Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Benz280 on November 14, 2021, 18:58:06
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I know their has been much talk about bundts . Depending on your perspective, to some they look great, to others hubcaps are preferred.
Other than the look, is their any noticeable performance benefit given the lighter weight ?
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Any alloy wheel has an advantage over steel wheels due to less unsprung weight. I am not sure, however, if it makes sense to talk "performance" in a W113 ?!?
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I really do not think there is anything performance related that would be noticeable. It is pure question of taste (I like them). And the usual practicalities that we all know from daily drivers corrected by higher than nowadays tire profile (thank God). These would be:
1. More weight needed to balance (as you do not apply them on the outer rim)
2. Careful with curbs
3. Careful on bad roads
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Not a performance disadvantage, but after having them on a 107, they are a PITA to keep clean.
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I think the bundt wheels look good on a 123, but not much else.
They are fussy looking ( in my opinion ) and hard to keep clean.
In fact, when the tires on my 1983 - 107 aged out I swapped the factory14" bundts for 15 " - 16 hole " 560SL " type mag rims.
The 15's have a cleaner look to me and easier to keep clean.
Just my opinion.
jz
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I really cannot agree with the "hard to keep clean" argument. I have had all kinds of alloy wheels on different cars and never had an issue. Not even with the BBS "Honeycomb" wheels. A proper spray-on wheel cleaner and a little higher pressure from a hose (not a pressure washer) is all it takes. Maybe a little agitation with a small brush.
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you can get the aluminum "steelies".
Either 14x5.5" or the rarer 14x6" ones.
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I doubt there’s an objectively correct answer here. It solely depends on the owner’s personal taste. I’ve seen some cars that look outstanding with bundts. My personal leaning is for hubcaps w/white walls. So what I did is go with aluminum steelies and use my hubcaps & whitewalls. If the unsprung weight really makes a difference in handling, I can say definitively it’s not perceptible.
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That is interesting, Len. You maybe lightened the unsprung weight of your car by 100 lbs and felt no perceptible handling improvement.
Yet in reading numerous articles and posts it seemed that reducing the unsprung weight of the car was a positive improvement.
Maybe the benefit is felt in more of a performance car , as Mike Simon commented ?
The rims and tires make up all of the unsprung weight on the car, correct ?
jz
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What about calipers, brake disks, other suspension components……
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I think Bundt wheels are kinda...ugly.
Unless the Pagoda CAME with Bundts, why put them on?
If you must do something different than hubcaps, I'd rather get some BBS RS wheels:
(https://www.benzworld.org/attachments/imageuploadedbyautoguide1362932853-235674-jpg.501263/)
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The rims and tires make up all of the unsprung weight on the car, correct ?
jz
Plus hubs, brake rotors/drums, calipers, lower suspension arm, rear axle, etc. Everything that is connected below the springs and adds to the load forcing the springs up, thus "unsprung"
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I'll disagree with others. I think reducing the unsprung weight, particularly in front, makes a difference. I have had the aluminum steelies on two of my cars (a 250C and a 300TD) and the place I would notice it is going around curves on roads that were in poor condition with patches and holes. I noticed it a lot there. It isn't going to turn your car into a rocket though.
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I would agree with scoot.
I put aluminum steelies ( look like regular steel) with regular hubcaps on the 280 and I say there is a nice noticeable difference. The car is more nimble and just feels lighter. That’s the way I can describe it. Agree that potholes and such are a little lighter hitting.
The 250 still has the steel wheels and the difference is clear. I would put the aluminum steelies on the 250 but I like the dig dish hub caps and don’t want to put the later hub caps that the steelies work better with.
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Was chatting about this in Austria. After discussion, I think I concluded I’d go 15” bundts but not 14s
Still prefer the hubcaps though so have the ally-steelies. Oh but for those in a 15 (not that I could afford the hubcaps)
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Rotational mass is every bit as important as unsprung weight. Zero doubt the overall feel of the car will be different with aluminum wheels (assuming they really weigh less than a stock steel).
I personally would NEVER stray from a stock look with hubcaps.
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Specracer, could you explain rotational mass and why it is important pls. This untechnical guy would like to understand.
It also appears that there is a lot of unsprung weight on our cars based on the unsprung list that Mike Simon compiled. It seems like it is more than just a couple of hundred pounds in our 2900 lb cars .
