mercedes of the era, it was a match made in heaven.
Because I did not develop the product line, I do not have I do not have any specific testing data, but am using a very similar compound to what Cox used (although mine is just a bit softer). I am selling to many of Cox's previous customers and so I am just continuing what Cox started.
Please let me know if you have any questions!
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I do also produced urethane bushings for Pontons including the 190SL. See attached Google link - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MVJ8X8afaa4weSd4nxI8ihO8nroBjJsj
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Wallace, Thank you for supporting our cars.., somewhat literally. How do we acquire these sets, and what is the cost.
Cheers and thank you,
JohnnyC.
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PM sent.
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Hi Folks, with Wallace's permission we can offer a discount on the parts for the folks on the 113 forum here. we are in process of working out a price for the full kits as well if anyone is interested. Please PM me and we can get you on a special list for pricing and work with you all individually if you like or we can mass mail once we get things together. Incidentally, these kits are posted on our website and can be found by typing "urethane" into the search bar on top...... Retail will be shown, however, I will post a limited sale in the coming days. By the way this is my first post here, I would like to say Thank you to all the folks that purchase from us. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for folks like you. Big shout out!!! THANK YOU!!!!!! from our family to yours!
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I bought from Cox Racing and installed a set of the urethane bushings, must be 15 or more years ago. I ended up taking the rear trailing arm front ones (the 'doughnut-shaped' ones) back out as I found they transmitted far too much vibration to the body, but kept the others (at least the stabilizer bar ones and whatever else I bought at the time, will look that up next month once we are back in France and re-united with the car and records).
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Hi Folks, with Wallace's permission we can offer a discount on the parts for the folks on the 113 forum here. we are in process of working out a price for the full kits as well if anyone is interested. Please PM me and we can get you on a special list for pricing and work with you all individually if you like or we can mass mail once we get things together. Incidentally, these kits are posted on our website and can be found by typing "urethane" into the search bar on top...... Retail will be shown, however, I will post a limited sale in the coming days. By the way this is my first post here, I would like to say Thank you to all the folks that purchase from us. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for folks like you. Big shout out!!! THANK YOU!!!!!! from our family to yours!
This is great. For those that haven't heard my story before, when I restored my car 1999-2000 at Precious Metal Restoration in Grand Rapids, MI (now long gone), the owner allowed me to source the parts, outsource much of the sublet stuff, and he handled the rest. No matter what I wanted to do, he was game for it. This was in stark contrast to several restorers I contacted that basically didn't want your assistance, just send checks...so it was a great working relationship AND a great learning experience for me--and a huge burden of research and paperwork off of Precious Metal. They could instead, focus on the work, not getting things.
Anyway, I made several exceedingly long lists of parts I knew I needed. The obvious (everything that was made of or contained rubber) and the not so obvious. I sent these lists to many of the parts supply houses, and few bothered to call me back or even indicate any kind of interest. To heck with this kind of arrogance. The parts guy at Miller's--Mike Ochoa--did take an interest, and did call me back, and we worked together on these parts lists. He knew the cars and their systems quite well, and was able to tell me many times that "If you do X, you also need to do Y" and slmilar. There were other parts lists I also went to a parts guy named Tom Hanson at Caliber Motors; this was before the creation of the USA Classic Center, and prior to Caliber Motors becoming MB of Anaheim Hills. They were, at the time, doing a tremendous amount of classic parts business and were regular advertisers in The Star.
I relied heavily on Miller's 1997 parts catalog (printed on PAPER, not online) as a reference. Mike Ochoa (STILL at Miller's, by the way) was fabulous to work with. Pricing was very good, relatively speaking. Now the entire classic MB parts picture has changed in the ensuing 20 years, but I'm sure the attitude and service has not.
So, the fact that these formerly Cox Racing urethane bushings were being sold by Miller's was welcome news to me.
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Thanks Michael. Yes, having Miller's involved is a big plus.
To answer Cees' question - You would want urethane if you are looking for a sportier ride and better handling. If you want to duplicate the factory ride, use factory rubber.
I would agree with Cees that the large bushing on the front of the trailing arm could transmit noise and vibration on less than smooth roads. If that is a concern, use the factory rubber. That bushing is not much more than a thick flexible mount and is subjected to very little dynamic motion. But using rear trailing arm urethane bushings will be a great improvement.
The sway bay is a no brainer to me. It will greatly improve cornering.
The front flat spring bushing will improve front end pitching during heavy braking and acceleration.
Hopefully this helps.
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Hi Folks, I apologize for the delay in getting back here, and thanks to those folks that PM'd me. It took a bit of time so...... Here is what we came up with.
If this information is in the wrong place please let me know and I will move it accordingly.
We have setup a VOUCHER for our website for the folks that wish to order the urethane bushing kits and individual urethane bushings. We are offering them @ 25% for a limited time. This discount will only apply to the urethane parts for a 113 so if you order other items it will not apply. We have all items currently in stock available for shipping today. I will work on getting the other kits added or so you can purchase those as well.
