Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Drewbg on July 23, 2021, 20:27:10
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new member here, glad to have joined after reading some of the topics. I'm in the Mercedes-Benz world but not really a 280SL guy. Was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what the rarest 280SL or other Pagoda might be? I know the ZF 5's are sort of the gold standard of rarity, but are there any known cars out there that are particularly special or valuable beyond a ZF 5 speed in the world of W113?
For instance, are there any cars with special suspension from new?
Any factory show cars out there that are known and valuable above others?
all comments on this appreciated. Thanks, D
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Perhaps someone might chime in about a "special" 280SL. The red Spa-Sophia-Liege rally car and the Pininfarina Coupe, both 230SLs, and the Frank Mallory 250SL come to mind (as well as the 1967 Geneva Auto Show 250SL that inspired Frank to order his 250SL).
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As far as stock production numbers go, the 250SL was made in the lowest quantity. There are some who even differentiate between early and late 250SLs. There may be some W113s of which only 5 or 10 were produced, if you look through all the possible option combinations and variations. Difficult to identify and even more difficult to put a value on it.
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I would think an early 250 California Coupe would be pretty rare.
JN
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I can't add anything to this conversation other than to say my license plate reads "RRARE1". Well....it's the only one I have. :D
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Frank Mallory's 250 with the special show detailed engine from the factory would be the rarest production car. It is one of one. There are other cars such as Stirling Moss's 230SL with a 250 engine from new noted on the data card and build sheet to be selected for high horsepower. If you search here for Stirling Moss you will find a great story. Unfortunately, the Stirling Moss car may be worth more now that it ever will be again as his fan base is aging rapidly. As for most valuable? Almost certainly the Spa rally car or the Pininfarina coupe which in my mind isn't a W113 anymore due to it's extensive modification. The John Lennon car comes to mind but since he wasn't a car guy and his fans don't really associate him with the car is it really worth what people have tried to sell it for.
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Drewbg,
Would you please explain why you are asking this question? Interesting as I don’t recall it being asked in the number of years I have been involved.
BTW - these is another member in your lovely little town of Arroyo Grande by the forum name “donati”. You may want to look him up here and send a note. He has a wonderful, nicely restored 280 in beige-grey metallic. He’s also quite a gentleman.
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I would imagine my 250SL, in RHD with factory fitted ZF 5 speed is amongst the rarest without being "of particular note".
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They weren't really production cars and their whereabouts is unknown, but Mercedes built several - two or three - Pagodas with the 3.5l V8 as test mules for the upcoming R107.
Considering they were factory cars, they would qualify as "rare" Pagodas.
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Mike,
Unfortunately, cars like that usually get crushed as was the fate of the 6.3. I would imagine without crash tests etc the liability aspect would get pretty high.
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For instance, are there any cars with special suspension from new?
Heavy duty springs and shocks could be optioned for countries with rough roads. Often along with underbody protection plates and an oil bath air filter.
Sunroof hardtops and limited slip differentials are perhaps the rarest options. Or maybe a car phone?
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Options on regular production cars is what should make them rare or potentially more valuable.
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I agree with Dr. Benz about the options - yes 5 speed and LSD rear end is kinda rare. And to add a bit more opinion - my experience with the cars show that cars tend to fall into set groups based on where they were sold - say for a later 280sl - many American models had a set of options as follows:
automatic tranny, 3.92 rear end, power steering , white wall tires- and some had air-conditioning.
Now if you found an American model with a manual transmission, 3.69 rear end, no power steering, no air conditioning and black wall tires all from the factory - (other than the tourist order type of car) you would have a rare car - does it make it more value - I don't think so, it would just be European spec to be sold in USA.
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Nobody mentioned the Frua Shooting Brake yet. With the Pinifarina Coupe and the Boehringer rally car that would be my top-3 of the rarest.
After that, you can keep expanding the scope until you cover thousands of pagodas.
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There were a lot of W113's produced from 1963 to 1971. Aside from the "one off's", I would agree with Dan that it would have to be options that would make a particular Pagoda rare. To me, the most desirable rare option would have to be the ZF 5-speed. I remember reading that there were not many 280SL's that left the factory with a 5-speed. That could be the rarest of the mass production W113's.
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Pagoda with the sunroof in the hardtop is very rare.
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Thank you so much to everyone who has responded, there is a lot of info here that I have not seen posted online. I knew about the rally car 230sl, obviously a very special example. My general interest is 300SL's but I've recently become interested in the details surrounding the W113's and W111's. I have close experience with several very special pre-production 300SL's with curious options, details and interesting histories (to say the least), so I figured there have to be similar cars out there for the W113, despite there being an obvious difference between the models (one race inspired, one production inspired). I have grown to appreciate the W113's over time.
Would love to see a picture of Frank Mallory's 250 with the special engine detailing if anyone has that. Always fascinated to see custom work done by the factory.
again, thank you for all the comments so far, enjoying being a part of the forum so far and reading everything.
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Nobody mentioned the Frua Shooting Brake yet. With the Pinifarina Coupe and the Boehringer rally car that would be my top-3 of the rarest.