A few months back I almost bought a 123 Euro 300D that had 15 inch wheels and hubcaps and even underbody protection. My plan was to swap the 15s onto my pagoda and give the 123 the 14 inch wheels. But the car turned out to be a rust bucket so I passed.
thanks,
jz
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I am NOT an engineer. So with that let me attempt... Unsprung weight is just that, its the wheels, spindles, brake assembly control arms etc. Yes this is important. Now rotational mass focuses more specifically on just the mass that is rotating. The rotor, wheel, hardware etc. Think of a bicycle / motorcycle, and how the wheels keep your balance. The heavier the wheels are, the harder the handle bars are to turn the cycle (changing the mass' direction). This mass has to also change direction, with bumps, and even makes a difference in acceleration and breaking.
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As specracer says, it's about gyroscopic effect.
If you've ever fitted skinny tyres in place of fat ones with no other changes you'll notice how much lighter in handling the car feels.
As for unsprung weight:
The springs and shocks have to control linear movement of all of the components listed previously.
The lighter those components are (wheels) the quicker the springs and shocks will be able to control the linear movement.
Dynamically: as the tyre hits a bump it will be projected away from the road surface thus reducing grip. The faster it can be forced back on to the road the quicker the grip will be restored.
Obviously there are other benefits to weight loss but I'm sure a lot of us could do with that!
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I'd also say the aluminum steelies (or other lightweight wheels) offer an advantage in driving feel. kampala's and scoot's descriptions say it well. Their biggest advantage is over lousy roads, which we have many of here. Secondarily in more agressive driving where the car feels a bit more nimble. I've had aluminum steelies on for a few years and would not go back to the steel wheels.
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I installed 15" Bundt wheels 4 years ago. And yes, quite a bit of performance increase, especially cornering. I changed back to the originals with hub caps this summer, but for only one day.
I do like the look, but a lot of sluggish feeling. I am back to the 15" Bundt and I am much happier driving my SL.
Greetings, Urban
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Back in the day most cars of all makes had wheel covers or hub caps from the factory. Aluminum alloy wheels were an optional up-grade. I remember when the later Pagoda cars were offered with the optional Bundt wheels. They were an exciting "sporty looking" upgrade at the time. I still like the look of the Bundt alloys on the Pagoda (in the sporting sense). These days many cars come standard with aluminum wheels and aluminum wheels are less remarkable to most people. The full wheel covers imply a more finished and sophisticated design. The Bundts are a sportier look. I like the idea of having a set of both! If so don't forget the alloy wheels require a longer lug bolt!
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I only care for the 3-piece versions, which I don't think are made anymore:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/55/94/6e/55946e2dc46de90f255d6737d6b419b1.jpg)
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I have a set of four 15'' wheel covers. I think they were once on a 600 in case someone is looking for something like that.
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Three piece versions? Definitely not OEM Mercedes.
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Thank you for the technical info gents. All very interesting.
So what's the take away here ?
Is aluminium steelies with factory sized (?) 185/78/14 tires the best performing combo for lightness of handling and damping etc. ?
Our cars originally came with skinny tires. Specracers analogy to the skinny bicycle tires is well taken.
Or is 15inch diameter bundt wheels with 205/70/15 tires the best performing/driving combo for road holding and grip ??
Of course, we choose our own poison on this. But I would love to be able to buy the orig Michelin X radial that I see now in smaller/skinnier sizes. I love the look.
My 2 cents.
thanks,
jz
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185/78-14s are roughly the same height as 205/70-14.
205/70-15 is a bit taller than OEM height.
Better handling will be with lighter wheels and wider tires.
a 15" bundt wheel may be the same weight as a 14" steel wheel.
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I'd hardly call 185-14s "skinny" tires; they were actually a bit oversized compared to other similar sized import cars and roadsters of the era. My little Austin 1200 sedan had 12" tires; and MGB 155-14; a Midget ran 13". My Datsun 510 had 155-13. Even my 1979 BMW 320i (E21) had 185-70-13. So 14" tires on a 2 seat roadster (with the exception of a Triumph TR6, the outlier!) were by themselves a bit uncommon in their size; they were a bit larger. Probably a more accurate description may be "appropriately sized". In the same era, most larger domestic cars had 15" wheels. Don't think 16s and larger were common at the time.
I run the pressed aluminum wheels and the car does feel a bit more nimble on its feet than with the pressed steel wheels--as it should. I believe these are among the lightest wheels you can get.