I cant stress enough, please take the time to measure your sway bars so you get the right parts you need for your Baby.
We do stock the other model bushings as well for the 108 109 110 111 and 112, soon to have the 121 that Wallace has been working on.
USE CODE: PAGODA at the check out
Here is a link for the 113 parts only.
https://shop.millermbz.com/search?sSearch=113+urethane
Thanks Everyone, for those folks that PM'd me I will be sending out some emails to you as well.
The Miller's Team
PS. from one car guy to the community----- if anyone else has any ideas for future promotions that they think will help the community we are all ears. Please PM me with your thoughts and suggestions and I will be happy to see what we can do.
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Many thanks to Wallace and Miller's! I just ordered a kit.
Now that my car is drivable, every drive pushes it a bit harder, and I find my self wondering what a thicker bar would feel like. I would be thankful to anyone who knows of a current source for sway bars? thanks! Mark
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I wanted to add another comment to the discussion of what these bushings do. I was talking today the with person whom developed the parts and tooling for these bushings 25 years ago, Cox Racing. He is very knowledgeable and knows the the minute details of how each bushing performs.
So talking about the front flat spring bushing, he says that the primary function for these is to control the suspension alignment and especially during hard braking and acceleration. It controls the for and aft movement of the subframe. So the urethane won't flex as much as the rubber keeping the alignment in check during these actions. It doesn't so much control the pitching as I earlier referenced.
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Thanks to those folks whom have placed an order for these. Please get your orders in now so you can take advantage of this great deal!!
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Following the instructions for the sway bar diameter, the circumference is 65-66 mm so diameter is 20.69-21. Should I order the 20mm or the 22mm?
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It is common to measure slightly large because of technique and build up on the bar. I also show that the bar is 20.3mm. Given that and the fact you have a 280SL, I would say the 20mm is correct.
Thanks.
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I have an early 68 280 which has a lot of the 250 specs, tall fuel pump, larger csv, etc. so I always have to double check.
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What sort of measuring device did you use? Maybe like a flexible measuring tape?
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A sewing tape measure
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One of the industries my rubber molding company served was the hydraulic elevator trade. One of the biggest challenges was to get field personnel to measure the hydraulic plungers accurately. These were typically larger plungers 3" and going to 8" or so. Some of these plungers were only 1/32" different in diameter and we had to know which it was. Long story short, I became pretty good at finding the pitfalls in obtaining these measurements.
Congrats on the fact that you used the correct type of measuring device. You can't even imagine some of the things I saw - string (it stretches), carpenters concave tape (doesn't bend around pipe without buckling) and so on. There are two reasons your dimension is slightly over what a caliper would measure. 1) the tape is overlapped and is adding a mm or two 2) Regular sewing tape is typically used for measuring linear, flat dimensions. When doing a circumference, the actual thickness of the tape wrapped around the bar will add to the measurement. Diameter tapes which are hard to find, are calibrated for this.
So if you take all that into account, you are probably right at 64mm in circumference which is right on the 20mm bar.
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Seriously guys? ;D
https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/measuring-marking/calipers-micrometer/calipers/6-in-utility-caliper-63664.html
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Thanks Wallace
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Link doesn’t seem to work 8) 8),!!
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Which link?
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Wallace, The link in Dirk’s Reply No 20.
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Hello, I just received my new bushings from Miller's, along with a cool hat.
Does anyone have an idea about how much we should torque the sway bar bolts when installing these new urethane bushings? I had put in some of the regular rubber ones a couple years ago and remember one split as I was tightening the nut down, probably too tight, but I don't want to make that mistake again and I couldn't find a spec for proper torque so I'm hoping someone knows.
thanks again to Wallace and Millers for making these available. -Mark
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Hello, I just received my new bushings from Miller's, along with a cool hat.
Does anyone have an idea about how much we should torque the sway bar bolts when installing these new urethane bushings? I had put in some of the regular rubber ones a couple years ago and remember one split as I was tightening the nut down, probably too tight, but I don't want to make that mistake again and I couldn't find a spec for proper torque so I'm hoping someone knows.
thanks again to Wallace and Millers for making these available. -Mark
Mark,
I believe you are asking about the M14 nuts.
These should be 12 kpm or 120 Nm (BBB)
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We are taking about the bushings on the end links? There are four per side and are on the long 8mm bolt.
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We are taking about the bushings on the end links? There are four per side and are on the long 8mm bolt.
If that’s the case, I misunderstood. I don’t think the manual has torque settings for these. A regular M8 (8.8 ) bolt is typically 23-25 Nm. I did these a while ago and don’t recall any issues tightening them.
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Yes, I was asking about how tight to torque the nuts on the long 8mm bolts that anchor the ends of the sway bars. I assume the urethane bushings can handle much more pressure than the original, very spongy rubber, so I was assuming it would be a good thing to make them tighter than original spec for the highest possible stiffness. I just have no idea how much more pressure the urethane can handle and I also don't want to go so tight that I risk twisting the bolt off or splitting the bushing, as I did once before. Also I'm thinking it might make sense to go up to a higher grade bolt too since that looks like the weakest link in the whole assembly.