After that, you can keep expanding the scope until you cover thousands of pagodas.
very cool, thank you.
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Or Pagoda's with famous owners...
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Main/Diversions
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One of the rarest production Pagoda would have to be a 230SL 5 speed. That option began in May or June of 1966 and production of the 230SL stopped in Jan 1967 so roughly 6 or 7 months of build. They made far more 250SL's in 1967 and the 5 speed was available in a Euro-spec 280SL until the end of production.
In order to assess this fairly, one has to consider only regular production cars and not one-offs or prototypes.
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In this interesting quest for rare, everyone seems to focused on "hardware"; sunroofs, ZF 5 speeds, etc.
If you don't equate "rare" with valuable, wouldn't rare be some combination of model, PLUS a unique color combination? They had a huge palette of paint colors for the exterior, an unheard of today selection of interior colors, and some cars coming in "two tone" (different hard top color with matching wheel covers).
So it would be my guess that if you throw in the full color scheme, with model and maybe another option or two, you may find a number of "one-off" Pagodas...if it was production and one off, I guess that makes it rare. I don't know if it means much beyond that.
I'm not sure what it all means. There are quite literally a million different combinations of colors and options on a Ford F150, hardly any two are identical. I don't know if that actually means anything except headaches for production planners..
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At the end of the day if I had to pick one to go after I choose the Stirling Moss car. Mr. Moss was so ingrained in Mercedes racing heritage he has become a large part of the lore. OK, so you have a car once owned by a famous racing driver. So what? There are a lot of those. The car is a Mercedes and Stirling Moss drove for Mercedes. Ok you have my attention. The car was specially modified at the factory to Mr. Moss's wishes. Sold. The car is just sitting in a garage somewhere waiting for someone to snap it up.
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Kevin Marti, from Marti Auto Works, is the exclusive Ford licensee for Ford's production data base from 1967 to 2017. If you own a Ford from those years, a Marti report will tell you exactly just how rare your car may be. The Marti report analyzes the options and tells you just how many cars matched yours. I owned quite a few Mustangs and Shelby Mustangs back in the 80's and 90's. Two 1967 GTA 390 convertibles, with a rare combination of options, that I once owned, were "One of One" ever produced. Those cars sold for quite a premium because of the Marti report. It would be great if MB Classic gathered all of our data card information and analyzed it. We could get production numbers on options and color combinations.
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Hmm, there are many cars out there that are rare.
But, to me, the word 'rare', would mean that the car is still alive. Maintained by the owner and still around-kicking and screaming.
Owners who keep them up are also rare. It's a big kudos or fist bump to those who keep these cars on the road.
Used to have a 1967 200D Universal IMA fintail wagon, since sold.
But I restored it and found out that it was only 1 of 2 diesels ordered for the US market (got a letter from the IMA factory in Belgium to confirm that). So is that rare?
The one off Frua shooting brake is actually on a small Island in the Atlantic off the coast of Africa.
Walter
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...Marti Auto Works, is the exclusive Ford licensee for Ford's production data base from 1967 to 2017...
If you know the right people at Ford, nearly all of this information is available, internally. We've taken advantage of it on more than one occasion...such as when a former business partner bought a old, used 1976 Ford Backhoe/Tractor from an equipment dealer. We were able to get information on it that the selling dealer didn't have and had inadvertently misrepresented. The truth saved some money!
Every Ford vehicle we've had in the past 25 years has been leased, and has been custom ordered to our specs whether management or other lease. All of that specific detail--the serialization, the production schedule, the bucking--is all information available online to us. Since they are all leased, they get turned in so the information isn't worth keeping or having; we typically get it only to plan on the new car's arrival to us.
Though our new Bronco sport is serialized, it's on its fourth production delay...and we and the selling dealer have little confidence that we won't see further delays. Materials shortages are wreaking havoc everywhere.
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Back to Pagodas, documented ownership of a specific VIN/Pagoda by the legendary is generally considered rare as Shvegel points out. John Lennon, Stirling Moss, Priscilla Presley, Juan Manual Fangio were all once owners, I believe...
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Yes, "Rare" can be applied to a multitude of criteria. Famous owners, seldom ordered options, including colors, limited number destinations delivered to, etc, etc. whatever you think makes your car special and more desirable than others.
That being said, I think, I own a rare car. It is a 1971 914-6 GT built by the factory. 1 of 16 made in 1971. Considering all the fake GTs out there, even 4s converted to 6s. the only one I would be happier with would be one of the 1970 models with race history or one of the 12 original 916s.
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Not exactly a Pagoda since the folding
top umbrella was installed upside down ;D
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/07/26/science/26SCI-LUNARROVER1/26SCI-LUNARROVER1-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
but I doubt anybody would think that this Dune Buggy isn't rare or worth less than the three Camaros Corvettes together.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/07/26/science/26SCI-LUNARROVER-corvette/merlin_191247507_6c243cda-aae5-478f-9963-0c70d003540a-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/27/science/lunar-rover-apollo-nasa.html?