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Seriously, I cannot see any reason I would pick one part over another on a Pagoda SL for performance reasons. The car is a vintage vehicle and the joy is in driving it in any form and not to try to race a Honda Civic R ::)
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My main reason to go to 15" Bundt rims is the choice of tires available, less un sprung weight and Safety. The better handling just came with it. I live in the Sierra foothills with a lot of up and down and tight corners. The other day I came around a corner and faced a deer! I was barely able to steer my way around it. I am not sure if I would have made it without this setup.
I do not drive any faster then before, I just like the improved driving experience and the other reasons mentioned above.
I have Michelin 205/65R15 94 H tires fitted which is very close to the same OD than the original setup.
No chasing Hondas here...
Best, Urban
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To beat a dead horse, I have to ask about wire wheels ( with those cool knock off ears and brass hammer ) that British cars seemed to favor back in the day.
Did MB ever put a wire wheel on any post war model ? The Gullwing knock off wheels were not wires.
Are the wire wheel rims even lighter in weight then all the others ?
jz
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One of my friends in Michigan had a Pagoda with wire wheels. They were not true knock offs because I don’t believe there were ever splined hubs made for the Pagoda. But I could be wrong I didn’t ever really look at it close enough. I couldn’t do it without cracking up laughing.
There were some fat oversized American tires on these wheels. There was also some chrome fender spats. It was laughably ridiculous, but so very period-appropriate for the 1970s when somebody did this.
Can’t you just imagine somebody in a plaid leisure suit and oversized aviator sunglasses stepping out of such a creation?
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The typical wire wheels with steel rims are not noticeably lighter than a steel disc wheel. However, if you look closely at the wire wheels on the Stirling Moss 300 SLR "722" you will see the sort of light weight alloy rim wire wheels, often made by Borrani or Rudge, that were fitted to high performance racing, sports and grand touring cars for decades. The splined hub with eared "knock-off" fixing nut allowed for quick tire changes in competition. In the drum brake era, wire wheels were favored in competition because they allowed maximum exposure of the drums to cooling ambient air. Still in use in the disc brake era, they were eventually supplanted by lighter and less maintenance intensive alloy wheels with large cooling slots developed by Dunlop, Minilite, American Racing and others.
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That makes perfect sense about the brake cooling factor.
Were bicycle tire rims adapted to cars in the early days of motoring ?
jz
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My car came with steels and wheel covers, switched to Bundts, didn't like it, switched to steels and wheel covers, thinking about switching back to bundts.
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Just keep a set of both with tires mounted and you can change whenever you like!
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I have on my car Bundt Forged 15" wheels with Goodyear 205- 65 tyres, they weigh 18kg.
I have an original wheel and tyre 185- HR 14 that was the unused spare that came with my car when I purchased in the 70's this weighs 19.7 kg. I don't know how much difference this makes to the handling I have used them for so many years I can't remember. I originaly bought the 15's to get better tyres. I don't know if the Cast aftermarket Bundt's are lighter perhaps someone can say, also what is the weight of the a Aluminium Steely with tyre, I imagine it will be lighter than the Bundt as it is 14".
Maurice
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Good idea Joe! I was actually thinking that the wheel covers needed white walls so maybe I can do them on the steel wheels.
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Seriously, I cannot see any reason I would pick one part over another on a Pagoda SL for performance reasons. The car is a vintage vehicle and the joy is in driving it in any form and not to try to race a Honda Civic R ::)
Oooh....careful there Mike. You called your car vintage. :)
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Oooh....careful there Mike. You called your car vintage. :)
It is in my book. That's all that matters. So is my 71 Porsche 914-6 and (almost) my 1990 Corvette ZR1 ;D ;D
Anything I can get a historic plate on here in Ohio, I call "Vintage".
I have a complete set of early 1980s Pioneer high end stereo, that was called "Vintage" by an "expert". 8)
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Hey, I’ve got a 1981 Rolex that I’ve just been told is a “vintage piece”. By Rolex.
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We are all on the "older" side of the car owner population. And it seems, time flies. We tend to think the "Eighties" were just a few years ago. And yet, almost 40 years have passed.
If you think about it, 40 years before some of us were born, there were not commercial airplanes...
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Hi Guys,
I have an E Type which I fitted new wire wheels and as someone mentioned, they are pretty heavy. I can weight them if someone really wants to know.
I am very sorry that I never thought of buying the wider than standard sizes and I would looove a set of 15 x7 Bundt wheels for my Pagoda.
Regards
Chris
Cape Town
Apologies Guys, there is no point to my post. However, I hope and trust, Santa might pay attention.