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Looking at a generic torque chart, a 8mm bolt wit 8.8 hardness should take a max torque of 28NM or 18 to 20 Ft. lbs. That jives with what Drikbalter shows on his list for an 8mm bolt with 2.5 KPM.
That being said, you will not deform the urethane at that torque setting. Because the urethane does not give like rubber, there is more stress on the bolt during operation and would be an upgrade to increase the hardness a notch. I would stay with what is the recommended torque for that size of bolt. The amount torque is not going to effect the handling. You just want to make sure it is secure and not get loose.
I hope that helps.
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I was talking to a friend who is an expert with these cars. He says that if the bolt and hardware is original, you should tighten the assembly until the nut bottoms out on the threads. Another thought is that you would only tighten the end link bushings until they expand to the same diameter as the cup washers. Never more than that. You can also use the max torque value for an 8mm bolt as another limit.
Using the three guides above when tightening the end link bushings, I think you will get it where it needs to be. Again, I don’t think this is critical issue, it just needs to be secure.
If the rubber end link bushings were compressed to the point of cracking, I suspect that maybe the bolt was not the original threaded dimensions. And also the bushings could have been compressed so that they were larger in diameter than the cup washers.
Let me know.
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FYI, for those Pagoda owners that also have 190SLs, I have suspension bushings for the 190SLs as well as other Pontons. These are recent additions. Send me a PM and I can send you more info.
Wallace
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OK...
Anyone gone live with these and got any feedback? My car improved immeasurably when the old rubbers were replaced with new (stock) but I'm interested in any feedback on the urethane.
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Feedback is indeed hard to get. I know that several sets have been sold to this group. Not sure if they have been installed yet.
These tools have been around since 1995 and Cox Racing sold hundreds of sets since. I am using basically the same compound although just a bit softer. My parts match up dimensionally the same as what Cox racing produced. In addition to W113 cars, Cox sold sets for W112 and 6.3 W109 cars. Many were also sold to modified W108 cars that were looking for much improved handling. I know a local shop that works on mostly SL models (W121 190SL and W113) and has installed many sets from Cox over these years. In fact, that shop is the reason I bought these tools recently and expanded the line to the 190SL. They loved the urethane on these cars.
I wrote a document that basically explains the difference between urethane and OEM rubber (see attached). Urethane won't be for everybody and I acknowledge that. Last thing I want to do is have these parts installed on a car where the owner is dissatisfied and just wanted to refresh the OEM parts.
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I use the urethane bushing from Cox racing together with John Olsen springs, I like the firmer flatter ride but it would not suit everyone.
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I installed Wally's bushings on my silver 280SL. They work really well and improved the handling. I reused the original long 8mm bolts and all I did was run the new Nyloc nuts down until they bottomed on the threads. Easy install. Excellent results.
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I think wsamples installed sway bar bushings.
I have been thinking about what James posted and the difficulty with feedback and reviews. One owner's great handling is another's too firm. All subjective. So how is a good way to approach this?
There are very few owners who had these cars new and fewer that remember what the OEM handling was like. There are those owners who have recently replaced the old bushings with OEM rubber. Most in this group are unlikely to repeat their earlier efforts and replace bushings in order to achieve better handling. The final group would be those with tired bushings. As James said, new bushings do make a difference. So do you go with OEM rubber or urethane?
Do the urethane bushings fit and install as the OEM? Absolutely. Are the current bushings the same as what Cox Racing had for several years. Absolutely. Will the urethane bushings improve the handling? Absolutely. How much? Subjective. For those looking for better handling but are concerned about a too firm of a ride, I think a stepped approach makes sense:
1) replace the sway bar bushings with urethane. Easy to do and easily reversable. Guaranteed to help handling with little effect on ride quality. Almost a no brainer to me. People have changed out to larger diameter sway bars over the years to decrease deflection. Urethane alone will decrease deflection.
2) Rear axle trailing arms. Not difficult and requires unloading the rear springs. I dislike the rear OEM rubber arm cone bushings. They seem to be wanting to extrude out and are always misaligned. Again, this job is easily reversable if it decreases ride quality beyond what the owner desires.
3) Front flat spring bushing. Harder to replace and would require a front alignment. To me, this is for the owner who wants all out handling.
Hopefully, this makes it easier to make the decision on which material to go with when replacing your W113 suspension bushings.
Wallace
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I did Cox bushings on the trailing arms and mounts as well as the front link pins. I this case I replaced the 19mm sway bar with a 22mm unit from a 250SE coupe. It's defiantly a firm ride.
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Thing is that you don’t have to proceed all or none. Like I said, I would start with the sway bar. If you are happy then stop. If you are wanting more, then go for the rear trailing arms. If it is too much at any one point, you can always go back to OEM. There is no alteration to any of the suspension components. Plug and play if you will.